Certain TKD Tech.

[fissure]

i wonder wat was up in the founder's(funakoshi/choi/others) mind when he created forms, was he putting some hidden forms so that it took ages to Master An Art?

This debate has been going on in MA forever! No one has and absolute answer to this.

I think white belt is pulling your leg!

 

[TkdWarrior]

I think white belt is pulling your leg!

well i dont mind get my leg pulled

This debate has been going on in MA forever! No one has and absolute answer to this.

yea i agree with this. i think now it's open to everyone the way he/she interpretts it... to find His Way.
-TkdWarrior-

 

[TkdWarrior]

to add into my post i think founders hav done it deliberately(sp)
if we all knew same techinques/forms/ways then No fun left
n thanx to Internet we can kick each other's as$es proving we got Da Method
it's so darn fun
-TkdWarrior-

 

[white belt]

Yes, I am pulling TKD Warrior's leg. It is a move I got from the form Kum Gaeng. Don't tell anybody!

Chop, chop!!!
white belt

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
I hope I didn't give the impression that all one had to do was practice forms endlessly in order to reach ones goals!
My intent was to say (much as you did) that the "blue print" for application are in an arts forms.These are then practiced individualy with various partners, along with purpose specific "sparring" and indeed sport sparring to some degree.

Fissure,
We're on the same page. The "blue print" are indeed the forms. It's up to the individual to seek, learn, then understand the knowledge they contain. Disect the forms then build them back up in place of self-defense tech. where they can be rationally put into play. Quality instructors are what's needed for that.

I did not pick up on you saying only 1 form of fighting is good. I knew what you were saying there as well. As I mentioned before by having 3 different TKD instructors in my tenure. My main instructor (which is the person who promoted me) did a mix blend of TKD and aikido. The next instructor that was an assitant instructor there taught a blend of JJ and TKD. The last gentleman in which I spoke of earlier came in for 5 months in '91 to gear up and train for the olympic trials. After that he went out onto his own with his training in seclusion to train like a mad man. During this time period as well I went into the kickboxing ring also. I wouldn't be the person I am today without the help of all of these men. My instructor broke away from the ITF he didn't like where it was heading and became an independent. To me I could care less. Then the class started to take a turn for the worse, into business. This is when I turned to kenpo.

 

[fissure]

Disect the forms then build them back up in place of self-defense tech. where they can be rationally put into play. Quality instructors are what's needed for that.

That last sentance sums it up.

Of all the arts I have trained in to one degree or another, Aikido is the only one that I completely and totally sucked at! I could never get the whole "flowing through the entire motion" theory. I always wanted to put a little "pop" in at the end of a movement, the way you would with a kick or punch.

It's interesting to note that if you stay in MA long enough it's almost impossible not to get some exposure to other arts. One of the best examples was the farther of one of the kids we taught 7 or 8 yrs ago. He was a collegiate wrestler- 6 ft. 280lbs. he taught me alot about grappling, a good education from an unexpected source!

 

[Bagatha]

Fissure, this concept about being a fighter is the end all be all about MA, I dont FULLY agree with but it is mostly true I think. This is a new area for me for I never used to think this way at all. In fact I have been in several arguments with ITF folk about this new discovery of mine aswell. It is something I came to on my own once I ventured outside of the "cult" and into other "cults". When you discover that this vast amount of knowledge you have amounts to nothing once again. Everything that you know and can do doesnt mean squat in another art. What does mean something then? What is the fundamental goal in every art, something that can be brought with you and used? The ability to fight. The ultimate goal in all this training is the hope that you will be able to defend yourself when called opon. No matter what Martial art you go to, this is the goal. Patterns originally were invented to aid in this goal, a form of training without a partner. Patterns have changed many many times until someone decided. Hey lets go with these ones. And then another person came along and said, hey this makes sense and this doesnt, and modified them again and again. The best explination I have heard as to the value of patterns is this: Patterns are the practice of "perfect" technique. If you are in a real fight your technique will be degraded because of the flow and dynamics but if you can execute technique with 50% power/correctness/ etc. of a perfect pattern then you should be ok.

I accepted this explination for many years until I TRULEY realized HOW the technique in sparring and the technique in patterns is totally different. They arent really interchangeable. Does that mean patterns are useless? No. They train you to punch hard without resistance, i.e. how to stop your techniques before you hyperextend something in case you miss in a real fight. They teach you a huge amount of balance, and once this is learned then pivoting in sparring is a peice of cake in comparison. The repetative movements (for some people) is a challenge, so the simple act of memorization can sharpen the mind. The ability to perform patterns free from distraction is an awsome form of meditation IMO. The amount of overall coordination achieved is incompareble to sparring. Learning patterns makes learning everything else easier. BUT, patterns are simply a sequence of moves which can be easily replaced by similar floor work that has no name. I think you still need patterns or a suppliment to patterns though, you cant just have sparring and thats it.

 

[Bagatha]

White Belt,

FANTASTIC! Now Im an expert of every art! I love it thanks. Hey maybe that means Since Choi decided NOT to put grappling apps in his patterns.....they dont work?

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
White Belt,

FANTASTIC! Now Im an expert of every art! I love it thanks. Hey maybe that means Since Choi decided NOT to put grappling apps in his patterns.....they dont work?

Expert in every art? Do you know a "Judo Kid" by any chance? Try learning more about your forms. That will definately facilitate your branching out at least. Worked for me AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS.

Fissure answered your query of the forms not working with his FIRST post. Generally, why are techniques taught, at first, in a manner that will get you hurt? Because that is a BEGINNERS way of understanding them. The legacy series helps BEGINNERS. It also helps Instructors help teach BEGINNERS. It is a good reference tool for this. If you are insinuating that GM Choi did not have advanced apps. for each BEGINNERS movement, then either 1) He was not sharing, at all, INTENTIONALLY. 2) He was NOT TAUGHT PROPERLY by his teacher Funakoshi and could not figure out what others have. 3) He knew and shared alright. You and MANY others were just left out of the mix to figure things out on your own or not at all.

I vote for number 3. I wager that GM Choi was much more intelligent than you will give him credit for. This is being said by a WTF TKD man. Me.

Instead of dodging the technicalities that Fissure and I openly discuss, take the movement from his description in his first post, involving knife hands, and give us all a lesson. Will you make an excuse and not deliver? I am betting that you have nothing more than the BEGINNERS VERSION to share. Knowledge is power.

The Borg thing is a cool concept. A mix of human and machine. They tend to not have time for things outside their prime objective. Consume and assimilate. Petty human concepts are lost on them. Very unemotional. Good luck!

Remember, answer the application description/function posted by Fissure. I am always open to "useful" learning.

Your buddy,
white belt

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
White Belt,

Man, you love to describe things I already know!

I think that I'm fairly sure you are busting balls with the ITF cult angle - but not completly! Maybe someone had a bed exp. at some point?Hmmmm....

Bed experience? Isn't that inappropriate talk for a forum like this?

I did have involvement with a MA cult myself about 20 years ago. Very interesting. I started a post about CMQ in the "Horror Stories" area. Some others who frequent this forum have knowledge of them. Wacky bunch. They had a version of DKI's NTKO apparently. If any questions about that, post at "Can't touch this". It is below the thread "What do you find most annoying about that white belt guy?". I openly share. It's just who I am.

white belt

"I AM BORED".
"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!".

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt


Bagatha,
In reference to your "Kung Fu forms" remark, the Chinese Fukien province gave gave birth to the Kung Fu systems that are the MOTHER of your forms. The lessons Funakoshi received were in LARGE part FROM CHINA. Funakoshi TAUGHT Choi. Are you catching the connection here? You are practicing "Tang Soo Do" that was renamed TKD. "China Hand Way". Kara Te Do means "China Hand Way". This is another reason I reference "cult" like behavior. Not looking around you and believing only what you are told is "cult" like, no? Arnisador and some others helped me find clear text reference dealing with the exporting of Kung Fu to Japan AND Korea. It became Karate, TSD AND TKD. Is the ITF a cult? No! Some people just like to pretend. If you looked harder at your forms and I mean REALLY looked, YOU WOULD BE fluent enough to exchange with some of the CMA people. Your joke has more truth to it than you realize! Yours is a very good analogy, accident or not!

Your the one that implied I knew all about other arts through this very "interesting" logic. I was just having fun with it.

Beyond that you have already deduced that whatever I say is below your incredibly secret society knowledge so I dont have time to humor you, sorry. Maybe one day when your finished being a teacher and ready to be a student we can discuss this again my friend. Until then, my ISP is being disconnected so adios.

 

[white belt]

Bagatha,

I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS! Good luck on having your ISP removed. I had a friend who had one removed and he walks with a limp now! But, he can now accurately predict the weather!

Honestly, Good Luck in your adventures!

white belt

 

[fissure]

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call.

Yet again I astound even myself with my ability to predict the future!

"I AM BORED".

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!".

I like your sense of humor White Belt.

What is the fundamental goal in every art, something that can be brought with you and used? The ability to fight.

I would preface my response by saying that I'm a fairly big strong guy whose been around the block and loves to mix it up. ( trying to say that I'm not a little wimp who can't cut the mustard!)
But I would say that many trainees who have studied for 20 or 30 yrs often express the "fundamental goal in every art" as a journey of self discovery, an ability to find oneself through a martial ART.
But like I've said before:

In much the same way, if all someone is interested in, is competition then I don't have a problem with that either. Someone's reason for what they chose to do, or not do, is their own.

As long as each uindividual gets what they want out of their training, everything is right with the world. I have found over the years, however, that what I wanted has changed a few times!
Hope you get back on line soon, I've enjoyed the disscsions.:asian:

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Haha, hes just mad because someone thinks differently. Its bound to happen after awhile. Maybe Ill go hang out in the Kung Fu forum for awhile and tell them how to do their patterns. LOL.

Woah, I sense hostility!!! haha, just kidding. I like this quote, its short and direct.

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

................I hear..... crickets. Good thread while it lasted! Anymore pearls??

Miss Bagatha,

Good luck with your surgery if you are out there! Getting that ISP thing off your eyebrow shouldn't hurt too much!

Last call?
white belt

 

[fissure]

White belt what are your thoughts on forms with continually repeated movement. I have seen some possible applications of these (posted briefly on triple knife hand blocks earlier), the 3 palm heal + 3 knife hand motions in Keumgang come to mind. Again I've seen/heard/invisioned possible apps., but also heard it said that this repetition is simply a way of saying "take note of this, it's important". Since the most often repeated movements are the ones with the most diverse apps. (knife hand, high block, down block,ect.) I think I' m kinda leaning toward the later theory right now.
Those aren't crickets - just my empty head trying to figure out a reason why so many movements in Jitae are in super slow motion! ( tension against a hold? another "pay attention" type thing? Not sure right now!)

 

[fissure]

I can't remember your answer - do you practice Bal Sek, Lo Hi, and Sip Soo? Lots of interesting possibilties there!
I can't figure out the "hands at hip, double step forward" in Lo Hi!

p.s. Lo Hi - Ro Hi , not quite the same though!

 

[white belt]

Fissure,

I practice the PalGaes. Explaining my interpretation for apps. for your forms before black belt is possible, but it would be tedious. I reference the "Won-Hyo" thread for that statement. I do believe there is hard and soft Qi Gong sprinkled into a lot of the forms. The tensioning movements would be focused on by me for that. Gripping, and small joint rotation under tension, is a much overlooked strengthening exercise by a lot of students. My hand and forearm mass is much harder, though no bigger, from concentrating on forms. My partners now wince when I lightly "tap" them during different types of practice.

The form Keum Gang is still not fully disected by me. The apps. for the triple moves are elusive when put in series if compared to singular moves. I agree. The palm heel, in my apps., is a neck crank/break from a grappling tie up. The palm heel is also used to severe the collar bone nearest the throat junction, in my apps. The stepping back single knife is a Carotid strike with an elbow break across your ribcage by the chambering hand. If you have something to add, maybe we can make a clearer picture for each other.

I found the "Boston Crab" in this form! Have you derived it? Keum Gang is mostly joint breaks, locks and throws from my vantage point. Share your thoughts.

Thanks,
white belt

 

[mtabone]

What do you mean, not quite the same though?

 

[white belt]

Though I don't have those forms, MTabone's question is intriguing. That is a good point!

white belt