Can we call MMA a style?

[Steve]

But this eases a deeper question, I'm in the middle of designing my own version of karate, i do this bit by bit, week by week as i slightly and some times substantial change the techneque to suit me, and my body type and my pluses and weakness. I'm big with long arms and legs, a lot of the close quarter stuff doesn't suit me, I like to fight at range, some of it doesn't fit my range of motion particularly going low or high kicks. With in half a dozen runs I've redesigned it , to work for me.

my insteucter leaves me to it, though once in a while says, " very good joe, but its not actually karate" but it is, ! I learned it at a karate class, its far more effective for me, than something designed for the body shape of ancient Asian people.

so is what I'm doing karate or not?

At some point, if you veer off too far, it's not going to be karate any more. It might be a martial art, though. Or a sport. Or both

 

[DaveB]

But this eases a deeper question, I'm in the middle of designing my own version of karate, i do this bit by bit, week by week as i slightly and some times substantial change the techneque to suit me, and my body type and my pluses and weakness. I'm big with long arms and legs, a lot of the close quarter stuff doesn't suit me, I like to fight at range, some of it doesn't fit my range of motion particularly going low or high kicks. With in half a dozen runs I've redesigned it , to work for me.

my insteucter leaves me to it, though once in a while says, " very good joe, but its not actually karate" but it is, ! I learned it at a karate class, its far more effective for me, than something designed for the body shape of ancient Asian people.

so is what I'm doing karate or not?

I would say yes.
I think your instructor probably means it's not the karate you paid him to teach you, but especially in karate your art is supposed to become your own.

Unless he just thinks your not ready for that yet.

 

[Martial D]

Look at the emergence of esports(competitive video games).

At the point you begin to compete in competitions, are you no longer playing video games?

If you win a pie eating competition, will your **** be a different color and texture than the person that just ate a lot of pie because they were hungry?

 

[DaveB]

You can enter an MMA tournament doing just karate, just wrestling, just boxing, etc. You'll lose, but you can do it. MMA is just a catch all term for fighting at all ranges, and the current state of the art(for those that don't want to get murked) reflects that.

Still, we see exceptionally talented specialists(Wonderboy, Verdun, Maia etc) having some success.

So are you prepared to concede that any and all fighting styles that were not originally designated for war(Tai chi, aikido, etc) are not actually martial arts? You sort of have to to remain consistent.

Yes, but consistent with what I actually said as opposed to what you think I said.

I'm pretty sure I used the phrases "dealing with violence" and "self defence". To my knowledge both those arts and all TMA meet that criteria.

But since you've conceded finally that mma is a ruleset or group of rulesets, not a single codified method for dealing with violence (also known as a martial art) it seems my point is made.

 

[jobo]

I would say yes.
I think your instructor probably means it's not the karate you paid him to teach you, but especially in karate your art is supposed to become your own.

Unless he just thinks your not ready for that yet.

thanks so do I, it's rather were he leaves me practising a,skill, where i grab a punch, pull and put on a wrist lock and he returns to find I'm practising dodging the punch and kicking my partner in the chest instead. coz his is silly and mine works.

 

[Martial D]

Yes, but consistent with what I actually said as opposed to what you think I said.

I'm pretty sure I used the phrases "dealing with violence" and "self defence". To my knowledge both those arts and all TMA meet that criteria.

But since you've conceded finally that mma is a ruleset or group of rulesets, not a single codified method for dealing with violence (also known as a martial art) it seems my point is made.

Again, Tai chi wasn't originally created to deal with violence.

And again, mma meets your rate arbitrary criteria of 'dealing with violence' and 'self defense'.

But I feel like you will again ignore this. Your prejudice against mma seems impervious to reason.

 

[DaveB]

I just had a thought.

@DaveB is suggesting that MMA is a sport, and so cannot be a martial art. The two are mutually exclusive. It's true that a dog will never be a cat, even though both animals might crap on your floor. They might both be floor crappers, but a shitzu will never be a calico. In the same way, MMA, as a sport, just is a different thing. Is that true, DaveB? I'm sincerely not trying to put words in your mouth, but to sum up.

If this is somewhat true, my confusion, and maybe some other people, is that this is independent of application. If sport and martial art are different creatures, this would be true regardless of application. A sport that is trained and used for self defense would not be a martial art because it is a sport. Period. Trying to justify your perspective beyond this just muddies the waters.

@gpseymour suggests that a style can be both a sport and a martial art. That the two are not mutually exclusive. He's not too worried about distinguishing between a sport or a martial art. For him, the key is application, which as I explained above, is really irrelevant to DaveB. So, a dog that craps on the floor or a cat that craps on the floor. The salient point is that they are both crapping on the floor. And the end result, even though both are coming at it from different directions, is a stinky room.

@DaveB I said before, I think you're a smart dude, but I predict that your perspective will soften over time. You have some interesting ideas that I appreciate. The reality, though, is that martial arts styles are both too inbred and also too diverse to make it easy to apply binary reasoning to them. They are not all one thing or another. Usually, they're some combination of both.

Thanks for the compliment Steve, and for trying to understand.

I don't consider my position to be a binary one. There is indeed a sport called Taekwondo. But if I train everyday to win a taekwondo match and nothing else, I will not pass the belt grading for ANY Taekwondo martial art rank.

Yet I can go to classes to learn the martial art called Taekwondo, pass my grading and still fight in the tournament.

The word Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art. Hell the martial art Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art.

But the sport of Taekwondo cannot be the martial art. One is bigger both in content and in scope than the other.

And if I train in only the sport of tkd but with the intent to learn self defence, I would have done myself a disservice by not training appropriately to my goals and my knowledge in my chosen area will be lacking.

 

[Tez3]

If you win a pie eating competition, will your **** be a different color and texture than the person that just ate a lot of pie because they were hungry?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Again, Tai chi wasn't originally created to deal with violence.

Actually I think you will find it was. A History of Tai Chi Chuan

 

[Martial D]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

That competing at a thing does not change the nature of the thing.

Actually I think you will find it was. A History of Tai Chi Chuan

Well, that blurb is very abridged. Many years ago, I read a rather interesting book entitled 'a history of Chinese martial arts'(or something similar, I'll see if I can dig it out of my collection) that claims taichi evolved out of a set of relaxation exercises.

But even if that were not true, would that change the nature of what it is NOW?

 

[Tez3]

But even if that were not true, would that change the nature of what it is NOW?

It's not 'blurb' btw and there is a list of citations you can follow up. It's from Stanford University's group so I imagine they are as meticulous about the accuracy of the history of their style as they are about their academic studies.

I'm not going to argue CMA with you but I will tell you I have seen Tai Chi used as a martial art. It was very from from being a slow 'relaxation' style.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the compliment Steve, and for trying to understand.

I don't consider my position to be a binary one. There is indeed a sport called Taekwondo. But if I train everyday to win a taekwondo match and nothing else, I will not pass the belt grading for ANY Taekwondo martial art rank.

Yet I can go to classes to learn the martial art called Taekwondo, pass my grading and still fight in the tournament.

The word Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art. Hell the martial art Taekwondo can be both sport and Martial art.

But the sport of Taekwondo cannot be the martial art. One is bigger both in content and in scope than the other.

And if I train in only the sport of tkd but with the intent to learn self defence, I would have done myself a disservice by not training appropriately to my goals and my knowledge in my chosen area will be lacking.

I get it. Here's a question, though. If self defense is the goal, wouldn't limiting oneself to any curriculum, whether sport or martial art, be dangerously limiting?

Another question, do you think it's possible for a sport to have a more complete curriculum than a martial art (using both terms as you define them)?

 

[DaveB]

Again, Tai chi wasn't originally created to deal with violence.

And again, mma meets your rate arbitrary criteria of 'dealing with violence' and 'self defense'.

But I feel like you will again ignore this. Your prejudice against mma seems impervious to reason.

LOL

Now that's hilarious.

In trying to call out my bias you reveal your own. I attach ZERO negative value to the term sport. To me this discussion is like asking is a hammer a nail? Related items but different,

As for your claims about Taichi, I'll happily concede the point of you have something other than your word.
And you already admitted mma is a group of rulesets not an ma.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but consistent with what I actually said as opposed to what you think I said.

I'm pretty sure I used the phrases "dealing with violence" and "self defence". To my knowledge both those arts and all TMA meet that criteria.

But since you've conceded finally that mma is a ruleset or group of rulesets, not a single codified method for dealing with violence (also known as a martial art) it seems my point is made.

MMA meets that criteria as well. You have gone back to whether MMA is a rule set or a style. It is both.

 

[jobo]

At some point, if you veer off too far, it's not going to be karate any more. It might be a martial art, though. Or a sport. Or both

it will be what ever i choose to call it, there is no defintion of karate that would automatically exclude jofu karate, from being karate.

 

[Steve]

it will be what ever i choose to call it, there is no defintion of karate that would automatically exclude jofu karate, from being karate.

This goes back to another thread. You can call a dog a cat, but that doesn't make it one.

 

[DaveB]

thanks so do I, it's rather were he leaves me practising a,skill, where i grab a punch, pull and put on a wrist lock and he returns to find I'm practising dodging the punch and kicking my partner in the chest instead. coz his is silly and mine works.

In that case you should train something else where you have a teacher that you respect.

 

[Encho]

Hi martial D,
Supposedly, Chen style evolved from a combination of things with Chen wanting.
Chen style was largely a long fist style from what I recall and wanting added daoyin, and other stuff from manuals to the Chen form resulting in what is regarded as Chen taijiquan. I think in my opinion what was created in terms of usage depends on what the student is after, since taijiquan offers all of it making it a unique art to study.

 

[jobo]

In that case you should train something else where you have a teacher that you respect.

i do respect him, just a lot of the syllabus doesn't suit me, why would a do a dainty thee step move to me the right to put a wrist lock on, when i can kick his knee from right where i am,,,, ?

 

[DaveB]

That competing at a thing does not change the nature of the thing.



Well, that blurb is very abridged. Many years ago, I read a rather interesting book entitled 'a history of Chinese martial arts'(or something similar, I'll see if I can dig it out of my collection) that claims taichi evolved out of a set of relaxation exercises.

But even if that were not true, would that change the nature of what it is NOW?

Neither point is my argument.

 

[DaveB]

MMA meets that criteria as well. You have gone back to whether MMA is a rule set or a style. It is both.

ok.