Earl Weiss
Senior Master
It's more reliable because???????
The strongest hand tech in TKD
- Thread starter Manny
- Start date
It's more reliable because???????
bluewaveschool
2nd Black Belt
whichever doesn't involve the sine wave.
I train quite a bit with both, and though I will not minimize the effectiveness of a palm strike, this is a false assumption. I don't probably think this at all. They serve 2 different purposes. This is exactly why.
The same amount of power delivered through a smaller surface penetrates deeper, opposed to the wider surface which spreaeds wider and shallower.
I have to part ways with the candyass remark though. Many peers I've talked to (far from candyass) prefer it and openly admit it's because it's effective yet easier on the hands. IMO, it's cetainly effective, just not the most effective as the OP asks.
Because it's still possible to injure trained hands when punching. I've known people who trained for years that broke knuckles and fingers breaking patio blocks, boards, even sparring. When I say "more reliable", I mean it's the strike that's going to break the other guy's nose if I have to. The extra coverage IMO is worth the trade off in the extra power you get from one focused point and at a certain amount of power that difference just doesn't matter.
Then there's a variable like myself; I had a tendon repair a few years ago and it doesn't matter now how conditioned my hands are, I can still break that knuckle quite easily because I don't have anything more than maybe 40% mobility there, and next to no feeling. Because of the nature of the repair I can also break the repair which I don't want since it cannot be done again, which would suck as a guitar player. I don't want to lose any more mobility in my fretting hand.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
You are correct. The OP dd not specify Static, dynamic or target. Only strongest.
"Most practical" will vary based upon the situation. Strongest does not.
So, I submit that what you have said about the Palm heel is that it may be more practical than the Punch. That does not mean it is as strong, stronger or strongest.
Now, as one poster pointed out we would then have to define "Strongest" . As we know there are different types of forces at play. A slowly moving truck has a lot of force. A bullet has a lot of force. The issue is how does that translate into "Strongest" .
*cough*F=MA*cough*.
I had my breaking experience in my head as well; all things being equal a punch probably would edge the palm heel strike in pure power. I still maintain that the palm-heel is the more effective all around strike.
To me, it depends on the situation. Breaking bricks, I prefer palm-heel strike. With the downward motion a tremendous amount of power can be generated. But two years ago, when a fellow threw beer on my wife and me, (we had asked him to leave a private party) the basic punch to the kisser took him out quickly. In this case, speed is the most important piece and in a motion directed out from the body, as opposed to down, I think the hand position of the punch allows the muscles to fire more quickly. The palm heel requires you to put a certain amount of tension in the arm which in the outward direction, slows you down.
In my mid-50's and practicing tkd more than 30 years.
In my mid-50's and practicing tkd more than 30 years.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Because it's still possible to injure trained hands when punching. I've known people who trained for years that broke knuckles and fingers breaking patio blocks, boards, even sparring. When I say "more reliable", I mean it's the strike that's going to break the other guy's nose if I have to. The extra coverage IMO is worth the trade off in the extra power you get from one focused point and at a certain amount of power that difference just doesn't matter.
.
Thank you. Makes perfect sense. as opposed to:
bluewaveschool
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Re: The strongest hand tech in TKD
whichever doesn't involve the sine wave.
I have no idea how this ads anything t the discussion.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
If you condition your hands, then you reduce the chance of knuckle injury.
Another basic concept is to hit something hard with something soft and hit something soft with something hard.
ForeverStudent
Yellow Belt
I don't know how strongest, it's general term.
However,it could be straight punch because knuckles can be hardened much, and it's very small hitting surface. Delivered in philtrum it could be really devastating.
Elbow also, small and hard hitting surface.
But i think it depends on many parameters..strongest is really general term.
However,it could be straight punch because knuckles can be hardened much, and it's very small hitting surface. Delivered in philtrum it could be really devastating.
Elbow also, small and hard hitting surface.
But i think it depends on many parameters..strongest is really general term.
Cirdan
Senior Master
The sine wave has been discussed here at length before. It seems to me that the exaggerated version at least is the case of a misinterpetation.
I think the trick is to have sine wave without the sine wave
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewaveschool
whichever doesn't involve the sine wave.
I get that and I understnd sine wave has its critcis and rightly so, to an extent for those who exagerate it (except that a lot of moves are exagerated in patterns. A whole other debate as to why this is good or bd and how good or bad)
I jusr thought it atypical for this poster, unlike someone just as myself and Twin Fist to throw out a seemingly negative comment which did not ad anything to the discussion.
Originally Posted by bluewaveschool
whichever doesn't involve the sine wave.
The sine wave has been discussed here at length before. It seems to me that the exaggerated version at least is the case of a misinterpetation.
I think the trick is to have sine wave without the sine wave
I get that and I understnd sine wave has its critcis and rightly so, to an extent for those who exagerate it (except that a lot of moves are exagerated in patterns. A whole other debate as to why this is good or bd and how good or bad)
I jusr thought it atypical for this poster, unlike someone just as myself and Twin Fist to throw out a seemingly negative comment which did not ad anything to the discussion.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Kacey gave one of the best explanations I`ve seen to date regarding the sine wave here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=907420#post907420
Personally I think is better to teach to keep the head level from the start, but to each his own.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=907420#post907420
Personally I think is better to teach to keep the head level from the start, but to each his own.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
No, your not to CMA-ish...your right.
Watch any good Sanda fighter on mainland China or any good CMA fighter for that matter. I trained Jujutsu, Taekwondo, Changquan, Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, Wing Chun and Police/Military Sanda and the power comes from the root and is directed by the waist and in order to get most power there most efficiently you need to be relaxed.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
I liked that discussion. It is a common problem as note by others, not just related to Sine wave.
If an instrutor says something is good, a student often thinks more is better. I woul also submit that mnay pattern techniques, not exclusively within the Chang hon system are exagerated. (Like pullin the opposite hand to the hip.) Alternate application theory aside, there are all sorts of reasons why thi may or may not be a good learning tool.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
The sine wave has been discussed here at length before. It seems to me that the exaggerated version at least is the case of a misinterpetation.
I think the trick is to have sine wave without the sine wave
That's the best one line summary of the topic ever.
It doesn't matter whether you prefer the term 'grounded' or 'rooted' or 'spring leg' or any other name for the concept. In all these cases, I simply don't believe it's necessary to have a visible rising and falling effect to demonstrate the idea.
Some might say it is exaggerated for beginners as they can see the big motion to emulate it. Yet one could make the opposite argument that the big motion is counter-effective judged by videos all over the net of high dans demonstrating and teaching it. At this point, is it fair to say that the big motion sine wave has taken over and it is the de facto standard if not the official one?
I finished reading A Killing Art this weekend. (Thanks for the recommendation, Mr. Weiss.) The author of the book makes the argument that General Choi in fact added the noticeable rising and falling to his patterns in order to disinherit and disenfranchise the TKD instructors who had left him.
