Certain TKD Tech.

[fissure]

I don't think that this is a problem unique to ITF TKD. If you go through the latest Kukkiwon TKD Textbook, very little is offered in the way of alternate ( I like this word more than "advanced") application.
The man who used to be my instructor - I don't consider him to be such anymore due to the fact that his instruction ended with basic tech. many years ago, I now think of him as a friend - and all of his contemporaries think only in terms of the most basic possibilities for tech. When something makes little sense on it's face, he/they often respond with "it's in there to show concentration" or something along those lines.

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call. In much the same way, if all someone is interested in, is competition then I don't have a problem with that either. Someone's reason for what they chose to do, or not do, is their own.
I wish that I would have had someone like your GM to guide me in these things - struggling through be myself has been a VERY slow process!

 

[fissure]

Here is where I expect to catch heat

At least you acknowledge that you brought it on yourself! Perhaps a kevlar Hogu might help?

 

[Bagatha]

Yes you are going to catch heat here! For you are stating something that you dont know for sure, you are just assuming.

My instructor was the creator of the legacy series and I had the privalidge of taking part in some of the video shoots and listining in on the conversations that took place between Master Choi, and the seniors. Nevermind the 5 technical seminars I have been too. The techniques are strikes. They were designed to be strikes, they are effective as strikes. They are performed completely different from WTF techniques so maybe yours arent strikes I dunno, but these ones are for sure without question. Strikes. Call it limited if you want but there are grappling moves which are COMPLETELY seperate from the techniques performed in patterns. The "advanced" techniques you speak of that are only taught to "advanced" students is funny. We are taught the right way from day 1 and just build on it. You dont have to learn the beginner way and then the right way and then the special way. As if those damn patterns arent hard enough. One example of an advaced move is in Juche having to perform a reverse turning kick (like hooking but leg is straight) stopping <- thats right "stopping" on a 45 degree angle from the front, all while moving 1 stance length backwards. Not too many people can negotiate this move correctly. But it is still a stike. Like fissure pointed out, if it was meant to be something else then they would have named it something else. I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages. Im not saying more is better or that WTF doesnt do the same things, I am suggesting that WTF doesnt officially "name" differences in technique to the extent that ITF does. Like the example above, a reverse hooking kick vs a reverse turning kick, same kick only one the leg closes and the other the leg remains straight. But it is given different names for different ways to perform it. The grappling moves you speak of actually have names for them, like "checking x-block". That is a block that is meant to turn into a grab. The low block does not. The General was very thourough and VERY specific as to what was what and the reasons why. Leaves little room for guesswork. Im going to stop here but if you want to go into specific details later thats fine. We have to make it fast though because my intermet is getting cut off by the end of the month.

Originally posted by white belt
Fissure,

You demonstrate an understanding of apps. that unfortunately for TKD is rare. You also explain in text very well. I don't give credence to the "rough fit" apps. If the fit is comfortable, w/o my making some stretch of alteration, I embrace it.

The beginners apps. are the status quo to far too many people. I include some people of high rank in that statement. This is not a jab at them. It is just an indication as to where faithful dogma can lead. Nowhere. You then end up with practicioners that are jaded concerning the forms usefullness. If I only allowed the beginning version of apps. to be my focus, I too would be jaded.

Here is where I expect to catch heat. The legacy series, by GM Choi, focuses on beginning apps. primarily. This has led to the majority of ITF students thinking those apps. are the final word. They are to be admired in their faithfulness, but they don't consider the possibility of advanced apps. taught by GM Choi to advanced students. The printed versions are not the final word. I don't believe GM Choi meant this limitation to happen. I think he meant to give a clean starting reference for teachers and students so later they COULD understand the advanced possibilities. Not to stop dead in their understanding. The explanations I give, to the moves in Won-Hyo, breathes new power into the old block and punch beginner apps. This is not some genious on my part, it is genious meant to be shared by the creator/s. I am just reading their "physical record".

Well, here it comes!
white belt

 

[fissure]

I won't answer for white belt in any way, I'm sure he is more than capable of defending his position.
I will say however that I was unaware of the differences between ITF and WTF TKD, outside of sparring rules and regulations.
If you look at the first few posts between us Bagatha, we had almost no idea what the other was talking about! Is ITF the more prevalent of the 2 org. in Canada? In the U.S. ( at least down here in FL) I believe that WTF dojang are more commonplace.

Do you subscribe to various applications for tech. in any way? Is this at all a concept with in the MA community as you know it?
Do you ever use the in to out blocking motion as a trap and elbow jiont attack? If so does this tech. have a specific name within the ITF seperating it form the blocking motion?I kn ow I have alot of questions!
Like I said before:

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call

By for now.

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

Yes, WTF people are guilty of restrictions with apps. as well. I agree. The ITF "cult" subject, of this thread, is congruent with some ITF views I have come across concerning a different view of GM Choi's legacy series apps. It is gospel, etc. to most and that almost seems cult like. I understand how people like to support their organizations. The bad mouthing of TKD's "unrealistic forms" stems greatly from the unyielding propensity toward blind faith and leaving the basics interpretations "as is" attitude. This has helped lead to a weak image of TKD, to many outsiders, as well as frustrated practicioners. On the subject of finding "advanced apps.", I too have toiled to find 99.9 % of what I have. My GM allows me to ask for verification is all. That is more than a lot of people get, I'm sure. I am thankful to have that much. I also realize the intensive thought, that goes into unlocking these things, has helped me become a better source of knowledge for my students.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Judo throw "Uchimata". Are you aware of a version of this throw being in Koryo and where it is at? It is actually a "Rising Sidekick" as first taught. I don't have all the advanced apps. unlocked, but maybe we can share, to speed the proccess, if you are still unlocking too (?). My use of the term "advanced" is to refer to the more useable apps. beyond the beginning apps. That is all. I am not refering to myself, as some might assume. I use the name "white belt" for good reason.

I Dig Chop, Chop!,
white belt

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
Do you subscribe to various applications for tech. in any way? Is this at all a concept with in the MA community as you know it?
Do you ever use the in to out blocking motion as a trap and elbow jiont attack? If so does this tech. have a specific name within the ITF seperating it form the blocking motion?I kn ow I have alot of questions!
Like I said before:

By for now.

Yes, all of the time. Blocks should always cross your centerline therefore traps are easily accessable. I would also call this a joint manipulation rather than a specific technique. A block is a block but a trap is different. But I do this as a left inward parry followed by a right upward back knuckle strike to the bottom of the arm (this buys a moment to trap) after the upward strike the right arm contours up to gain the trap on the outside of the attackers elbow. As far as any difference between ITF and WTF I can't really tell you. I was only involved in one not both.

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Yes you are going to catch heat here! For you are stating something that you dont know for sure, you are just assuming.

My instructor was the creator of the legacy series and I had the privalidge of taking part in some of the video shoots and listining in on the conversations that took place between Master Choi, and the seniors. Nevermind the 5 technical seminars I have been too. The techniques are strikes. They were designed to be strikes, they are effective as strikes. They are performed completely different from WTF techniques so maybe yours arent strikes I dunno, but these ones are for sure without question. Strikes. Call it limited if you want but there are grappling moves which are COMPLETELY seperate from the techniques performed in patterns. The "advanced" techniques you speak of that are only taught to "advanced" students is funny. We are taught the right way from day 1 and just build on it. You dont have to learn the beginner way and then the right way and then the special way. As if those damn patterns arent hard enough. One example of an advaced move is in Juche having to perform a reverse turning kick (like hooking but leg is straight) stopping <- thats right "stopping" on a 45 degree angle from the front, all while moving 1 stance length backwards. Not too many people can negotiate this move correctly. But it is still a stike. Like fissure pointed out, if it was meant to be something else then they would have named it something else. I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages. Im not saying more is better or that WTF doesnt do the same things, I am suggesting that WTF doesnt officially "name" differences in technique to the extent that ITF does. Like the example above, a reverse hooking kick vs a reverse turning kick, same kick only one the leg closes and the other the leg remains straight. But it is given different names for different ways to perform it. The grappling moves you speak of actually have names for them, like "checking x-block". That is a block that is meant to turn into a grab. The low block does not. The General was very thourough and VERY specific as to what was what and the reasons why. Leaves little room for guesswork. Im going to stop here but if you want to go into specific details later thats fine. We have to make it fast though because my intermet is getting cut off by the end of the month.

I don't see any cult behavior here!

Fissure,

Look at my low block explanation and then look at the legacy explanation when you can get a copy. The legacy "basic" explanation will get you hurt if tried against even a half assed kick. General Choi obviously knew more than this and wasn't sharing with everyone. That is a stark conclusion for me. I'm interested to see your take on this. The posts by Mr. Mavis, in the Won-Hyo thread, insinuate he feels a lack of practicality in the commonly subscribed to interpretations also. I believe he is an ITF member. Damian could better illuminate for us if he is available and reading this. That bumper sticker "My Karma ran over your Dogma", for some reason, is coming to mind on this "cult" like subject!

white belt

p.s.

A poll: Is it safe to "assume" a full power front kick to my groin would hurt if I watch somebody else receive one and blow chunks while snapping to fetal position? "Assuming" fetal position might be a better choice of words? Ow! Damn that low block!

 

[Bagatha]

Patterns are patterns

Sparring is sparring

Grappling is grappling

I dont speak for all ITF folk here, but I am strongly against the idea that patterns will help you with sparring, or that grappling will help you with patterns or point sparring will help you with grappling etc. I love grappling, I love patterns, I love sparring, but the only way they compliment each other is in a street situation, where you can strike, block and submit. Otherwise you need to work at patterns to get better at patterns, you dont work at patterns to get better at sparring, or whatever. and nobody does proper technique in pretty little stances in a street fight. When you learn grappling it doesnt look anything like patterns, so to take patterns and try to turn it into grappling applications seems like quite a leap of faith to me. Again, our patterns are totally different so maybe for WTF it does have these "hidden" purposes. But like I said if it was meant to be for grappling applications then General Choi would have told someone. Further then that, the positions and applications of many of the techniques such as the low outer forearm block make it very akward to change it into some kind of grappling appication. You would have to see it to understand. Unlike WTF techniques our hands stay far away from our body for this particular move. Anyone with any grappling experience knows this is a no no.

WTF is quite a bit larger in Canada aswell. On my street alone there are 3 WTF clubs within mere blocks of each other. There are only 3 ITF clubs in the whole city. It is easier for me to say this "matter of factly" because the ITF community is so small. Us lower ranks get the privy of "hanging" with some of the most senior masters in the ITF on an almost regular basis.

 

[fissure]

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Judo throw "Uchimata". Are you aware of a version of this throw being in Koryo and where it is at?

It has been a long time since I trained in Judo, so the name of this throw meens nothing to me, however - I assume ( always risky!) that you are refering to the "twisting hip throw" that can be derived from the knife block, punch, turn w/lower spear attack sequence. The throw brings to light the otherwise pointless motion of forcefully pulling both hands to the "pivot" hip.

Look at my low block explanation and then look at the legacy explanation when you can get a copy. The legacy "basic" explanation will get you hurt if tried against even a half assed kick.

I don't know anything about ITF poomse or even what this whole "legacy" thing is about. As such I'm not going to make guesses or opinions regarding either, in the same way I wouldn't want someone else taking "stabs in the dark" about my training.

 

[fissure]

I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages.

The current WTF Kukkiwon Textbook is 766 pages. Not exactly War And Peace, and no doubt shorter that the ITF encyclopedia - but certainly not the book you have.As I understand it there is but one Official ITF manual, the same is true for the WTF.

From your post Bagatha, I get the feeling that you don't find a use for forms other than "doing" forms. You don't feel that poomse/kata hold the key to a MA? If that is their only purpose, do you think that a MA could remove forms from training and suffer no consequences?
I'm not looking for a fight here, I'm interested in your views on these things.

 

[fissure]

Mr Farnsworth, it would appear that you have found an art that you feel makes sense to you. No doubt the result of quality instruction! This later aspect is what you were probably missing in your TKD training. You mentioned that some things in TKD didn't make sense and so you left for greener pastures. I feel like saying "sorry about your TKD exp." Just remember every art has its frauds!

 

[Marginal]

Slightly different question, but the way sparring's seperate from grappling (ho son sul), the way patterns are seperate from either etc in most ITF schools I've heard about, doesn't that make them way harder to integrate into a cohesive style?

If the WTF dojangs take a similar approach how is that as complete as say, an art that doesn't seperate sparring and grabbing and so on?

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Wow, there is some very controversial views going on in this thread. Its great to hear such opinionated views on such topics.

My personal experience lays towards White Belt's views. I feel that within the WTF forms, the thought of "Formless form" was put into motion. just my humble opinion.

 

[fissure]

Marginal - This only applies to sport sparring. Poomse contain all of tech. of an art. Tournament style sparring has almost nothing to do with actual Martial Arts.
Problems only arise when sport sparring becomes the main focus of a school.
At least, that what I think!

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
Mr Farnsworth, it would appear that you have found an art that you feel makes sense to you. No doubt the result of quality instruction! This later aspect is what you were probably missing in your TKD training. You mentioned that some things in TKD didn't make sense and so you left for greener pastures. I feel like saying "sorry about your TKD exp." Just remember every art has its frauds!

I did like the fact that I was in the TKD art. If you look in my profile I do list my achievements and also don't push them on anyone. I also learned a great deal on how to kick and kick properly might I add. However I did train with 3 different TKD instructors in my 5.5 yrs as I was heavily involved training as much as 5 nights a week in the dojo. One particular person I trained with was in the olympics trials in '88 and '92 as well. He really taught me the art of kicking. Also I made mention to not understanding some of the movements because they did not have "practical purpose". What I mean by that is if you look at um, I think it is Won-Hyo there is a walking stance with 3 double knifehand blocks if I remember corrrectly. Give me an example on how you would use these in combat?
Again I'd have to agree with bagatha on nothing you do in the dojo is going to be pretty in any street altercation. NEVER will it be the same. Your body will only react to what it's used to doing. You must train for all four ranges of combat not just one or two. Just my couple of pennies here. I'm enjoying this and not trying to step on anyone's toes or hurt feelings. I'm here to learn just like everyone else.

 

[fissure]

Who was the guy you trained with who made team trials? I know a lot of the guys who placed at nationals and team trials, unfortunately I never made it past quater finals at USTU nationals myself.
Currious - Olympic competion is the baby of the WTF. Did you train at a WTF dojang or was this a ITF guy who for a short time joined the USTU (US branch of the WTF) just for a shot at the Olympic team?

You must train for all four ranges of combat not just one or two.

I agree. That is why sport sparring cannot become the only form of combat training that is practiced. A wide array of situations should be worked through, striking, grappling (standing and ground work),ect. all at ranges, as you obviously know! These things are universal among MA, TKD included - unfortunately not at the TKD dojang you experienced.

Sorry, I know nothing about ITF forms. Without knowing exactly what you are speaking of, I could only make a possible interpretation.

there is a walking stance with 3 double knifehand blocks if I remember correctly. Give me an example on how you would use these in combat?

Again I don't know if these are in one fixed stance or singular consecutive blocks each in it's own stance, but possibly -
first knife hand block simply blocks, second knife hand motion attacks the opponents limb ( which is trapped after being blocked), and the third knife hand motion attacks the opponents neck/throat area. Again I have zero exp. in ITF TKD, including forms. I don't know how these blocks are executed in relation to each other.
I offer this line of thought based upon a similar application of 3 consecutive high blocks used in the early Karate forms I was taught (Kibon possibly - can't remember if that's the right name!).

I agree that nothing plays out in the real world as it does in the dojang. I think that formal training is directed toward an ideal, with the expectation that very little in life actually IS ideal.

I like the analogy of a football play. On the practice field a half back pitch is drawn up, showing where everyone is supposed to be and what they should be doing. Once the play is run during the game everything starts to change! The HB takes a slightly different angle. The FB doesn't get a solid block on the Middle Linebacker. The pesky Strong safety reads the play much sooner that expected. Before you know it the running back is improvising his *** off!
Question is - does the fact that in a real game (feel free to sub. in real life) things most often don't go as planned, should the ideal no longer be practiced?
I'm enjoying this thread too, I'm glad I started it! (puffs his chest out!)

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
I'm enjoying this thread too, I'm glad I started it! (puffs his chest out!)

Right on!! As for the gentleman I trained with I think I'd rather get his permission to use it on an open forum like this.

 

[fissure]

I understand completely!

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by fissure
Marginal - This only applies to sport sparring. Poomse contain all of tech. of an art. Tournament style sparring has almost nothing to do with actual Martial Arts.

I'm just wondering why that has to be the case. Why water down the sparring? Especially in organizations that have no reason to follow Olymic sparring rules, doesn't seem like there's much reason to restrict grabbing during sparring and so on.

 

[fissure]

It doesn't have to be the case! Assuming that you can get enough guys together who want to beat the crap out of each other.
Seriously, most people in today's MA schools are not that interested in going hard and heavy. They don't like leaving class with knots up and down their forearms. They don't want to deal with sore ribs, split lips and such. It's a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless, that the average student in the average school is looking for a good work out not an intense MA session. Sport sparring is about as far as most really want to go.