Certain TKD Tech.

[white belt]

Also, holding both hands at the hips while advancing, if that is a front stance advancement, I would suspect the chambered hands are retaining lapels or wrists for knee bashing to the head, solar plexus and/or testicles. Those steps just need a more pronounced raising of the knee when moving forward. Just a thought. I don't have those forms. Sound interesting though!

Another thought, the tensioned movements/ exercises you mentioned before, are there more forms taught after that that deal more and more with trapping/gripping limbs? If so, the sequencing of the forms, as they are taught, could be prepratory for the needed extremity strength, in later forms, developed by the Isometric/ Hard Qi Gong movements. Feedback?

white belt

 

[mtabone]

Rho Hi is a form I have prevesly learned. Though Some places call it Lho Hi. Same From, different name. Just wondering about fissure's quote of : p.s. Lo Hi - Ro Hi , not quite the same though!


PS- Really not even a different name, justs a different pronunciation. Ever heard a Asian person try and say "R's"? not so easy. Not a hard thing to induce that Rho could easily be heard as Lo. After all all, there is the Wrong way, and the Wong way.

Michael Tabone

 

[fissure]

White belt, the poomse I mentioned are "left over" from the pre-Palgwae/Taeguek days, not colored belt forms.
The steps in Lo Hi are done as short little advances not formal stances.
For Keumgang's 3 palm heels - After the bouble middle block ( breaking a bouble grap)control the right wrist of the attacker strike with a palm heel to the colar bone.Grab the shirt where you just hit,pull them in for a palm heel to the chin. Followed by a sweeping motion as described for Koreyo, extend lead front stance leg behind attacker leg, pulling back into final position, sweeping his leg forward, using the palm to move their upper body in the opposite direction.

Another thought, the tensioned movements/ exercises you mentioned before, are there more forms taught after that that deal more and more with trapping/gripping limbs?

The form I was refering to was Jitae - WTF Dan level form.There is ALOT in these higher poomse that I'm stuggling with.Although this one has more tension than any other, mostly with "basic" tech.

 

[fissure]

What do you mean, not quite the same though?

I , and my "instructor" (see a privious post in regaurd to the qoutes!) were taught this form many yrs. ago by a Korean GM.
The only other time I saw this form was in a dojo of a friend (possibly Goju Ryu? Somekind of ryu anyway!) and it was a little different than the way I was taught.

mtabone, you know the point where you perform the knife hand block (frontstance) and double punches at 45 degree angle to both sides. I think there was a down block to one side during the this that I wasn't shone. The way I know it the "upper cut + overhand " punches are also done in these directions in addition to the front. Other small differences, low knife hand block to finish? I do middle knife. Obviously the same form - just a little different (from what I know at least).
It's very possible that this GM or even his teacher may have had a slightly faulty memory of this form.

 

[fissure]

Do you feel that forms are A:a laid out sequence of applications designed to be thought of in their entirety, with all movement following the specific order the occur in? Or do you look at them as B: many "sets" of motion pasted together for ease of practice, that may or may not relate to one another?
At this time I am leaning toward the later. For instance if you use my app. for the 3 palm heels in Kuemgang ( you may think they suck, and have no intention of ever trying it!!), the final sweep would leave your opponent on the floor. If the knife hand movements are looked at in the light of option A, then you would have to assume a second attacker has leapt over his fallen comrade after you dropped him! Or he has been creeping up behind you, but (out of the kindness of his heart) waited until you kicked the crap out of his buddy before making his move. At which point you throw 3 moves at him, taking him out - without ever turning to face him!
I think that the "sets" of tech. are what is important in forms. If you look at your throwing tech from Koreyo, White Belt, when you practice this set of tech. against an opponent would it matter if the movement before or after it, were the ones that do so in the poomse? I personally don't think so. This line of thought leads me to think that one part of a form doesn't have to relate to any of the others (although it may!) , or them to it. A such, some of the confusion, as in "O.K., I threw this guy on the ground here - but now how am I going to use my knife hand, spear finger combo in that direction?" - is lessened. I know - long post! Hope I got my thoughts across, your ideas?

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
White belt, the poomse I mentioned are "left over" from the pre-Palgwae/Taeguek days, not colored belt forms.
The steps in Lo Hi are done as short little advances not formal stances.
For Keumgang's 3 palm heels - After the bouble middle block ( breaking a bouble grap)control the right wrist of the attacker strike with a palm heel to the colar bone.Grab the shirt where you just hit,pull them in for a palm heel to the chin.

Fissure,

The app. I use for Kuemgang's first move is actually a double knuckle strike to the 11th rib area to collapse the diaphragm. This is done to counter a grappling attack/grab up high (clinch) which allows clearance for the double torso strike. Liver 13 and Spleen 16 are right there for the picking. The proximity of the hands at that point allow a short distance to the belt or testicles for a hard chambering/ripping motion with the left hand as it chambers. The right palm heel hits Spleen 16, at the bottom rib, as that left hand (palm full of....well you know) yanks back. At this point the opponents hands instinctively are reacting to the damage down low and drop near the area where your hands are attacking. At that point, the arm grip and pull begins for strike two. The grip is at too close of a range, at that point, to grab the wrist for proper pulling and securing. Try gripping just above the elbow and DIG the fingertips in at around Heart 2 and Heart 3 near or on the Ulnar nerve (really sucks, try it on yourself). Because the opponents hips go backward on palm heel one, the collar bone area and head are now dropped down to you as targets. Pull back HARD while squeezing that elbow grip, etc. At that point, the damage is being done up high with a broken collar bone,etc. and the body's natural reaction takes over by throwing the upper body back and presenting the hips forward. When this is done, a wrist grip or another ulnar grip can be secured while the chin area presents the final palms opportunity. If you can coax a partner to put their back against a wall and use a double over arm clinch, the targeting can be done even without moving forward or shifting the feet in place. Again, this is just my take and it may not feel as comfortable as your apps. which to me would work better on a shorter person. Curious, I am 5' 11". How tall are you and is this affecting our mind's eye? As you can tell, I use the reaction to pain factor (spasm) to set up or open my next shot, kind of like pool.

white belt

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
Do you feel that forms are A:a laid out sequence of applications designed to be thought of in their entirety, with all movement following the specific order the occur in? Or do you look at them as B: many "sets" of motion pasted together for ease of practice, that may or may not relate to one another?
At this time I am leaning toward the later. For instance if you use my app. for the 3 palm heels in Kuemgang ( you may think they suck, and have no intention of ever trying it!!), the final sweep would leave your opponent on the floor. If the knife hand movements are looked at in the light of option A, then you would have to assume a second attacker has leapt over his fallen comrade after you dropped him! Or he has been creeping up behind you, but (out of the kindness of his heart) waited until you kicked the crap out of his buddy before making his move. At which point you throw 3 moves at him, taking him out - without ever turning to face him!
I think that the "sets" of tech. are what is important in forms. If you look at your throwing tech from Koreyo, White Belt, when you practice this set of tech. against an opponent would it matter if the movement before or after it, were the ones that do so in the poomse? I personally don't think so. This line of thought leads me to think that one part of a form doesn't have to relate to any of the others (although it may!) , or them to it. A such, some of the confusion, as in "O.K., I threw this guy on the ground here - but now how am I going to use my knife hand, spear finger combo in that direction?" - is lessened. I know - long post! Hope I got my thoughts across, your ideas?

Fissure,

If each move in one form were performed on the same one person. Example: 26 moves. And let's say that all of the advanced apps. were known and being used. After about move 4 or 5 the authorities would want to press new charges for ABUSING A CORPSE. I definately believe they are NOT randomly put together, though. At the same time if you view a new fresh attack at any point in a form (say, pretend a form starts at position no. 5, etc.), and press on about 4 moves or so, you start to realize something.

white belt

 

[fissure]

I just realized I wrote "bouble" instead of "double" twice in the same post. Curious!
I'm also 6ft. tall (215lbs.)
You must use a much more forward rather than outward motion for the first movement of Kuemgamg, to give any kind of power to a striking interpretation. You basically use the palm strikes as, well, palm strikes.

Again, this is just my take and it may not feel as comfortable as your apps. which to me would work better on a shorter person.

Interesting. Not that I'm trying to sway you or anyone else - but I don't understand why you say this.You apply a double (got it right this time!) knuckle strike, followed by 3 palm strikes. I use a spreading motion to intercept a 2 handed grab, followed by 2 palm strikes and thrusting trip.Not really much difference, I can't invision a height issue....

 

[fissure]

I didn't mean the the moves would be against one person

At the same time if you view a new fresh attack at any point in a form (say, pretend a form starts at position no. 5, etc.), and press on about 4 moves or so, you start to realize something.

This is what I meant by "set" of moves.
Randomly put together - maybe not.What I'm saying is that these sets could be interchanged with other sets without altering their "own" applications.
For example the poomse Taebaek - you can easily find sets of movements from Pinan 2,3 and 4. It's often the position of Japanese Karateka that TKD forms do not hold the same knowledge as their kata, because they are recent creations.My arguement is that since TKD forms are, in part, comprised of these same sets of movement linked in different fashions - how could they not contain advanced apps.?

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

I envision a taller person in tie up position, arms high, (clinch) with me. In looking at the Ouchi Gari type inner reaping sweep you use, I would be really reaching with my forward stepping leg if I tried to get behind their lead leg, especially at your almost arms length version to boot. In my Judo experiences a shorter person is more vulnerable to backward sweeps/throws like you mention, while a taller person tends to crouch and lean in making a forward throw like Tai Otoshi easier. A taller person can reach inside the legs of their shorter opponent due to reach. That would be ideal for your app. A taller man with an overgrip, in clinch with me, would set up the mid to lower body targets I mention. Maybe we are revealing something to ourselves here about who our individual minds are targeting? Freudian Kata? Karl Jung (Hyung)?

white belt

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
I didn't mean the the moves would be against one person

This is what I meant by "set" of moves.
Randomly put together - maybe not.What I'm saying is that these sets could be interchanged with other sets without altering their "own" applications.
For example the poomse Taebaek - you can easily find sets of movements from Pinan 2,3 and 4. It's often the position of Japanese Karateka that TKD forms do not hold the same knowledge as their kata, because they are recent creations.My arguement is that since TKD forms are, in part, comprised of these same sets of movement linked in different fashions - how could they not contain advanced apps.?

Fissure,

My point is that the TKD forms seem to allow at least 3-4 strong sequenced movements to make sure the job is done. Then a fresh face can jump in and have his turn. If a form was structured such that the first move was a throw to the ground and the second a high punch, something would be fishy. Any authentic form I have seen has the "tear them up until the job is done" sequencing. And this is true regardless of where the form is begun (move 5, etc.). A crap thrown together form won't allow you to do this. It poorly trains an individual to move once on an opponent and then expect him to play dead like a bad Kung Fu movie. This is what I could not seem to get through to a certain females head here recently. A good form is not a random sequence of moves. Go back if you are interested and read about the "natural stance pauses" in Won-Hyo that I picked up on. GM Choi was pointing out something there when that form was developed. I don't know ITF forms, but I respect that man's intelligence.

Some Japanese style practicioners tend to think that you can only get to China through Okinawa. Korea has a few passes through those mountains. Nobody has a patent on correct physics and body motion. Look at the American boxers. Is USA boxing a poor version of the Marquis of Queensbury tradition? America took the genuine article and improved on it in many ways. We have had more world champions than any other country. The Japanese, Okinawans and Chinese have correct knowledge. The Koreans were never shown a patent. They also made as many contributions. Maybe the Marquis of Queensbury's lineage is keeping a secret punch to themselves. The jig is up on that "mixed up Korean kata" stuff. They know it to.

white belt

 

[fissure]

I think you're envisioning an arms length "boxing match". Think of your attacker starting close to you (remember he's attempting a grab) then using the elliptical foot motion of the front stance to get inside whatever stance they may be in. Strikes, as you know, don't have to landed anywhere near full extension. Also, after redirecting the grab you have intern grabbed his wrist whilst pulling him into the palm attacking his collar bone. Again grabbing there shirt, pulling into a chin palm attack using the same "inside" step with the front stance. At this point there is no distance to cover for the sweep and thrust, you are already in under their center.
An app. is an app., only if it's applicable to you! It's interesting how some of our apps. are practically identical, while others go in somewhat different directions.
I was looking through some old copies I made from TKD manuals yrs. ago.It's been a long time since I did the Palgwae forms, no walking stances in there huh? A usefull addition to the Taegueks or just another way to remove TKD from Karate!
Palgwae 4 looks like the colored belt version of Taebaek, now that I see it before me.This leads me back to my brainstorming on forms. The same set of moves apear in both forms, but are linked by different "conecting" movements.Yet the applications of these sets remains the same.I gotta stop thinking about this stuff!

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

Not saying your apps. won't work. I can do them w/o any trouble. Just trying to bring up the body types factor when intepreting. It does make for rough fits if target alterations are not considered when fighting Hulk Hogan as opposed to Gary Coleman. That's all!

Good night,
white belt

 

[fissure]

It does make for rough fits if target alterations are not considered when fighting Hulk Hogan as opposed to Gary Coleman. That's all!

No doubt!
Did you notice that this thread has degenerated into our own personall discussion group?!

 

[fissure]

What I'm trying to get at with the whole A,B line of thought, is that I don't always approach possible application of movements, or groups of movements, with the parts of the form in front or after it in mind. That is to say, if I feal something works for 3 or 4 movements that are obviously part of the same "string," I don't always concern myself with whether it will gel with an app. for the next string of tech.
Time for me to hit the hay!

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

Degenerated? Hey, thanks?! I get the feeling we are being watched. Must be my NTKO, Qi Gong, Ma Huang mix induced paranoia.

Yes, the "sets" viewpoint you have is a feeling I get too. But, like I have been saying, it depends on your psyche and circumstance. Sometimes what a "set" is for you or anybody else depends on where you start yours. Hope I'm making sense with that statement. Take the last Palm Heel in Kuemgang and tie it to the first and second step back knife hands. That could be a set to me immediately and not seen that way at first to someone else. What I said in an earlier post about form quality and being able to jump in at any point and having a "set". I have a high respect for Karate and Kung Fu forms. The body dynamics in forms are what define a style to me. What Bagatha said about the seperation of Forms, Sparring and Self Defense is very "arrested" in a developmental way. The 3 blend, at each individuals own nexus eventually, or else something is awry! The "permanent seperation" means that a person could just do creative dance, kickboxing and then Defendo or some other military based "reality" training and get the same benefits. It would be good for that individual, but it would not be as synergistic in developing a person as would the present TKD experience I am having. I guess it is hard to agree with that until it is actually felt.

white belt

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

The "arms length boxing match" statement. If you have a tall person, with slack in his arms, your pulling at the wrist will not generate the same amount of force as compared to a shorter limbed person. The shorter limbed person will have the slack pulled out of his arm and his body mass/center of gravity will be affected more, by the time your chambering pull is near it's home position. This sets up more collision force for the palm heel. to the intended targets. That is why on a taller person I advocate the common Ulnar area grappling grip for a taller person. Much like the collar/sleeve gripping in Judo. There is little to no slack left in the pulling motion at the arm and the collision/center of gravity shift is still implemented making the most of distance/physics. In your version of gripping at the wrist, at the get go, a shorter person would be damaged the most, due to travel distance and acceleration of inertia. This would be abruptly powerful due to your pulling the slack out of his arm before impact. A taller person would still have slack in his arm at the point of impact. The potential damage theoretically would be less than the shorter persons. Feedback?

white belt

 

[fissure]

I understand your tall guy point now. Good explanation!
I have to admit that I've never done any involved app. training with anyone over 6' 3".At this height differential (3") there hasn't been any problem. I can foresee the pitfall you detailed - maybe with a 6-7" reach/height variation.

Sometimes what a "set" is for you or anybody else depends on where you start yours.

Your making perfect sence with this. I wouldn't have a problem working on the last palm and first knife in Keumgang (since it has becime our poomse of reference), or 2 palms and 2 knife motions.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by white belt

Degenerated? Hey, thanks?! I get the feeling we are being watched. Must be my NTKO, Qi Gong, Ma Huang mix induced paranoia.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good lord that was funny.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by white belt
I guess it is hard to agree with that until it is actually felt.

There are many things that can't be explained and learned over an open forum such as this. Many times the only way to learn is to feel. Unfortunately for us we all have different views/opinions/instructors and learning abilities. Everyone here already knows this and I'll say again I've had a good time reading and hanging out with 'ya all. I'm just glad you guys haven't kicked me out.

"Let time be your measurement to skill and experience"