"the mistaken counter"

[WingChunIan]

Leaving terminology aside as every lineage describes things differently, if I understand you correctly I see no reason whatsoever to push your arm across the centre. Again if I have interpreted your terminology correctly, the hand should be perfectly positioned to drive straight into a punch leaving the Wu Sao to either change into tan, biu or pak to deal with the incoming punch. Why add in an extra movement? and why compromise your centreline when you don't need to?

 

[Domino]

I don't think there is an extra movement, just acting accordingly with front hand and changing the direction. Centre line is a small price to pay ..

 

[mook jong man]

Leaving terminology aside as every lineage describes things differently, if I understand you correctly I see no reason whatsoever to push your arm across the centre. Again if I have interpreted your terminology correctly, the hand should be perfectly positioned to drive straight into a punch leaving the Wu Sao to either change into tan, biu or pak to deal with the incoming punch. Why add in an extra movement? and why compromise your centreline when you don't need to?

Because the arm is already out there , your Wu Sau is back guarding your throat , it is not in an optimal angle to deal with a lot of force without some assistance from your front hand , and a very minimal sweep across with your Tan Sau will open up a gap and allow you to more easily get in.

Thinking that your back hand will somehow come forward into the optimal angle and perform a Tan or Biu is not realistic in my opinion , you barely have enough time to raise your Wu Sau as it is , so my argument is that your back hand will be collapsed and their punch will get through or at the very least hinder your movement forward so that you can deliver your own strike

As to compromising the centreline we do that everytime we do a Pak Sau , what is the difference with slightly moving your Tan Sau across to sweep away a punch , besides , your Wu sau is still on the centreline to provide back up.
The point is , the front arm is already close to their punching arm , rather than taking a big risk and letting it get all the way to your back arm where it has built up speed and maybe able to get through the last line of defence , why not gain contact and nip it in the bud in the early phase.

 

[wtxs]

I will have to say this has been the best exchange of ideas in a long time. :cheers:

 

[WingChunIan]

Because the arm is already out there , your Wu Sau is back guarding your throat , it is not in an optimal angle to deal with a lot of force without some assistance from your front hand , and a very minimal sweep across with your Tan Sau will open up a gap and allow you to more easily get in.

Thinking that your back hand will somehow come forward into the optimal angle and perform a Tan or Biu is not realistic in my opinion , you barely have enough time to raise your Wu Sau as it is , so my argument is that your back hand will be collapsed and their punch will get through or at the very least hinder your movement forward so that you can deliver your own strike

As to compromising the centreline we do that everytime we do a Pak Sau , what is the difference with slightly moving your Tan Sau across to sweep away a punch , besides , your Wu sau is still on the centreline to provide back up.
The point is , the front arm is already close to their punching arm , rather than taking a big risk and letting it get all the way to your back arm where it has built up speed and maybe able to get through the last line of defence , why not gain contact and nip it in the bud in the early phase.

I'll try to video something with a student to illustrate my point. If my hand has come forward into the shape you describe if it makes no contact with anything it is going straight into the target with no hesitation, this in itself will diminish the power in the incoming strike. Secondly my wu sau is already forward, maybe you have a different concept of wu sau structure, if you train to hold the wu sau very far back and not forward of the elbow then i agree it may collapse, we don't train that way so turning the Wu into another shape is instant and happens concurrently with the forward thrust of the other hand. Finally I assume that you have turned / angled with the intial response? I understand your claim that stepping may be out of the question given the speed of action but a simple change of angle would always be part of my inital movement which moves my head away from the intended target area thus making the initial strike less likely to land and also providing more space for the wu to transition. With regard to compromising the centreline every time you do pak sau, I can only say that you must do pak sau very differently to me, the only time pak sau compromises the centre in the way I do it is if I apply it to the inside of the arm which I only do if either forced into a last ditch recovery (ie my other arm has been taken out of the equation by a grab or similar) or if the opponents other arm has already been taken out of the equation. I'd equally question your logic regarding the front arm being close to the punch whilst saying the wu sao won't have time to change shape. If the punch has set off and you've misjudged it then if its got anything like reasonable speed and power it is almost certainly already past your lead hand.
Only a different opinion of course, as I said i'll try to video something as we may be talking at crossed purposes.

 

[mook jong man]

I'll try to video something with a student to illustrate my point. If my hand has come forward into the shape you describe if it makes no contact with anything it is going straight into the target with no hesitation, this in itself will diminish the power in the incoming strike. Secondly my wu sau is already forward, maybe you have a different concept of wu sau structure, if you train to hold the wu sau very far back and not forward of the elbow then i agree it may collapse, we don't train that way so turning the Wu into another shape is instant and happens concurrently with the forward thrust of the other hand. Finally I assume that you have turned / angled with the intial response? I understand your claim that stepping may be out of the question given the speed of action but a simple change of angle would always be part of my inital movement which moves my head away from the intended target area thus making the initial strike less likely to land and also providing more space for the wu to transition. With regard to compromising the centreline every time you do pak sau, I can only say that you must do pak sau very differently to me, the only time pak sau compromises the centre in the way I do it is if I apply it to the inside of the arm which I only do if either forced into a last ditch recovery (ie my other arm has been taken out of the equation by a grab or similar) or if the opponents other arm has already been taken out of the equation. I'd equally question your logic regarding the front arm being close to the punch whilst saying the wu sao won't have time to change shape. If the punch has set off and you've misjudged it then if its got anything like reasonable speed and power it is almost certainly already past your lead hand.
Only a different opinion of course, as I said i'll try to video something as we may be talking at crossed purposes.

I don't think you will be able to pivot either , if I'm right in front of you with both my hands an even distance from your head , you will only have a nanosecond for your brain to process the information and decide which way to pivot.
He only has to move one limb you have to pivot your whole body one way or the other.
In stepping forward you only have one decision to make , that is move forward as soon as you see movement.

The point of contact for your Tan Sau will be somewhere on his upper forearm , because the horse has already bolted past the point for wrist contact.

You say that your front hand will just continue in and strike the opponent , thats fine and dandy if the opponent has roughly the same reach as you.
But if it's a tall dude with long arms , his strike will probably get to you first , which brings us back to this little problem of his fist about to smash into your cheek bone.

The fastest movement you can do with the back hand one that is more in line with a natural flinch response and one that is more likely to happen under pressure is for you to simply raise your Wu Sau a few inches to provide a barrier to your face.

In regards to Pak Sau I normally parry the outside of the arm as well , but to recover from an error I will parry the inside of the arm.

If you say you have your Wu Sau forward then that means you will have both hands forward against straight punches , which leaves a great big gaping hole for any uppercuts he might decide to do or a throat grab.

You are correct in that the mistaken counter is two movements , but they are two very fast minimal movements that allow you to get at least one of his arms under control and trapped very quickly as you strike through.

 

[Eric_H]

Been trying to envision the scenario in my head, and I'm not sure if I have the spacing/angle worked out as you guys are describing.

In general terms if you shoot with the wrong hand, and the other side of the opponent is coming, we could use the front hand covering forward to the shoulder line with a sideways footwork towards the attacking limb to catch it.

Other same-hand options are mostly limited to pak-ing to the ear (very last-ditch).

 

[mook jong man]

Been trying to envision the scenario in my head, and I'm not sure if I have the spacing/angle worked out as you guys are describing.

In general terms if you shoot with the wrong hand, and the other side of the opponent is coming, we could use the front hand covering forward to the shoulder line with a sideways footwork towards the attacking limb to catch it.

Other same-hand options are mostly limited to pak-ing to the ear (very last-ditch).

Easiest way to describe it , is he throws a fake straight punch with one hand , basically nothing more than a flinch but enough to draw you into countering with a Tan Sau on the same side arm.

He then immediately throws a real straight punch with his other hand directly down the other side which you were totally unprepared for.

 

[WingChunIan]

I don't think you will be able to pivot either , if I'm right in front of you with both my hands an even distance from your head , you will only have a nanosecond for your brain to process the information and decide which way to pivot.
He only has to move one limb you have to pivot your whole body one way or the other.
In stepping forward you only have one decision to make , that is move forward as soon as you see movement.

The point of contact for your Tan Sau will be somewhere on his upper forearm , because the horse has already bolted past the point for wrist contact.

You say that your front hand will just continue in and strike the opponent , thats fine and dandy if the opponent has roughly the same reach as you.
But if it's a tall dude with long arms , his strike will probably get to you first , which brings us back to this little problem of his fist about to smash into your cheek bone.

The fastest movement you can do with the back hand one that is more in line with a natural flinch response and one that is more likely to happen under pressure is for you to simply raise your Wu Sau a few inches to provide a barrier to your face.

In regards to Pak Sau I normally parry the outside of the arm as well , but to recover from an error I will parry the inside of the arm.

If you say you have your Wu Sau forward then that means you will have both hands forward against straight punches , which leaves a great big gaping hole for any uppercuts he might decide to do or a throat grab.

You are correct in that the mistaken counter is two movements , but they are two very fast minimal movements that allow you to get at least one of his arms under control and trapped very quickly as you strike through.

These debates are why I love forums like this. Regarding footwork, I can turn far quicker than I can step in any direction be it forwards backwards sidewards or any combination of the above as I don't have to lift my feet off the floor. I have the same decision to make as I would if I wanted to step forward, my brain interprets the information and I turn selecting a side based on instinct. If I choose the correct side then this debate is irrelevant if i choose wrong then we have teh scenario in question. Either way the turn moves my head from the original target location so unless the incoming punch has significant curvature (ie a round punch or hook) reach is irrelevant and the turn also moves my outgoing hand closer by a couple of inches thus increasing my own range. As for having the Wu sao forward leaving a big hole for an uppercut, that only holds true if the person throwing the uppercut has telescopic arms which as most humans don't means that any upper cut is stopped forearm to forearm by the wu sao or by the upper arm of the striking hand (I train with lots of ex boxers, thai boxers and kick boxers and they all concur that an uppercut aint getting through after trying a few times). If its a throat grab then its no different to a straight punch it gets dealt with the same way. As far as the wu sao natural reaction, years of chi sau have changed my natural reactions from a flinch to a forwarding response.
If I follow your preffered approach remind me again what is stopping the second punch from taking your head off as you execute your fak sao?

 

[mook jong man]

These debates are why I love forums like this. Regarding footwork, I can turn far quicker than I can step in any direction be it forwards backwards sidewards or any combination of the above as I don't have to lift my feet off the floor. I have the same decision to make as I would if I wanted to step forward, my brain interprets the information and I turn selecting a side based on instinct. If I choose the correct side then this debate is irrelevant if i choose wrong then we have teh scenario in question. Either way the turn moves my head from the original target location so unless the incoming punch has significant curvature (ie a round punch or hook) reach is irrelevant and the turn also moves my outgoing hand closer by a couple of inches thus increasing my own range. As for having the Wu sao forward leaving a big hole for an uppercut, that only holds true if the person throwing the uppercut has telescopic arms which as most humans don't means that any upper cut is stopped forearm to forearm by the wu sao or by the upper arm of the striking hand (I train with lots of ex boxers, thai boxers and kick boxers and they all concur that an uppercut aint getting through after trying a few times). If its a throat grab then its no different to a straight punch it gets dealt with the same way. As far as the wu sao natural reaction, years of chi sau have changed my natural reactions from a flinch to a forwarding response.
If I follow your preffered approach remind me again what is stopping the second punch from taking your head off as you execute your fak sao?

He will probably be torqueing his shoulder forward after he has done his fake to generate power for his real punch , by the time he has tried to torque his shoulder back again he can't do it because I have latched his arm down from my Wu Sau.

In practical terms, the latching of his arm down will have an effect on his balance , and by stepping forward your forearm will reach his throat before he gets to reset and fire off another punch.
Even if he did he will be so close and cramped up that any force he can generate will be negligible .

 

[Eric_H]

Easiest way to describe it , is he throws a fake straight punch with one hand , basically nothing more than a flinch but enough to draw you into countering with a Tan Sau on the same side arm.

He then immediately throws a real straight punch with his other hand directly down the other side which you were totally unprepared for.

Ok cool, then yes, what I described (a form of Tien Yan Dei Kiu Sao) will work.

 

[mook jong man]

Ok cool, then yes, what I described (a form of Tien Yan Dei Kiu Sao) will work.

If it's the same as ours then basically your front arm just ricochets off his punching arm and straight into his throat as your Wu Sau hand pulls his punching arm down.
I think people are under the impression that you are pushing your arm way over the centreline , it's only a very small movement and then your forearm ends up rammed into his throat before he can punch again from the other side.

 

[naneek]

great discussion guys - i cant wait to see the video from wingchunian