Cheun Sau

[KPM]

Seems odd he emphasizes to "not let go" during this chuen sao transition, yet he does so when he does his lop'ing & pak'ing & stepping, etc

If you are referring to the two Chi Sau application videos, that is because his opponent has moved his arm off the line with a Pak Sau and Phil uses the Cheun Sau to recapture the line and regain some control. A little different situation. Like John pointed out, the concept here is an exchange or "switching" of hands. You "thread" the second hand through and try to keep it as tight as possible, depending on the circumstances.

 

[KPM]

You're right, you should just go to the outside first, but this technique is assuming you make a mistake and need to quickly transition to the outside gate.

Or that the distance and angling are just not favorable for you to go directly to the outside. So using the Cheun Sau allows you to get to the outside more safely than trying to go there directly from a less than favorable position.

 

[LFJ]

It's your typical M.O. You never start posts on your own or freely share information. You look for things to criticize. If I respond to your criticisms to try and explain what is happening from at TWC perspective, you will refuse to see what I am saying, ignore the points that I make, and turn the whole thing into a convoluted argument. That's exactly what you did on the other forum. I'm not going to play your game this time. Go away.

It's just discussion. You're not obligated to engage, but nor am I obligated to "see what you're saying" if I don't agree with it.

If you're looking for only agreement or validation, maybe post on a private forum.

 

[DanT]

I can see why outside would be preferable, but why is it a mistake to be on the inside of the opponent's left with your right?

If you avoid the inside for whatever reason, and jump in to out with defensive action after defensive action, trying to get to a better position while the opponent is focused on raining punches, the percentages are not going to be in your favor.

Depends on the style of wing chun you study. Many wing chun systems prefer to fight on the outside gate and will accordingly use a single transition to the outside. If you stay in the middle and the opponent is raining punches on you, you'll probably wind up trading blows anyways. Thus many systems see the value of finding a method to escape to the outside (a safer position).

 

[DanT]

Or that the distance and angling are just not favorable for you to go directly to the outside. So using the Cheun Sau allows you to get to the outside more safely than trying to go there directly from a less than favorable position.

True

 

[LFJ]

Depends on the style of wing chun you study. Many wing chun systems prefer to fight on the outside gate and will accordingly use a single transition to the outside.

The VT system I train also prefers outside, but we must know how to fight on the inside.
Often, the opportunity to take the outside line with a direct attack will present itself.

Unless a mistake like crossing oneself has been made (e.g. right inside right) requiring immediate switch, there is no reason to jump from defensive action on the inside to another defensive action on the outside, like biu biu against the same arm, and even when switching it will preferably be with an attacking action.

If you stay in the middle and the opponent is raining punches on you, you'll probably wind up trading blows anyways. Thus many systems see the value of finding a method to escape to the outside (a safer position).

It's just that in your example, right biu to the inside of the opponent's left punch, from my perspective you are not in a particularly poor position that needs escaping from. In may be the very next punch that takes you to the outside line.

Worrying about this gate or that gate and how to escape unnecessarily from here to there with this hand or that hand technique in the heat of a fight is highly problematic.

The problem being thinking and the time gap between registering options, decision and action.
For this reason, in my approach, we work direct from where we are and try not to make gate jumps except via attack.

That means an intuitive method that cuts back on things that require thinking and decision making when there is little to no time for that.

 

[wingchun100]

Ah the eternal "inside versus outside" debate.

INSIDE: You have more targets, but the opponent can reach you with more attacks.

OUTSIDE: You have closed them off so they can attack only from one side. (Attacks from the other side would be ridiculously telegraphed.) However, you have also limited your number of targets.

Which is better? In my opinion that depends on your skill level. Higher skill means you can handle yourself just fine on the inside gate. However, if you feel you are a little shaky on the defense, then outside would be better.

 

[LFJ]

Which is better? In my opinion that depends on your skill level. Higher skill means you can handle yourself just fine on the inside gate. However, if you feel you are a little shaky on the defense, then outside would be better.

For me, outside is preferred simply from a standpoint of percentages.

But you absolutely have to know how to fight on the inside, too, and shouldn't avoid training it or resort to escapes to the outside when your position is not necessarily compromised. You could end up in worse position for changing/ trying to change!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To do this transition quickly enough before the punch is retracted, you must have had the idea to go to the outside from the start, otherwise there's no time to make such a decision and act.

So, why not just go to the outside first? What's the point of trying to do a two-step, two-arm, inside-outside thing to a single punch?

The situation can be changed by your opponent. You intend to enter through his 'front door". But situation has changed and make that difficult.

IMO, you switch from the "front door" into the "side door" may have the following reasons:

1. Your opponent's left punching arm puts pressure on your right blocking arm. It moves your right arm to your left and force your right leading right arm to jam your left back arm. You then borrow his force, use "switch hand" and help his left arm to move to your left more than he wants to.

2. Your opponent's leading left leg moves to your left. This makes your "front door" entry difficult. You then decide to enter through his "left side door" instead.

 

[KPM]

INSIDE: You have more targets, but the opponent can reach you with more attacks.

OUTSIDE: You have closed them off so they can attack only from one side. (Attacks from the other side would be ridiculously telegraphed.) However, you have also limited your number of targets.

---I agree with this part Steve.

Which is better? In my opinion that depends on your skill level. Higher skill means you can handle yourself just fine on the inside gate. However, if you feel you are a little shaky on the defense, then outside would be better.

---This part....I think it is more a matter of fighting smart than whether someone has good defensive skill or not. If you are on the inside and "going up the middle" you are going to have to deal with both of the opponent's arms. Sure, you have more targets, but then so does he! And its just the law of percentages....the more shots he gets off, the more likely that some are going to land regardless of your defensive skill level! Working on the outside when possible is just a safer place to be. And the targets aren't that limited...unless all you do is a Wing Chun chain punch!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are on the inside and "going up the middle" you are going to have to deal with both of the opponent's arms.

The major concern in that position is not to let your opponent's arm to wrap around your waist.

 

[wingchun100]

INSIDE: You have more targets, but the opponent can reach you with more attacks.

OUTSIDE: You have closed them off so they can attack only from one side. (Attacks from the other side would be ridiculously telegraphed.) However, you have also limited your number of targets.

---I agree with this part Steve.

Which is better? In my opinion that depends on your skill level. Higher skill means you can handle yourself just fine on the inside gate. However, if you feel you are a little shaky on the defense, then outside would be better.

---This part....I think it is more a matter of fighting smart than whether someone has good defensive skill or not. If you are on the inside and "going up the middle" you are going to have to deal with both of the opponent's arms. Sure, you have more targets, but then so does he! And its just the law of percentages....the more shots he gets off, the more likely that some are going to land regardless of your defensive skill level! Working on the outside when possible is just a safer place to be. And the targets aren't that limited...unless all you do is a Wing Chun chain punch!

Hey now, don't mock the Wing Chun chain punch. Don't you know that's the unbeatable technique???

 

[DanT]

The VT system I train also prefers outside, but we must know how to fight on the inside.
Often, the opportunity to take the outside line with a direct attack will present itself.

Unless a mistake like crossing oneself has been made (e.g. right inside right) requiring immediate switch, there is no reason to jump from defensive action on the inside to another defensive action on the outside, like biu biu against the same arm, and even when switching it will preferably be with an attacking action.



It's just that in your example, right biu to the inside of the opponent's left punch, from my perspective you are not in a particularly poor position that needs escaping from. In may be the very next punch that takes you to the outside line.

Worrying about this gate or that gate and how to escape unnecessarily from here to there with this hand or that hand technique in the heat of a fight is highly problematic.

The problem being thinking and the time gap between registering options, decision and action.
For this reason, in my approach, we work direct from where we are and try not to make gate jumps except via attack.

That means an intuitive method that cuts back on things that require thinking and decision making when there is little to no time for that.

Biu can also be a strike, and I agree, you can fight on the inside, this movement provides you with the choice to move to the outside if you want to. The more options the better right?

 

[KPM]

Biu can also be a strike, and I agree, you can fight on the inside, this movement provides you with the choice to move to the outside if you want to. The more options the better right?

And as I pointed out before, you can also use Cheun Sau to move to the inside line!

 

[DanT]

And as I pointed out before, you can also use Cheun Sau to move to the inside line!

Yup you could

 

[Callen]

Which is better? In my opinion that depends on your skill level. Higher skill means you can handle yourself just fine on the inside gate. However, if you feel you are a little shaky on the defense, then outside would be better.

If you need to go outside, then go outside. If the situation dictates that you move to the inside, then do so. The system prepares us to be adaptive and implement intuitive actions from where we are. IMO proper training should reflect this concept.

 

[ShortBridge]

I was teaching this hand last week moving from outside to other outside. Gaan Sao the first hand, when the second one comes, one of the things we did was this and step/shift across to the other side. (Holding first punch static not required)

It was one of several things from that position.

Outside = good
Inside = different good, but much more urgent

 

[DanT]

The VT system I train also prefers outside, but we must know how to fight on the inside.
Often, the opportunity to take the outside line with a direct attack will present itself.

Unless a mistake like crossing oneself has been made (e.g. right inside right) requiring immediate switch, there is no reason to jump from defensive action on the inside to another defensive action on the outside, like biu biu against the same arm, and even when switching it will preferably be with an attacking action.



It's just that in your example, right biu to the inside of the opponent's left punch, from my perspective you are not in a particularly poor position that needs escaping from. In may be the very next punch that takes you to the outside line.

Worrying about this gate or that gate and how to escape unnecessarily from here to there with this hand or that hand technique in the heat of a fight is highly problematic.

The problem being thinking and the time gap between registering options, decision and action.
For this reason, in my approach, we work direct from where we are and try not to make gate jumps except via attack.

That means an intuitive method that cuts back on things that require thinking and decision making when there is little to no time for that.

You have to train the response to be immediate so you won't worry about "this gate or that gate", you just go with whatever happens.

 

[LFJ]

You have to train the response to be immediate so you won't worry about "this gate or that gate", you just go with whatever happens.

Ideally. I think everyone would agree. But this is the problem with setting up a whole gate theory.

Sitting with a guard on center and mentally dividing space into 2, 4, or 6 gates times inside or outside just leads to thinking and hesitation when you have nanoseconds to respond with the correct hand technique to the correct gate, even if you've trained responses to each gate a billion times.

Even if you aren't thinking about this gate or that gate when fighting, it's the fact that you're open from all sides and can't predict what the opponent is going to do.

No amount of training will make center guard + gate theory an intuitive method.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Its not supposed to be. It's a training method. Like Dan said, you go with whatever happens. If the opportunity and timing is right to move to the outside, then do so. It's safer. If there is no time or opportunity, then work on the inside until the there is, or until the opponent is down. But if you haven't trained these kinds of transitions so that they are smooth and natural, then they aren't going to happen when the stress is on. This is one reason TWC defines Cheun Sau as its "own thing", names it, trains it specifically, and even puts it in the forms.