I'm a bit inclined to agree with Tez here. Maybe I'm missing something, but if its a SS match, how can it be a MMA match if MMA rules are not in effect?
Cage Match: Wing Chun vs. Grappler
- Thread starter Si-Je
- Start date
I'm a bit inclined to agree with Tez here. Maybe I'm missing something, but if its a SS match, how can it be a MMA match if MMA rules are not in effect?
It sounds incredibly confusing. San Shou is not mma. MMA has pretty well defined rules and covers both standup and ground fighting. If there's no groundfighting allowed, then it's not MMA.
If the promotor won't go through the trouble of legitimizing his organization for mma and is going to have mma fights, you can guarantee he won't give a crap about fighters safety, and probably won't have insurance for fighters. It's entirely possible that he won't even have qualified medical professionals on hand. I've seen events like this where the promotor would lie to fighters about their opponents, not even have scales on hand for weigh-ins, etc.
If you haven't ironed out money ahead of time, you won't get paid. Period. There's a reason professional fighters and legimate promotors use contracts. They define the agreed upon rules and compensation ahead of time.
I'm not from texas, but I did look up texas sport licensing laws:
http://www.license.state.tx.us/sports/sportslaw.htm
Amateur events are regulated as well. If this promotor isn't following the rules of the state then you should stay away IMHO.
When is this fight scheduled to take place, where is it at and who is the promotor?
If the promotor won't go through the trouble of legitimizing his organization for mma and is going to have mma fights, you can guarantee he won't give a crap about fighters safety, and probably won't have insurance for fighters. It's entirely possible that he won't even have qualified medical professionals on hand. I've seen events like this where the promotor would lie to fighters about their opponents, not even have scales on hand for weigh-ins, etc.
If you haven't ironed out money ahead of time, you won't get paid. Period. There's a reason professional fighters and legimate promotors use contracts. They define the agreed upon rules and compensation ahead of time.
I'm not from texas, but I did look up texas sport licensing laws:
http://www.license.state.tx.us/sports/sportslaw.htm
Sec. 2052.116. Amateur Combative Sports Association Registration.
A person may not act as an amateur combative sports association unless the person is registered under this chapter.
Sec. 2052.117. Amateur Combative Sports Association Registration Requirements.
(a) An applicant for registration as an amateur combative sports association must apply on a form acceptable to
the executive director.
(b) An application must be accompanied by:
(1) a registration fee in the amount set by the commission;
(2) proof of compliance with requirements established by rule for:
(A) insurance; and
(B) surety bonds, if any;
(3) a copy of the rules of the association establishing standards of conduct for contestants and
officials; and
(4) proof that the association is recognized or organized as a nonprofit organization under the laws of
this state or has such status under federal law.
(c) Rules of the association must be approved by the department.the executive director.
(b) An application must be accompanied by:
(1) a registration fee in the amount set by the commission;
(2) proof of compliance with requirements established by rule for:
(A) insurance; and
(B) surety bonds, if any;
(3) a copy of the rules of the association establishing standards of conduct for contestants and
officials; and
(4) proof that the association is recognized or organized as a nonprofit organization under the laws of
this state or has such status under federal law.
Sec. 2052.252. Regulated Amateur Events.
(a) This section applies to an amateur combative sports event, other than an event described by Section
2052.110, in which a fee is charged for admission to the event.
(b) The amateur combative sports association sponsoring or producing the event shall register with the
department not later than 30 days before the date the event begins.
(c) The event may take place only if the executive director approves the event not later than seven days before the date the event begins.2052.110, in which a fee is charged for admission to the event.
(b) The amateur combative sports association sponsoring or producing the event shall register with the
department not later than 30 days before the date the event begins.
(d) Each contestant in the event must have been a member of the amateur combative sports association for the 30-day period immediately preceding the date the event begins and must be a member on the date of the
event.
(e) The amateur combative sports association shall determine the amateur standing of the event contestants and
shall establish training programs consisting of at least 30 days of training for each contestant.
(f) The event is subject to the supervision of the executive director.
(g) Each contestant participating in the event must be examined by a licensed physician within a reasonable
time before the event begins. A licensed physician must be present at ringside during the entire event.
(h) A professional combative sports contestant licensed under this chapter may not participate as a contestant
in the event.event.
(e) The amateur combative sports association shall determine the amateur standing of the event contestants and
shall establish training programs consisting of at least 30 days of training for each contestant.
(f) The event is subject to the supervision of the executive director.
(g) Each contestant participating in the event must be examined by a licensed physician within a reasonable
time before the event begins. A licensed physician must be present at ringside during the entire event.
(h) A professional combative sports contestant licensed under this chapter may not participate as a contestant
Amateur events are regulated as well. If this promotor isn't following the rules of the state then you should stay away IMHO.
When is this fight scheduled to take place, where is it at and who is the promotor?
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OP
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Nevermind.
The fight is on. He's fighting a MMA grappler in a MMA cage. First fight for him of this nature. This promoter does more San Shou fights because they pay their fighters what their worth.
I do expect we'll get there and find out that night that ground fighting is allowed. Doesn't really matter.
The point being it's a competition with a fighter using Wing Chun instead of MMA or BJJ in the cage.
We're really getting hung up on semantics here and missing that. We'll contact the promoter this week and find out more infomation for you guys, but I'm really realizing that the video will speak for itself more.
Unless, people make excuses for his opponent when he loses to a WC fighter. Which is what we expect.
Doesn't much matter, as long as I can keep getting him fights. Whatever the "rules" are.
Thanks for your concern for him. We do appreciate that. But, don't worry too much about him. He's an awesome fighter, and more importantly, and amazing martial artist. He'll be fine. And it will be fun! This is something he enjoys.
I was just really excited because we just found out that he got the fight, much of the details of the fight haven't been discussed yet. The fight is "at the last minute" but he's been training for the past three months, so it's not as spur of the momement as it seems for us.
He and I am tired of WC and kung fu stylists making excusses for not competiting in the cage or whatever. Because they say the rules dilute the art. It doesn't. And he's tired of other styles and MMA/BJJ cage fighters disrespecting our art. There's been years of too much talk on both sides and not enough action.
He wants to put his art to the test in the ring. Any fight, any where he can get a fight to prove the effectiveness of WC in and out of the ring.
No one wants to challenge him out of the ring. So he's coming to them, playing by thier rules, and going to fight in the ring/cage.
We're totally coming to play their game their way. So, for us, it doesn't matter what the rules in the ring are. He'll have to adapt when he gets there anyways. We don't have time or desire to study the opponents right now, it's just an ameture fight. Hopefully, we'll be able to get him a more professional fight soon, in the near future.
The fight is on. He's fighting a MMA grappler in a MMA cage. First fight for him of this nature. This promoter does more San Shou fights because they pay their fighters what their worth.
I do expect we'll get there and find out that night that ground fighting is allowed. Doesn't really matter.
The point being it's a competition with a fighter using Wing Chun instead of MMA or BJJ in the cage.
We're really getting hung up on semantics here and missing that. We'll contact the promoter this week and find out more infomation for you guys, but I'm really realizing that the video will speak for itself more.
Unless, people make excuses for his opponent when he loses to a WC fighter. Which is what we expect.
Doesn't much matter, as long as I can keep getting him fights. Whatever the "rules" are.
Thanks for your concern for him. We do appreciate that. But, don't worry too much about him. He's an awesome fighter, and more importantly, and amazing martial artist. He'll be fine. And it will be fun! This is something he enjoys.
I was just really excited because we just found out that he got the fight, much of the details of the fight haven't been discussed yet. The fight is "at the last minute" but he's been training for the past three months, so it's not as spur of the momement as it seems for us.
He and I am tired of WC and kung fu stylists making excusses for not competiting in the cage or whatever. Because they say the rules dilute the art. It doesn't. And he's tired of other styles and MMA/BJJ cage fighters disrespecting our art. There's been years of too much talk on both sides and not enough action.
He wants to put his art to the test in the ring. Any fight, any where he can get a fight to prove the effectiveness of WC in and out of the ring.
No one wants to challenge him out of the ring. So he's coming to them, playing by thier rules, and going to fight in the ring/cage.
We're totally coming to play their game their way. So, for us, it doesn't matter what the rules in the ring are. He'll have to adapt when he gets there anyways. We don't have time or desire to study the opponents right now, it's just an ameture fight. Hopefully, we'll be able to get him a more professional fight soon, in the near future.
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Hey Si Je, Win or lose, and regardless of whether they include grappling, as long as your "hubbie" doesn't get seriously injured, the experience will be worth it. And like we've been saying on the WC forum, It's time to see more people take WC/WT to the cage. I'm looking forward to the video...even if I have to spend half an hour downloading it (I'm a poor guy stuck with dial-up). Best of luck.
OP
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
LOL! Us too with the dail-up! It make take a really riduclous amout of time for us to just upload the darn thing.
I'm just trying to make sure he's clear to fight his style his way when he gets in the ring. Alot of these promoters and such want to try to force a fighter to learn and/or use grappling/BJJ whatever in their fights. We're not gonna have anything to do with that.
But, this promoter isn't pushing it. The other promoters around here I've been talking to wanted him to be "well rounded" and use technique that they approved of.
Plus, they want him to fight 10 ameture fights for free first before getting a paid fight.
Unacceptable.
He's already fought 8 fights ameture for free in San Shou already. And numerous other real world fighting in the military. He's not a greenhorn. lol!
At least this promoter is wanting to get him a paid fight after this fight in November. But, we'll see.
Thanks for the support, Geezer.
I'm just trying to make sure he's clear to fight his style his way when he gets in the ring. Alot of these promoters and such want to try to force a fighter to learn and/or use grappling/BJJ whatever in their fights. We're not gonna have anything to do with that.
But, this promoter isn't pushing it. The other promoters around here I've been talking to wanted him to be "well rounded" and use technique that they approved of.
Plus, they want him to fight 10 ameture fights for free first before getting a paid fight.
Unacceptable.
He's already fought 8 fights ameture for free in San Shou already. And numerous other real world fighting in the military. He's not a greenhorn. lol!
At least this promoter is wanting to get him a paid fight after this fight in November. But, we'll see.
Thanks for the support, Geezer.
OP
OP
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
He's legitimate, he's just using San Shou rules for now to get his fighters fights. Fights that pay more.
There will be no compensation for this fight. The promoter wants to see hubbie fight first, then he'll be able to say what he can offer us.
He won't offer a contract until he knows if hubbie can fight. Why would he? He hasn't seen him fight yet.
As for the rules of the state, they are being followed.
Hubbie's already got a cornerman, doctor (from his work) and we are taking care of hubbies health and safety.
Our promoter owns a MMA school in Arlington and holds many fights at the local colleges.
I just was confused too about why the rules were San Shou rules but the fight held in a MMA cage. But, if that's the way he wants to do it, then fine. Not a big deal, really. That's safer anyway, San Shou fighting on a three foot raised ring with no ropes sounds more dangerous to me anyways. At least with the cage he doesn't have the chance of falling or being thrown off the ring.
Anyways, We'll see when we get there.
Okay so it is San Shou rather than an MMA fight. (two totally different things) Si-Je I would be concerned that you are not going to get any pay day's down the road if this promoter is only organizing and promoting San Shou fights.
MMA is where the money is at!
Still having said that if your husband is up for the competition and is ready then he should have a good time pay day or no. However if you want to break into the MMA business as a fighter then you are going to have to get with promoters who promoter MMA fights and are paying their fighter's. You will also have to accomodate your system ie. Wing Chun to the MMA game or else probably suffer the consequences.
Still no matter what I wish you and yours the very best!
Still having said that if your husband is up for the competition and is ready then he should have a good time pay day or no. However if you want to break into the MMA business as a fighter then you are going to have to get with promoters who promoter MMA fights and are paying their fighter's. You will also have to accomodate your system ie. Wing Chun to the MMA game or else probably suffer the consequences.
Still no matter what I wish you and yours the very best!
While I'm glad that you're happy for your husband, and I do look forward to the results and video if you post one, you still seem to be confused, or refusing to accept the fact that while this may be taking place in a cage vs. an open, raised platform, it isn't an MMA match, its San Shou, and should be called that. The only thing that's changed is the type of area they're fighting on, but the rules have no conformed to MMA rules.
Well, in the big scope of things, those 'little things' are more important than you think.
If someone drives a compact car, they shouldn't try to tell people or pass the car along as a full size SUV. Its a car. And again, I wish him the best of luck. Of course, there are thousands of awesome fighters out there, and being awesome isn't necessarily a key to success.
Again, good luck to him, and let us know how it goes.
Okay so it is San Shou rather than an MMA fight. (two totally different things) Si-Je I would be concerned that you are not going to get any pay day's down the road if this promoter is only organizing and promoting San Shou fights.MMA is where the money is at!
Still having said that if your husband is up for the competition and is ready then he should have a good time pay day or no. However if you want to break into the MMA business as a fighter then you are going to have to get with promoters who promoter MMA fights and are paying their fighter's. You will also have to accomodate your system ie. Wing Chun to the MMA game or else probably suffer the consequences.
Still no matter what I wish you and yours the very best!
Bold part mine. This is so very true. IMHO, no matter how much someone wants to stay 'pure' to their base art, I think the days of one dimensional fighters are a thing of the past, especially if you want to fight MMA.
Absolutely Mike,
If an IRT practitioner was getting ready for a MMA style fight then months out all we would be doing would be to work on empty hand striking (boxing and Muay Thai), Throws and takedowns plus defenses and then hone the ground game to the extreme. These are all things we do in IRT but in order to get the practitioner ready it would be necessary to focus specifically on the above and take out all of the tool work, small joint manipulations, certain kicks, etc. In order to win in MMA you need to focus specifically for the ring and what you will be facing in the ring.
OP
OP
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Okay guys.
It is under San Shou rules, but that's because that gives the promoter more options and his fighters can fight more.
He's fighting an MMA stylist.
A grappler.
What I usually hear from folks are things like:
1. "WC can't defend against a good clinch in standup (or on the ground) especially when thier back is against the cage." Well see.
or
2. "WC can't defend against a grappling takedown." Again we'll be able to see if that is so in this fight.
3. "Or WC can't defend against a good boxer and hook punching." Again Dai Sau! we'll see in this fight.
4. "Or WC isn't a well rounded style." I disagree. And again we'll be able to see most of that in this fight.
As for getting paid well in MMA or UFC. I'm finding that that is NOT happening for most if not all of the big name fighters. It's sad. And the main reason this promoter focuses on San Shou fights. They pay well!
CBS sports's XC Elite MMA fights pay way more than UFC and other cage matches.
food for thought:
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=1728&zoneid=13
____________________________________________________________
I'm finding many articles about this issue all over the web.
We went with this promoter because he's after the paying fights.
The other MMA promoters in our area wanted him to fight for free 8-10 times before a paying fight of 300-500 dollars. That sucks!
They're taking advantage of these MMA guys, which is an injustice to them and it ticks me off.
So, if and when he does a full MMA cage match, it'll practically be for free. While we've got no medical insurance in the meantime. Sorry, guys, we've got to go where the (honest) money is for now.
In May I'm hoping to get him a MMA match for the troops on base in Texas. That will be a show worth doing for "free".
It is under San Shou rules, but that's because that gives the promoter more options and his fighters can fight more.
He's fighting an MMA stylist.
A grappler.
What I usually hear from folks are things like:
1. "WC can't defend against a good clinch in standup (or on the ground) especially when thier back is against the cage." Well see.
or
2. "WC can't defend against a grappling takedown." Again we'll be able to see if that is so in this fight.
3. "Or WC can't defend against a good boxer and hook punching." Again Dai Sau! we'll see in this fight.
4. "Or WC isn't a well rounded style." I disagree. And again we'll be able to see most of that in this fight.
As for getting paid well in MMA or UFC. I'm finding that that is NOT happening for most if not all of the big name fighters. It's sad. And the main reason this promoter focuses on San Shou fights. They pay well!
CBS sports's XC Elite MMA fights pay way more than UFC and other cage matches.
food for thought:
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=1728&zoneid=13
____________________________________________________________
I'm finding many articles about this issue all over the web.
We went with this promoter because he's after the paying fights.
The other MMA promoters in our area wanted him to fight for free 8-10 times before a paying fight of 300-500 dollars. That sucks!
They're taking advantage of these MMA guys, which is an injustice to them and it ticks me off.
So, if and when he does a full MMA cage match, it'll practically be for free. While we've got no medical insurance in the meantime. Sorry, guys, we've got to go where the (honest) money is for now.
In May I'm hoping to get him a MMA match for the troops on base in Texas. That will be a show worth doing for "free".
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Laoshi77
Orange Belt
But WC's main attacks are directed to the eyes, throat and groin? These targets are not allowed in most forms of sports competitions so in a sense the art is not getting tested properly due to these restrictions.
I believe there was one practitioner of WC who fought in the UFC but he lost and his credentials are surely in question as if it's the video I remember seeing the guy could barely fight let alone use a particular style!
'Si-Je' I wish your husband all the best and when is the fight exactly?
Kind regards.
Yet Si-Je, many MMA top tier fighters have had $100,000 plus pay days at different times. MMA as far as paying fighters is on a much higher level than any type of kickboxing (san shou) included.
As for Wing Chun it is a very effective system but highlighting it in a San Shou match does not mean anything compared to it being in an MMA match. (they are two entirely different animals)
I hope you husband does absolutely great!
I also hope that by doing so he represents Wing chun well. Just don't sell it as a cage match or MMA match as that is not at all what San Shou is.
Good luck and like everyone else here I look forward to seeing some pictures and also some video!
Take it to them!
As for Wing Chun it is a very effective system but highlighting it in a San Shou match does not mean anything compared to it being in an MMA match. (they are two entirely different animals)
I hope you husband does absolutely great!
Good luck and like everyone else here I look forward to seeing some pictures and also some video!
Take it to them!
OP
OP
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Those are common targets of Wing Chun, but not the main ones.
The nose, hinge of the jaw, back of the neck, throat yes, knees, inside of the theigh, back of the knee, etc.
Bui Gee, the last hand form focuses on the throat, eyes and such, but until then you chainpunch the face in general. Sure, on the street I'd prefer the throat, eyes, groin, but the main focus of WC is forward force/pressure, deflection, and relaxation in defense and attack. To adapt, flow, and respond to the energy of an opponent. Too simoltaneously defend and attack. To deflect, kick, step, and punch continiously at the same time. And most importantly, to evolve as an art.
Some say anti-grappling isn't WT, because it didn't come down through the official masters. But, it is born of WT principles and concepts, and is essentially striking while on the ground, chi sau on the ground, chainpunching while on the ground. You even utilize basic stance to keep an opponent from getting between your legs on the ground. (works like a charm too!)
I saw the guys in UFC that were supposed to be WT. Really bad fight. Big black eye on the art in general for WC and WT. Don't know anything about those guys or where they trained from. I'm expecting a better fight from hubbie.
There are wing chun players who have integrated grappling into wing chun. Some teachers will tell you its already there. As always with CMA, how far into it is the teacher able to take you? Does the teacher have the knowledge to begin with?
http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com/videosale.html
http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com/videosale.html
OP
OP
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
HE SCREWED US!
is name is is Frank Nguuen.
And there is no fight. what a COWARD!
I've got another promoter to see if they will let hubbie fight. ~@@@@2
pisses me off!~@@@##!@
Fiu@!@@@@
what the he@@#%&R$%
?????!!!
Bummer!
I called him today, and he was too busy hanging out with some hookers,... bummer! What a ******!
Did I menton his name is Frank Nguyen?
What a fy@@@@@@c@@@34!
Pardon me, I'm usually more of a LADY! LOL!
anyways, what a jerk!
I'll still get video,just can't let my hubbie know.. lol!
L0ve ya'll!
is name is is Frank Nguuen.
And there is no fight. what a COWARD!
I've got another promoter to see if they will let hubbie fight. ~@@@@2
pisses me off!~@@@##!@
Fiu@!@@@@
what the he@@#%&R$%
?????!!!
Bummer!
I called him today, and he was too busy hanging out with some hookers,... bummer! What a ******!
Did I menton his name is Frank Nguyen?
What a fy@@@@@@c@@@34!
Pardon me, I'm usually more of a LADY! LOL!
anyways, what a jerk!
I'll still get video,just can't let my hubbie know.. lol!
L0ve ya'll!
The reason I was asking about his name earlier is that mma is a fairly tightknit community of fighters and promotors. If someone screws over a fighter(s), we let each other know about it.
a quick google search came up with the following:
http://www.txmma.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9943&view=previous
He also has a few threads on other forums about him as well.
When you start looking around for mma fights, check out mma forums (such as this) and ask people who have experience to point you in the right direction.
You lucked out this time, and found out he was a fraud ahead of time. Others aren't so lucky and end up in the cage with a veteran mma fighter for their first opponent (like I did).
a quick google search came up with the following:
http://www.txmma.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9943&view=previous
He also has a few threads on other forums about him as well.
When you start looking around for mma fights, check out mma forums (such as this) and ask people who have experience to point you in the right direction.
You lucked out this time, and found out he was a fraud ahead of time. Others aren't so lucky and end up in the cage with a veteran mma fighter for their first opponent (like I did).
Si-Je I'm so sorry, as Skpotamus says though though far better to have found out now. That's a good website he posted up though so with a bit of luck you'll find a fight. There will I'm sure be promoters on there looking for fighters, you can check them out and find the right one.
Anyway I'm off to the post office! things will work out I'm sure.
Anyway I'm off to the post office! things will work out I'm sure.
