Cheun Sau

[DanT]

Ideally. I think everyone would agree. But this is the problem with setting up a whole gate theory.

Sitting with a guard on center and mentally dividing space into 2, 4, or 6 gates times inside or outside just leads to thinking and hesitation when you have nanoseconds to respond with the correct hand technique to the correct gate, even if you've trained responses to each gate a billion times.

Even if you aren't thinking about this gate or that gate when fighting, it's the fact that you're open from all sides and can't predict what the opponent is going to do.

No amount of training will make center guard + gate theory an intuitive method.

You don't think about and try to remember theory during a fight. Yes I can protect all of my gates simultaneously because I'm quick enough to.

 

[geezer]

One thing in this discussion that resonates with me is when LFJ criticized linking defensive actions rather than maintaining offensive pressure. So if I find myself on the inside with a biu sau (we don't isolate "chuen-sau" as a separate entity), I would rather press the attack rather than "thread" the hand defensively and try to switch to the outside.

Unlike Dan T above, I'm not that fast!

 

[DanT]

One thing in this discussion that resonates with me is when LFJ criticized linking defensive actions rather than maintaining offensive pressure. So if I find myself on the inside with a biu sau (we don't isolate "chuen-sau" as a separate entity), I would rather press the attack rather than "thread" the hand defensively and try to switch to the outside.

Unlike Dan T above, I'm not that fast!

The Biu Saos still are offensive and pressuring the opponent, they are not purely defensive actions.

 

[ShortBridge]

Attack and defense are both the same.

 

[LFJ]

^^^^^ Its not supposed to be. It's a training method. Like Dan said, you go with whatever happens. If the opportunity and timing is right to move to the outside, then do so. It's safer. If there is no time or opportunity, then work on the inside until the there is, or until the opponent is down. But if you haven't trained these kinds of transitions so that they are smooth and natural, then they aren't going to happen when the stress is on. This is one reason TWC defines Cheun Sau as its "own thing", names it, trains it specifically, and even puts it in the forms.

Well, good luck then.

I can protect all of my gates simultaneously because I'm quick enough to.

lmao! Alright. I guess I don't have to wish you good luck then.

 

[KPM]

One thing in this discussion that resonates with me is when LFJ criticized linking defensive actions rather than maintaining offensive pressure. So if I find myself on the inside with a biu sau (we don't isolate "chuen-sau" as a separate entity), I would rather press the attack rather than "thread" the hand defensively and try to switch to the outside.

Unlike Dan T above, I'm not that fast!

Well, the problem with the other strategy is that you are pretty much assuming you can overwhelm the opponent with your onslaught of chain punches. What if you can't? If you aren't prepared to go on the defense (even if just briefly), then how are you going to recover the initiative if you happen to lose it during an exchange? So if you aren't linking in defense to your offensive strategy, then you might find yourself in a bad spot!

What if you are on the inside and that wide punch is blasting through your Biu Sau? Rather than try to match the force, its better to be ready and able to pass it and transition to the outside if necessary. In the process you might very well cause the attacker to over-rotate with his punch and send him off-balance a bit. That's the idea with the Cheun Sau. It isn't purely defensive. It is a transition, but one that can affect the opponent in an offensive way at times.

 

[dudewingchun]

In my opinion this technique is fantasy. It wont work the way that first video is showing.

 

[LFJ]

Well, the problem with the other strategy is that you are pretty much assuming you can overwhelm the opponent with your onslaught of chain punches. What if you can't?

Why is that "the other strategy"?

If these are the only two options you know of, I would consider looking into some other systems or different styles completely.

 

[KPM]

If these are the only two options you know of, I would consider looking into some other systems or different styles completely.

If this is the only way you can read a discussion, then I would consider looking into some other forums rather than this one. Because that comment is clearly just trolling for another argument. Go away.

 

[KPM]

In my opinion this technique is fantasy. It wont work the way that first video is showing.

Why do you say that? That first video actually shows what several here would call a use of Biu Sau and they have already said they have it in their lineages as well. It seems to be pretty common. And Phil is going slow for the camera. In real use it is very fast.

 

[LFJ]

That first video actually shows what several here would call a use of Biu Sau and they have already said they have it in their lineages as well. It seems to be pretty common.

Argumentum ad populum.

 

[KPM]

Argumentum ad populum.

Go away Troll.

 

[ShortBridge]

To me, this is a very simple technique and I have never had any doubt about it's usefulness in my bag o' tricks. Drills can appear and even be, very contrived and seem unrealistic. Sometimes they are, but sometimes, they're just a learning mechanism. If we insist on arguing about these things, I think it's an important distinction if we're arguing about the technique, the drill, the person in the video, or even something broader.

In practice, this technique is not really an outlier in the system(s), your elbow is in and down, you take center with forward intent and either bridge/intercept with something along the way or continue into a strike because center was open. The end. There are a great many hands in Wing Chun that work in fundamentally the same way, each maybe better in some circumstances than others, but they are all tools at the disposal of the practitioner.

The notion of reasoning or engineering your way through an assault is misguided, whether you're talking about this hand or another one. It all comes down to flow, just like it does in any effective system. These are our tools and I have always really liked this one, though I didn't have a Chinese name for it other than Biu Sao. As for moving from inside to outside, that's really a different consideration than whether this hand is legit or not. In my worldview it is and I've used it in drills not dis-similar to these and also training with non-compliant opponents. It flows very well sometimes, when it doesn't, I don't assume it's the technique's fault, that's just something that happens in training.

 

[dudewingchun]

I don't think transitioning between two hands and crossing something over like that will work in real time. Maybe Cheun sao will work as a parry but I can't see how you can catch with one hand, feel you can't take it, then quickly switch hands and cross to the other side all within a split second as the punch comes in then retracts and the other hand comes around.

 

[KPM]

I don't think transitioning between two hands and crossing something over like that will work in real time. Maybe Cheun sao will work as a parry but I can't see how you can catch with one hand, feel you can't take it, then quickly switch hands and cross to the other side all within a split second as the punch comes in then retracts and the other hand comes around.

Haven't you ever done the basic Chi Sau technique where, during the roll, you shoot your Fook hand up under your Bong hand to Lop his Fook hand and bring down as you punch with your Bong hand? It's essentially the same thing.

 

[dudewingchun]

Haven't you ever done the basic Chi Sau technique where, during the roll, you shoot your Fook hand up under your Bong hand to Lop his Fook hand and bring down as you punch with your Bong hand? It's essentially the same thing.

Yea but it's different than real fighting. I just don't see how you can cross over a full speed punch like that. You have to do 2-3 movements as fast as your opponent does 1. Also chi sao you are already in contact so that changes things already, you can react much faster than trying to see a punch and doing this movement then feeling the energy and changing to a different movement.

 

[geezer]

Haven't you ever done the basic Chi Sau technique where, during the roll, you shoot your Fook hand up under your Bong hand to Lop his Fook hand and bring down as you punch with your Bong hand? It's essentially the same thing.

I'm with the Dude on this one. Chi sau is one thing, sparring is another. I think this is a low percentage movement. Especially at the longer range of fighting with no arm connection. The non WC/VT people I've sparred ...if they are good... with tend to retract their hands very quickly. ...or maybe I'm just getting slower.

OK, make that definitely. I'm definitely getting slower!

 

[ShortBridge]

I agree that chi Sao is not fighting and I agree that this is not a good choice from out of range.

 

[DanT]

I should also add that the second Biu (even the first) could turn into a lap or punch.

 

[KPM]

Shortbridge and Dan have it right. It's all about range and timing. You aren't doing this by standing and waiting for a punch just so you can Cheun Sau around it. Did you miss the part where Phil states "I already have contact with his arm."?? And, man, if you are going to dismiss this basic technique in Chi Sau as irrelevant to real fighting, then you should just throw Chi Sau out completely.