Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Rich Parsons]

How are you guys still following this thread 20 pages in? I just skimmed it and I can't pay attention to the pointless back and forth. Not even sure what everyone's specific arguments are at this point.

To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.

 

[Steve]

Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite. There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.

Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire. Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level. That's all.

That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves. Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking. They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting. It's common knowledge that lawyers don't like to put people on the jury that are better looking than themselves.

 

[Steve]

To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.

No it's not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite. There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.

Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire. Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level. That's all.

That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves. Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking. They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.

I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite. There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.

Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire. Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level. That's all.

That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves. Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking. They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.

Steve,

Twice Defense attorneys did not let me finish once I was half way through Engineer.
One time a Judge covering for another judge who had a family emergency, asked, and with the number of police, doctors, nurses, and engineers, he went back and told everyone in the court room to consider settling or they would begin jury selection.
None of the Defense attorneys saw me for race or size.

There are other situations that fit in between.

I was a witness for an accident where someone died.
I testified for the prosecution.
And before the defense could go, the Judge continued to ask me questions to get details of the intersections and timed lights and such.
The Defense then asked me more questions. He even commented that for a Prosecution witness for Man-Slaughter , I was sure helping his case. I smiled and turned to the judge and asked if I could reply, he smiled and yes.
I told him, I was presenting the data as I saw it, and knew it to be for visibility and such.

The Widow, understood it was an accident.
The prosecution asked for conviction.
The Defense attorney and client had done judge and no jury.
He had spent months in jail as he could not afford the bail. His ex-wife ( as they divorced while he was in jail for legal reasons ) was trying to keep the house and their one vehicle left going.

The judge, convicted with time served, and released that day.

So my experience is not the some total the world or USA or Michigan or even my county, it is that the evidence was not about being White, or Non White, it was about being an engineer.

Good or bad that was my experience.

 

[lklawson]

Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite. There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.

Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire. Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level. That's all.

That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves. Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking. They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting. It's common knowledge that lawyers don't like to put people on the jury that are better looking than themselves.

Well, like I wrote, I figured it was because I probably have expertise, experience, or a social relationship which touches on the area that they are trying. I.E.: "I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.

Cool, but actual jury composition statistics don't seem to bear that out. Maybe they just aren't very good at telling the difference between people who are well educated and people who aren't. I don't know.

Edit: To be somewhat serious here, I think there's a difference between selecting (or trying to select) jurors who are sympathetic to your arguments, and people who are "educated" or "ignorant" or "easily swayed." As I said earlier, those sound more like little lies we tell ourselves.

But hey, if you believe it, nothing I say will change your mind.

 

[Steve]

Well, like I wrote, I figured it was because I probably have expertise, experience, or a social relationship which touches on the area that they are trying. I.E.: "I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Could be you're just too good looking. I know that's a thing from personal experience. I also had a lawyer tell me one time directly that I am one handsome SOB, so it has to be true.

 

[lklawson]

Could be you're just too good looking. I know that's a thing from personal experience. I also had a lawyer tell me one time directly that I am one handsome SOB, so it has to be true.

That's always a possibility. I've been told that I have exactly the same hairstyle as Bruce Willis.

 

[Steve]

That's always a possibility. I've been told that I have exactly the same hairstyle as Bruce Willis.

Just out of curiosity, are we talking Bruce Willis

Or Bruce Willis?

 

[lklawson]

Just out of curiosity, are we talking Bruce Willis
View attachment 27936

Or Bruce Willis?

View attachment 27937

Bruce Willis

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[_Simon_]

To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.

Surely not!

 

[Mider]

I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.

Yup, that’s why I don’t understand the argument, well you don’t run a school so you can’t criticize it, you aren’t a dr you can’t criticize a dr.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yup, that’s why I don’t understand the argument, well you don’t run a school so you can’t criticize it, you aren’t a dr you can’t criticize a dr.

What ?!?
I am not getting your point.

PS: Any idea on the previous questions you might decide to review and post an answer?

 

[PhotonGuy]

My definition of McDojo's would need this guy in the front of the Dojo as the Grandmaster

Some of the people on this forum no doubt know about as much about the martial arts as Ronald McDonald, so they could be grandmasters of the mcdojos that meet your definition.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.

Well that would be none of the dojos that I've trained at regularly.

 

[GojuTommy]

Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.

That’s extremely closed minded.
If you’re dojo is a mcdojo why is it offensive to call what it is?
Getting offended because you invested time and money into it is just an expression of a fragile ego.

I hate it but the dojo I came up in was a borderline mcdojo, and by the time I came back from the navy it was a full blow. Mcdojo.
I invested a helluva lot of emotional energy, time, and my parents’ money.

It takes a mature person to realize they’ve been duped. Whether the person duping you was doing it on purpose or not is kinda irrelevant.

 

[GojuTommy]

Well that would be none of the dojos that I've trained at regularly.

Just curious as to what makes you so confident about that?

 

[GojuTommy]

My daughter's first MA school was a TKD school that I labeled a McDojos. It had lots of students and it was one of several in a chain. But the one my daughter was in was run by the founder. We were there a year, contract I did not want, and early on I labeled it as such. I took my daughter to a Saturday function there, it was a cookout, demo and other things like a bouncy house (she was in elementary school at the time). I looked around at all the kids there, after the demo, that were in this school and the physical fitness levels (great shape) of the older (highschool) kids there and it hit me.

Is this the TKD that I first started training in 1976? .... No
But it was serving a purpose, yes the guy was making scads of money, yes he stopped talking to me early on when he found out I trained with Jae Hun Kim in Boston. Was it what I would call TKD? No. But all these kids had something positive in their life that was in place of all sorts of trouble they could have gotten into in the first place. Where they all great martial artists? No. But surprisingly a few were pretty darn good.

It was serving a purpose beyond the "McDojos" label I had put on it, It was, in its own way, helping a whole lot of kids. And to me that was a positive. I never used the term "McDojos" after that, unless it was in jest here on MT. Did my daughter stay there after the year? No. we moved on to Aikido and she loved it and she was getting good solid training. The original TKD school she was in is still there and going strong, the Aikido dojo is not doing so good since the head (founding) senesi died at the beginning of the pandemic.

I would not train at the aforementioned TKD school, and I do not agree with his business practices, but there is a positive in helping some kids.

Also it hit me, as a parent, I do not think I would have allowed my young daughter to train at the TKD school I went to. No mats, no pads, no protective gear. Linoleum floors.... that is all.. and there were high and low kicks, joint locks and takedowns.

For schools like that for me the dividing line of mcdojoism comes down to honesty about the benefits of training in that school.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That’s extremely closed minded.
If you’re dojo is a mcdojo why is it offensive to call what it is?
Getting offended because you invested time and money into it is just an expression of a fragile ego.

Because the dojo I went to was not a McDojo, even though some of the people on this forum called it such, for a very silly reason.

I hate it but the dojo I came up in was a borderline mcdojo, and by the time I came back from the navy it was a full blow. Mcdojo.
I invested a helluva lot of emotional energy, time, and my parents’ money.

Where was your instructor from? Was he from the orient?