A little of both. I agree with you.Run McDojos? Only if they have a big operation copying the fast-food model based on streamlined production, maximizing profits at the expense of quality.
...Otherwise they are simply bad instructors!
Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
People can be happy with mcdojos, and that as fine, but then don’t complain about the term being offensive if you’re happy with that.
Also franchises aren’t mcdojos. The whole term was literally created around the concept of handing out belts like happy meal toys.
For example if the UFC decided to start franchising gyms to fighters/former fighters no one would realistically call those mcdojos no matter how franchised, or streamlined the training got.
By the same token if a one off school has 12 yr olds that are 3rd Dan, never does sparring or any other sort of pressure testing it will almost universally be referred to a mcdojo if it claims to teach self defense.
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That’s a very arrogant thing to say.
How do you know those other people haven’t been teaching 54 years, and that you’re not doing things too slowly?
What makes you think that after a thousand of years, various instructors before where your lineage broke off hadnt made numerous changes to things already? What makes you think the changes made in another lineage are wrong?
Hyoho
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Adding the word lineage adds yet another very big can of worms. It wasn't so long ago and still exists in some classical Japanese Ryu that lineage does not go outside Japan as in other things it's very insular in attitudes. If you are not on the yearly ryu meibo (listed). You are an "also ran". Nippon Budokan lists Ryu in Japan through associations like Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Each year they have done embu to show what link they have outside Japan by letting foreigners demonstrate. But that is all it is, "a link" and bears little credibility. There are Ryu (the trunk of a sturdy tree. A tree has branches but also leaves that fall off.
KenpoMaster805
2nd Black Belt
I will not call other Karate studios a MCdojo its not right. Let them learn from their mistake if they had a bad instructor its the instructors fault that he doesn't teach good or his student are not even focus or he gives out black belt at age of 10 or 11 that's the instructors fault. their some Martial arts that gives out a black belt to a kid ages 9 or 10 you have to be at least 16 or 17 to get your black belt and its up to you if you decide to go to the studio or not to go
What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?
What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?
Hyoho
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The same as Mr Miyagi?
If someone called my school a mcdojo I wouldn’t care because I know I don’t run a mcdojo.
I’m comfortable with what I know and what I pass on to others.
I would ask on what criteria they are making the claim and then address each point one by one. If I thought the criteria were reasonable and Inwas unable to counter them, I would concede that I was running a McDojo.
Has anyone stated the criteria for a McDojo? Perhaps we can work together to formulate some points. Here are a few I randomly found online that might be a place to start:
1) A weird name - The school has a wacky, gimmicky, or vague name that was likely made up, or it references a martial art but isn't actually a martial art that exists. eh. Joe's Garage Fighting Systems, Snake Crane Boxing, American Jiu-Jitsu, Irish Karate Fu, British Barjitsu Wing Chun, Korean Kenpo Taekwondo, Capoeira Jiu-Jitsu
2) No young adults (15-35yrs old) - If classes are mostly comprised of kids and teens, or older aged out-of-shape mom / dads / granddads / grandmothers, this can be a red flag.
3) Blackbelt fast track programmes - If the school offers a ’black belt program‘, where you pay one fee and you will be fast tracked to the rank of black belt in a few years or less, then this is a sure sign that this school exists to make money (as a first priority) and teach martial arts only as a backseat priority.
4) Overused ‘blackbelt’ references - Trying to cater to the clueless casual customer that anyone can become a "black belt" is one of the biggest signs of a McDojo.
5) There are fees/cost to virtually everything - While most schools charge fees for belt gradings / testings and private lessons, if they are commercialising every single thing in a martial arts school as an extra fee, this could be a red flag.
6) Everyone is eventually promoted - If your school promotes every student on a timely basis, regardless of if they did well on their belt grading or how skilled they actually are, then they are likely a McDojo.
7) Top-heavy hierarchy. Everyone is a blackbelt - If almost every student is a black belt (or worse, if in the kids / teen department), then this school is likely a McDojo.
8) There are made up ranks/belts - If the school advertises a certain martial art that traditionally (or at least officially recognized) does not have rankings or belt levels, then watch out, they may be a McDojo. Beware of instructors who have "black belts" in Kung Fu or Muay Thai - they do not exist!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain? Isn't franchising an intrinsic element? Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.
Is this meant to be a list of things that mean they're a mcdojo, or just red flags that they might be? If the first, I disagree specifically for #'s 1, 2 and 8.
For 1-Plenty of schools choose a weird name, name it X's fighting system, or will list their styles in the name (american jiujitsu and capoeira jiu jitsu for instance-the first one would likely just be a jj offshoot, and the second probably teaches capoeira and bjj).
For 2 - definitely a red flag, but schools can be in flux. And how big are the adult classes? If there's like 5 people total attending the adult classes, then happening to not have anyone in that age range could just be chance. And if it's located near a senior center or is a traditionally 'old' style, it makes sense as well.
I'm not a fan of adding belts to styles that don't traditionally have them, but it doesn't automatically mean an issue with the school. Could just be something the instructor instituted to make their curriculum easier/more segmented, or because they got tired of people complaining about lack of belts. Or their own instructor introduced belts for some reason.
This also ignores that mcdojo's aren't inherintly bad. I think it was Steve mentioned gracie jj is technically a mcdojo system under most definitions, but it's still teaching legitimate bjj.
If by franchising you mean ‘several branches’, I don’t think that necessarily implies McDojohood!
MA seem to follow more of a business/for profit model in the U.S. whereas in the U.K. (my only experience) clubs tend to be amateur in nature and feel and cover expenses at most (hall hire, insurance). But if every aspect of a dojo‘s running is monetised ($5 to use the toilets) then overcharging may be attractive to some types of people for whom making money is their central concern. Perhaps if the teacher’s only source of income is their dojo and their only means of making a living, then that might be an incentive to McDojofy their enterprise with lots of extras…extra belts, skipping levels for a fee, fast track blackbelt courses etc.
In my opinion, turning any hobby/pastime/sport into a professional venture will attract the money makers at the detriment to the activity. But this is what gives us wonderful things like FIFA (sarcasm).
MA seem to follow more of a business/for profit model in the U.S. whereas in the U.K. (my only experience) clubs tend to be amateur in nature and feel and cover expenses at most (hall hire, insurance). But if every aspect of a dojo‘s running is monetised ($5 to use the toilets) then overcharging may be attractive to some types of people for whom making money is their central concern. Perhaps if the teacher’s only source of income is their dojo and their only means of making a living, then that might be an incentive to McDojofy their enterprise with lots of extras…extra belts, skipping levels for a fee, fast track blackbelt courses etc.
In my opinion, turning any hobby/pastime/sport into a professional venture will attract the money makers at the detriment to the activity. But this is what gives us wonderful things like FIFA (sarcasm).
Red flags I think and an overall assessment and impression may be required.
You might go on a restaurant date with a very attractive, smartly dressed, intelligent, charming person who makes good conversation and has a good job (I’m describing myself here
) and be counting your lucky stars. But if during the course of the evening, they’re surly toward the waiting staff and kick a puppy on the way out (red flags), then you might question your initial favourable assessment!
I have to say that if you’re happy with doing Ameri-Do-Te, enjoy it and the people you train with, then do continue. If false ancestry and lineages are pulled out the bag then that’s not so good. But this is not confined to modern arts. I believe there’s a famous Okinawa 10th Dan Karate master who has ‘exaggerated‘ his lineage associations, for example!
Here we come to the crux of the matter. There is no generally agreed upon definition of the word.
A large percentage of people who use the term "McDojo" do so as a general pejorative for a school they perceive to have poor instruction and low standards. (Some even use it for entire arts that they feel are sub-par.)
Another significant percentage add the stipulation that the school is focused on extracting maximum profit off the students in addition to having poor instruction and standards.
Many people use "McDojo" to describe a constellation of common business methods and teaching practices: rapid rank advancement with fees for each belt test, hidden membership fees, special "black belt clubs", long-term contracts, focus on teaching children, avoidance of any training which would be strenuous or painful enough to scare off casual hobbyists, exaggerated claims for the effectiveness of the art and the qualifications of the instructor, etc, etc, etc. The implication is still typically pejorative - that the school supplies poor quality training for excessive prices.
A very small handful of people, such as @Steve, attempt to provide a more neutral, less subjective definition of "McDojo": a business model built around franchises with a standardized curriculum/ranking/pricing/etc. making no judgements regarding the actual quality of instruction. If we were starting from scratch in inventing a word, this might be a more useful definition. It starts by comparison to the business method of McDonalds and focuses on objective metrics rather than subjective perception of quality. However the word is now widespread as a pejorative and almost no one uses it in the way that Steve suggests.
I personally suspect that the origin of "McDojo" was rooted in a few ideas: Firstly, that McDonalds food isn't very good or nutritious. Secondly that McDonalds is popular among children. Thirdly, that McDonalds serves food quickly. So whoever initially invented the word slapped it onto schools that they perceived as catering to children, providing poor instruction and quick gratification via rank promotion. From there it accumulated additional derogatory connotations depending on the speaker.
I actually think that focusing on the McDonalds business model as a basis for the term McDojo works against the common usage. Whatever criticism you may have for McDonalds, they do provide very inexpensive meals for their customers. In contrast, a typical criticism of "McDojos" is that they are constantly looking for ways to gouge extra money out of their students. Perhaps the McDonalds comparison would hold up better if McDojo franchise owners were required to pay for a belt vending machine on premises which was always broken, because the corporate overlords had a profitable sweetheart deal with the belt vending machine company.
All of this adds up to a long-winded way of explaining why I don't find the word "McDojo" useful. If I have a criticism of a school and feel the need to voice it, I'll just explain the specific factors which I find objectionable.
False ancestry and lineages are absolutely not exclusively a modern phenomenon. Just think of all the traditional Chinese martial arts claiming a lineage going back to the Shaolin temple, despite all evidence to the contrary. With a few exceptions, the claimed history of most martial arts becomes extremely suspect once you go back more than a couple of generations.
J. Pickard
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We do the same thing for our kids class (13 and under). Every 3-4 months we hold a testing and it is up to each student to complete the written test in the members section of our website and fill out a "request to test" form. in this form they have to fully explain why they believe they are ready to test in detail. If their reason is satisfactory then they are allowed to take the physical portion of the test. If they pass they get their next rank, if they fail they can try again next testing (no testing fees). Regardless of if they pass or fail, each student gets a detailed grading sheet back with scores and detailed explanations on what they do well and what they need work on. All of our testing dates are located near the main entrance on a calendar so all students know when they are happening.
This does 2 things. 1- it teaches the students to be responsible for themselves. We don't tell them when the testing is, that information is posted in plain view and they all know where to find it, it is up to them to stay on top of it and take the initiative if they want to be promoted. 2- it helps to teach kids how to take an introspective look at their training and develop an awareness of their strengths and weaknesses. They have to be honest with themselves because students do fail the testing if they are not ready, just requesting to test does not mean automatically passing.
What kind of explanations are deemed satisfactory?
McDonalds are an extremely wealthy organisation which suggests they charge more than the overall value of their ‘food’, so perhaps the comparison is a good one!
Anyway….
