Choosing a dojo

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
In Anything you do in life:
One should always do the following:

1) Define what you want to do or accomplish.
2) Learn about what you want to do, this way you can recognize those that have what you want.
3) Do, what you want to do.

Here is another point, Good Choices come from experience, and experience is gained by making bad choices. Now you can listen to others to limit the amount of bad choices you make. But, do not get really upset with yourself, if you find yourself a couple of months into training, and you find that you are not happy or satisfied.

This was so good that I had to post it again. I suggest that we all remember this post and when anyone comes to the board and asks about choosing an art/style/teacher/etc we re-post this.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by GouRonin



This was so good that I had to post it again. I suggest that we all remember this post and when anyone comes to the board and asks about choosing an art/style/teacher/etc we re-post this.
:asian:

Gou,


Thanks.! If this is as godo as you and I think it is, then is there some way to get Katih or Arnisador to post it on the FAQ forum for easier linking too?

Ciao

Rich

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
In Anything you do in life:
One should always do the following:

1) Define what you want to do or accomplish.
2) Learn about what you want to do, this way you can recognize those that have what you want.
3) Do, what you want to do.

Here is another point, Good Choices come from experience, and experience is gained by making bad choices. Now you can listen to others to limit the amount of bad choices you make. But, do not get really upset with yourself, if you find yourself a couple of months into training, and you find that you are not happy or satisfied.

I would definatly looove to see this advice woven into the FAQ for choosing Schools/Arts/Teachers.

Take it to a vote!
:soapbox:

 

[Eraser]

Gou,

I second that motion!!


Rich,

NIce work dude... Its very similar to the guide line that I use for myself (just worded differently)

 

[GouRonin]

Rich and I have suggested this be added in some way to the FAQ. Eraser has seconded it. Do we need to vote it in through everyone or what now?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Rich and I have suggested this be added in some way to the FAQ. Eraser has seconded it. Do we need to vote it in through everyone or what now?

Just let us know! I haven't been following this thread myself and just came back to it today to see where it had headed. Feel free to PM or e-mail suggestions and requests. I'll bring it to the attention of the other mods. now.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

 

[Nightingale]

These don't apply to every McDojo, and they may apply to schools that aren't McDojos, but this is a generalization.

ways to identify a mcdojo:

Ask them how many black belts they have under the age of ten. If its one or more, look elsewhere.

Do they give you a decent trial period (a week or two) before pressuring you to sign up? If not, look elsewhere. You can't make a good decision about a school with one private lesson.

Do they pressure you to sign a long term contract? If there are no short term options, tread carefully.

Is the sale a "high pressure" sale? Do they pressure you to sign up quickly and for a long period of time? If so, be careful.

Do they "guarantee" a black belt if you pay more money, or sign up for a certain length of time? if so, look elsewhere. Black belts are SKILL based. They shouldn't be bought. You can buy a belt, but not the skill that should go with it.

Do they teach self defense, with a student acting as the attacker? Not just in the air stuff, but actually working with another person? If not, look elsewhere.

Do you come home with a bruise or two? As a beginner, you probably should... if not, re-evaluate.

Are they a chain (not just part of an association, but a chain of schools with the same name)? If so, tread cautiously.

Ask what percentage of students get a black belt. If its higher than about 20-30%, look elsewhere. Less than 1% of people who start martial arts usually earn a black belt. 15 or 20 percent could just mean a really good instructor, but more than 20%, and you're most likely looking at a mcdojo.

Did the instructor ask you if you've trained before? if not, look elsewhere.

Did the instructor honor your old rank if you've trained before in the same style? If not, be very cautious... the only thing they have to gain by taking your rank is your money from testing fees. Most instructors will simply hold you at your current rank until you are caught up and remember the stuff you've forgotten.

Does the instructor, when trying to recruit you, tell you horror stories about the other schools in town? If so, tread carefully. They should be selling their school to you, not making you afraid to go elsewhere. Just like in politics, beware of mudslinging campaigns.

Ask the instructor why they teach martial arts. If you don't like the answer, or if the answer has anything to do with finances, leave.

And last but certainly not least, how do you feel about the instructor? What do you think the instructor's motivation for teaching is? Is the instructor more interested in you, or your wallet? If its the latter, leave now.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok...heres the question on adding this to the FAQs:

Add the entire thread, or can we pare it down to a single "long" post and add that instead?

Give me a couple of opinions/thoughts on how we should do this and we will add it to the FAQs ASAP.

(Nice catch folks...I missed this thread.)

 

[Eraser]

Night,
you too have some great points.. but not all can mean that they are a McDojo......

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Do you come home with a bruise or two? As a beginner, you probably should... if not, re-evaluate.

I didn't come home with a bruise until after my first month (that's when they allowed me to spar a bit) Dang.. I personaly think you should let your new students (especially if they've never taken a MA) get accustom to the movemetns.. if ya send em home with a bruise the first night.. they might not come back (this is not the case for just women either) IF you Bruise up your new students they might think that its too rough of a MA and then they may go else where.. I was comfortable enough with the basic movements before they started throwing me around. (and now they don't stop)

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Are they a chain (not just part of an association, but a chain of schools with the same name)? If so, tread cautiously.

My school has 4 branches with the same name!! Does that mean they are all McDojo... NO WAy!! each school has an instructor that is fully qualified and is in similar mind set on the focus of the student welfare and the teaching material itself.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Ask what percentage of students get a black belt. If its higher than about 20-30%, look elsewhere. Less than 1% of people who start martial arts usually earn a black belt. 15 or 20 percent could just mean a really good instructor, but more than 20%, and you're most likely looking at a mcdojo.

I woulnd't necessarily think that over 20 % its a McDojo, i would think that its a school with dedicated students... i think that if your intention is to buy your black belt, then its possible you want to start your own black belt factory too (all for the $$$)
Learning doesn't stop at your black belt... i stops when your dead.. even then.. i don't have the knowledge to proove if it does then too.. (cuz then i'd be dead.. and you would have a ghost in here) I would watch to see how fast the lower ranking students and the more physical (bigger stronger ones) advanced.. if you see that they are advancing a what you believe is a very fast rate.. then i would re consider.



You have some very great points night.. its just that I know my school isn't a black-belt factory (McDojo as we are calling it) but you can look at a few of your points in a different way!!

P.s This is a great discussion!!! :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

WOW! I didn't get to spar until after I had been there over 6 months!!
There is not set standard for judging somethign like that. You have to judge for yourself. Does the instructor take interest in you during class, is he cautious of your safty, things like that.

MHO

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

These don't apply to every McDojo, and they may apply to schools that aren't McDojos, but this is a generalization.

ways to identify a mcdojo:


Do you come home with a bruise or two? As a beginner, you probably should... if not, re-evaluate.

Are they a chain (not just part of an association, but a chain of schools with the same name)? If so, tread cautiously.

Ask what percentage of students get a black belt. If its higher than about 20-30%, look elsewhere. Less than 1% of people who start martial arts usually earn a black belt. 15 or 20 percent could just mean a really good instructor, but more than 20%, and you're most likely looking at a mcdojo.

I said at the beginning of my post that these are just things to look for, but they are things that are more common in McDojos than in regular schools.

I used words like "be cautious" and "re-evaluate" rather than "you're in a McDojo, RUN!" because there's no set formula. All I meant was that those are the warning signs. Its like that checklist for diabetes... you can answer all 10 questions "yes" and still not be a diabetic... (although if you do take that checklist test and answer more than a few as "yes" go to your doc asap)

 

[Eraser]

NIght....

I thought so.... my intention was not to say you are wrong.. but just that some warning signs may not be warnings but indications of a good school!!

Hopefully i have not offended you!! :asian:

 

[Nightingale]

no offense taken.

 

[Amanda Sedai]

Update: The local community rec center that I belong to is offering karate/judo lessons. I'm considering trying this. (it's a 5-week session, which makes it much less of a commitment than the 6-month/2-year program I mentioned earlier. And I'm pretty sure they offer sessions continually at this rec center, so I think if I want to continue after the first 5 weeks I can just sign up again. I'll have to ask, though.)

Anyhow, here are my questions about this:

-It may be that they're offering karate and judo as separate classes, but the way the class is described it sounds like karate and judo are being taught in the same class. Is it "acceptable" for someone to learn two completely different martial arts at the same time?

-All I know about judo is that it involves grappling and throwing people. The mental images this conjures up could earn me a place in the "darn stereotypes!" thread. Seriously, I'm picturing people being thrown across the room like acrobats. So what is judo really like? And can someone like me, who is extremely un-agile and wears glasses do this? (I had no problem with my glasses in karate, but then no one tried to throw me in karate either. I can just picture my glasses flying off my face in judo.)

-The description says the instructor won an award recently from the "World Tang Soo Do" Association. What the heck is that? And isn't "tang soo do" Korean? (Karate and judo are Japanese, right?)

-As I said before, I like the fact that you pay for only 5 weeks at a time. However, it's about $50 (US) for the 5 week session. Is that a reasonable price? (It sounds like a good price to me, but then I know nothing about how much martial arts lessons are supposed to cost.)

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

In Anything you do in life:

One should always do the following:

1) Define what you want to do or accomplish.

2) Learn about what you want to do, this way you can recognize those that have what you want.

3) Do, what you want to do.

I like that, and agree with everyone who said it should be in the FAQ. Well, let me answer the first one and maybe you guys can help me out with the second (and ultimately the third) one.

The problem (or maybe the good thing) about me is that I want just about everything you can get out of martial arts:

-I want to improve my balance and coordination. I'm extremely uncoordinated (I don't just mean I'm a klutz; I mean I actually had to have occupational therapy until I was about 12 or 13. I'm nowhere near as bad as I used to be but still I'm not the kind of person you'd expect to see doing MA. I figure if average people can turn into agile and coordinated martial artists, maybe if I study MA I can become average.

-It's exercise. I'm overweight. I'm a computer science major who sits in front of a computer all day, if not doing work for school then playing videogames and surfing the web. I need a hobby that actually involves moving more than my wrists.

-Self-defense is a very good thing to know.

-It's a sport. I'll never be Olympic material, but still it would be so cool to actually play a sport and participate in competitions and stuff. :boxing:

-The whole "confidence" and "self-discipline" thing.

Well, any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, everyone. :asian:

 

[George Martin]

Some additional questions are relative to the amount of injuries you may receive. Observing classes will tell you if the white belts are being used as punching bags by the black belts. How much control is there in sparring? Do the students just belt each other around? What protective gear is used? Are they lax about this?
If you are a woman, are you comfortable sparring with men? Do you want to wait till you achieve some degree of competency before doing so.
This may be a little controversial. Everyones thoughts.

 

[arnisador]

The price is reasonable.

Tang Soo Do is Korean Karate--influenced by Shotokan and Chinese kung fu. It's self-defense oriented but also can be sued for sport karate. See our Tang Soo Do forum.

Ordinarily I'd say "no" to learning two arts at once but it's different with Judo and TSD. I'd say go for it--they won't interfere at all; they're too different. Judo is grappling and TSD is kicking and punching.

You can get safety glasses or goggles for Judo but yes the regular glasses will have to go. I just take mine off for BJJ--your'e so close, after all.

Try it! Good luck.

 

[Nightingale]

with regards to glasses...

I wear em. I'm so blind I'll walk into a wall without em. However, I can't wear em in the dojo, and the "safe" glasses just look damned stupid, inhibit your peripheral vision, and just plain get in the way.

my solution:

soft, disposable contacts. they're not any more dangerous than if you were wearing nothing at all, because unlike hard or gas-permeable lenses, the soft ones are as pliable as saran wrap. if you get hit in the eye, the worst that'll happen is you get a black eye and lose your contact lens. (hence, disposables...they cost about two bucks each, so if you lose or tear one, its not a biggie, and you can carry extras in your bag if its an issue. I've never lost one, though, and I've been wearing them for like ten years now).

soft lenses are really easy to get used to. most people don't even notice them after a few days. if you talk to your eye doc, most of them will give you a couple of free pairs to try out to see if they work for you. putting them in is the hard part, taking them out is easy (reach, grab)

talk to your eye doctor and figure out the best solution for you.

 

[Amanda Sedai]

Thanks, everyone.

Crap, I can barely see past my nose without glasses on. How important is sight in judo? I'd take Nightingale's solution but I can't stand having anything in my eyes.

 

[Nightingale]

after a day or so, you don't even notice the contacts... give em a try. your eye doc will give you a free trial pair, so it won't even cost you anything. You'll be amazed at how much more you can see. glasses really cut into your peripheral vision.

sight is very important. if you can't see your opponent, you'll have trouble countering what he or she is doing.

 

[jkn75]

I don't wear mine when I spar but I do during regular class. If I lost my glasses in a fight, how would I react? what can I really see?

Picking a martial art is difficult and can take some time but is well worth it. Also remember if you choose something and don't like it, you can always change to something else after your contract is up.

Good Luck
:asian: