Brit Boy Scouts cant have pocket knives

[Tez3]

Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans. We tend not to understand why other people would be quick to give them up to government, yet are slowly doing the same thing themselves.

Americans see Brits as cousins and see things like, "if it happens over there, how long until it happens here?" Also, you must understand that Americans distrust of Government comes from our ancestors experience with the english Government.

If you think the Americans have trust issues with the English government you should look at the Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Irish, East Anglians, Northumbrians, Cumbrians...well basically anyone who lives outside London. A good description would actually be the "London Government". Many people even now see London as the seat of all our political problems, I know they do up here in the north of England, there is still a big north/south divide here despite what people may say to the contrary.

I don't think we are giving up our rights to government, you must remember we are subjects not citizens as you are. I think, although it may not look like it or even feel like it we have actually more rights at this point in time that we've ever had, the EU is to thank for much of that I believe though it's open to argument. If you look at the rights we had at the same time as you were making your bid for independance you'll find we had fewer than you then. After you gained your independance from London we still had few rights while you were drawing up your constitution we had no say at all in anything and most of the UK was suffering badly. Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath. Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.

This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either, crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged. I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!



Our whole system of government with us being a monarchy is different from your way, if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country. The way things are here are designed to work here not in a bigger country who's whole political system and way of governing is different so it would be better for people who look at us and want to copy the way we do things to remember that.

 

[Xinglu]

If you think the Americans have trust issues with the English government you should look at the Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Irish, East Anglians, Northumbrians, Cumbrians...well basically anyone who lives outside London. A good description would actually be the "London Government". Many people even now see London as the seat of all our political problems, I know they do up here in the north of England, there is still a big north/south divide here despite what people may say to the contrary.

I don't think we are giving up our rights to government, you must remember we are subjects not citizens as you are. I think, although it may not look like it or even feel like it we have actually more rights at this point in time that we've ever had, the EU is to thank for much of that I believe though it's open to argument. If you look at the rights we had at the same time as you were making your bid for independance you'll find we had fewer than you then. After you gained your independance from London we still had few rights while you were drawing up your constitution we had no say at all in anything and most of the UK was suffering badly. Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath. Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.

This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either, crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged. I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!



Our whole system of government with us being a monarchy is different from your way, if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country. The way things are here are designed to work here not in a bigger country who's whole political system and way of governing is different so it would be better for people who look at us and want to copy the way we do things to remember that.

America was very close to becoming a monarchy, they tried to crown George Washington after all. Thankfully, he declined and pushed America as a Republic. Unfortunately we are coming closer to becoming an oligarchy every year.

As I said, these unalienable rights that Americans fixate on, are believed to be endowed to every human being by their "creator," regardless of weather they are subject or citizens.

I've never heard the term London Government - but I think it might capture well the picture you have painted for me

 

[lklawson]

Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans.

Which is why we see so much in the news about the deprivations, mass murders, and interment camps in the Sudan... Oh, wait...

While it is true that we, as a culture, want to extend our desire for Liberty (at least what we think of as Liberty) to the rest of the world, we are, in fact, far more sensitive to what happens in some places than in others. GB is one of those places. We have a common history and a co-mingled origin. We still tell tales of King Arther and watch movies of Robin Hood. Other places, like the Sudan I mentioned above, we are more interested in as an academic effort. But GB... Well, things that happen there we are concerned (or hopeful, depending) might happen HERE. And it's BECAUSE of our shared culture. No one worried about a gun ban happening in the U.S. when similar bans happened in African nations. But when they happened in Australia and GB, we here in the U.S. (rightly so) went poo-flinging nuts. It's because, again, of our shared culture.

The rest of your statements, I agree with.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath.

Scotland was still deeply intertwined with the Economics of England in general. Individuals controlling assets important to Scotland spanned both nations in a way not entirely dissimilar to modern multi-nationals. Political independence mixed with economic dependence often leads to unhappy results.

Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.

Ireland has had any number of famines. They seem cursed. The most famous, the "Great Potato Famine," wasn't so much a famine at all as a complete collapse of the ONLY crop that was available to the farmers. Absentee Landlords and other well connected and wealthy in the nation had an extremely strong export of food crops going on the whole time. During the Potato Famine, Ireland actually produced enough food to feed the indigents, and then some. But it all went "offshore," usually to England. When their food crops failed (Potatoes), the local farmers simply couldn't sustain themselves and meet their financial obligations to the Landlords.

It was a very sad, yet fascinating period of Irish history and one of the major drivers for numerous changes, not only in Ireland but in the U.S. as well. The "Irish Diaspora" caused by this famine and displacement moved Irish to many places in both South and North America.

This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either,

Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" documents some very interesting history. IMS, one traveler (French I think) commented how every farmer has a Quaterstaff or other weapon propped in the corner of his field as he works, that crime was low in comparison with mainland Europe, and no one in his right mind would try to invade England because armed peasants would be popping out of the woodwork.

crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged.

I've seen studies supporting both sides of the argument. Let's just say that this conclusion is in contention.

I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!

The Good Old Days are always good and Today always sucks. Particularly in regard to "The Youth of Today."

I'm always reminded of one commentator who went on a tirade about how "the youth of today" were rude, disrespectful, disobedient gluttons.

Wait for it....

...

...

...

...Plato.

if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country.

YOU get that. But a lot of our, ahem, "Leaders" don't. Which is part of our concern. We don't want you guys to do things which large segments of our society here will want to try to emulate. Because they're stupid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

The armed peasants thing would have been a very long time ago and they would have been armed on the behest of their lords so they could fight for their lords. Quarterstaffs are medieval weapon, long outdated though there's a connection to this thread as the early Boy Scouts carried them until about the time of the Great Depression.

The idea of England as a peaceful place is a myth with wars, uprisings, civil wars, outlaws and crime being rife right through to at least the start of the 20th century.

I'm not sure that the arguments that crime was or wasn't rife is in contention tbh, I grew up in the fifties and sixties in Scotland and trust me crime there was certainly rife! My father was born in the 1920s and he recounts that violence and crime was probably even worse then. glasgow was certainly a fearsome place as was the East End of London.

It's often pointed out that until the end of the First World War anyone could own a gun in the UK, which by law was right but by economics was wrong. Just because people could own guns didn't mean to say they could afford to. The gun laws that came in after the first world war had nothing to do with crime and everything to do with a fear of Bolsheviks and unemployed soldiers with left over guns from the war. The government feared revolution as did many of the people so the gun laws were acceptable.

Gun and knife laws are still acceptable here, we've had campaigns asking for the banning of them, it's not a one sided move by the government. When this false report appeared that the Scouts wouldn't carry knives there was little or no outrage. It simply hasn't the political interest that it has in America.

The general public here don't appear to want to be armed, many say they don't want the police armed either though armed response units are acceptable. If thats how they see it it's hard to imagine how you are going to persuade them to carry guns 'for their own good'. I think many pro gun people in America can't imagine not being without guns therefore think we are being put down by the government and conversely the anti gun lobby want to use us as a reason for disarming as we don't seem to need them but neither argument holds water.

The people here aren't easily led by the nose, witness the poll tax riots. If we feel strongly about something the people rise and it gets nasty, the truth is that the people as a whole simply don't feel strongly about being armed with guns or knives. Of course there's individuals who do but there's no public outcry.

 

[Tez3]

Can I point out too that the Scouts tend not to carry penknives anyway, they have proper knives a la Crocodile Dundee!

Bear Grylls is the Chief Scout for crying out loud, do you think he'd ban knives lol! Personally I would have chosen Ray Mears but Bear is more telegenic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/may/17/bear-grylls-chief-scout

Scouts here wear modern smart uniforms so why people think they still wear clothes from 1900 I've no idea!

http://www.scout-and-guide-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Scout_Uniforms.html

Just one of the badges available for the young people to earn...Master at Arms.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/badges/scout-activity-maatar.htm

 

[lklawson]

The armed peasants thing would have been a very long time ago

Obviously.

and they would have been armed on the behest of their lords so they could fight for their lords.

Not sure that's exactly true. There seems to have been a "culture" of non-Noble martial arts in England. It is true that the Nobility and the Monarchy took advantage of that and encouraged it. The Monarchy commissioned the Maisters of Defense, a sort of "Guild" for martial arts, which apparently catered to a predominately Commoner clientele. Then there's the famous archery proclamation (my google search says it was 1363 but may have been 1511).

Quarterstaffs are medieval weapon, long outdated though there's a connection to this thread as the early Boy Scouts carried them until about the time of the Great Depression.

And learned to fight with them http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/boy-scouts-master-at-arms-badge/2487450

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

Obviously.

Not sure that's exactly true. There seems to have been a "culture" of non-Noble martial arts in England. It is true that the Nobility and the Monarchy took advantage of that and encouraged it. The Monarchy commissioned the Maisters of Defense, a sort of "Guild" for martial arts, which apparently catered to a predominately Commoner clientele. Then there's the famous archery proclamation (my google search says it was 1363 but may have been 1511).

And learned to fight with them http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/boy-scouts-master-at-arms-badge/2487450

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

When you say monarchy you'll have to say who's lol.
As it is it was Henry the Eighth of England that chartered the Maisters first in 1540, giving the Guild the monopoly on teaching "all the weapons of war a gentleman should know". The charter was renewed by Edward VI again of England but not by subsequent kings or queens. The guild was like all guilds a money making business. If you can get your hands on the Sloane manuscript thats in the British Museum, it gives a lot of comtempory details of the guild. Commoners unless very rich wouldn't have been able to afford to pay for lessons with the guild though. Being a Richard the Third fan though I have no time for the Tudors lol!

Just up the road from me is where the worlds oldest sporting competition is held, it's just had it's 301st AGM, it's the Scorton Archery competition.
http://www.scortonarrow.com/

 

[elder999]

Just up the road from me is where the worlds oldest sporting competition is held, it's just had it's 301st AGM, it's the Scorton Archery competition.
http://www.scortonarrow.com/

Sorry, but I think the Kirkpinar Festival ( Turkish Oil Wrestling) has been held since 1352, making it somewhat older than the Silver Arrow.....at least, that's what the Guiness Book says (though I think their date is 1460, IIRC)

 

[Tez3]

Sorry, but I think the Kirkpinar Festival ( Turkish Oil Wrestling) has been held since 1352, making it somewhat older than the Silver Arrow.....at least, that's what the Guiness Book says (though I think their date is 1460, IIRC)

Wrestling greased up isn't a competition it's a pleasure!!!


You'll have to take the date up with t'committee (it's Yorkshire, thats how they speak tha knows)

 

[lklawson]

When you say monarchy you'll have to say who's lol.

<snork> hahaha

Good point.

The guild was like all guilds a money making business. [snip]Commoners unless very rich wouldn't have been able to afford to pay for lessons with the guild though.

That's interesting. The reprint that I read had stipulations included for people of humble means, particularly ways to Play the Prize on the cheap if you were poor.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Langenschwert]

While it is true that we, as a culture, want to extend our desire for Liberty (at least what we think of as Liberty) to the rest of the world, we are, in fact, far more sensitive to what happens in some places than in others. GB is one of those places. We have a common history and a co-mingled origin.

Another thing is that Canadians and Americans are very concerned with freedom in Europe due to the fact that it was bought in part with the blood of our ancestors. Thousands of N. American troops died in WWII... 45,500 Canadians and 416,800 Americans. In my case, my father was Dutch, and his hometown was liberated by Canadians. He would have certainly starved to death had the Canadians not come. My father owes his very life to the North American "gun culture", and so do I, and so do many Europeans living today. Kids who grew up shooting rabbits and coyotes made good riflemen in the Canadian military, and I'm thankful for that! I wouldn't be here otherwise.

So as a Canadian whose parents were both born in Europe, it galls me that my relatives (whose democracy was created in part due to the sacrifices of Canadians) seem so eager to throw away the liberties that previous generations sacrificed everything to give them.

Remember:

Rome remained free for four hundred years and Sparta eight hundred, although their citizens were armed all that time; but many other states that have been disarmed have lost their liberties in less than forty years. ~ Nicolo Machiavelli

The state must fear the people. I remember that dumbfounded, I had a discussion with a German gentleman who said that one should trust the State, and hence there was no need for a citizen to protect himself from it by force of arms. If anyone should know better, you'd think it would be him!

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Blindside]

Remember:

Rome remained free for four hundred years and Sparta eight hundred, although their citizens were armed all that time; but many other states that have been disarmed have lost their liberties in less than forty years. ~ Nicolo Machiavelli

Yikes, citing Sparta as an example of how armed Citizens protect the "freedom" is somewhat.... problematic. The Spartan citizens might have been "free," the large slave society under them might have had other ideas. There may be a dual lesson there, one about armed citizens protecting the nation and armed members of society protecting the rights of the individual.

 

[arnisador]

The Spartan citizens were also effectively drafted at a young age...

 

[Tez3]

The Spartan citizens were also effectively drafted at a young age...

among other things!

 

[lklawson]

Yikes, citing Sparta as an example of how armed Citizens protect the "freedom" is somewhat.... problematic. The Spartan citizens might have been "free," the large slave society under them might have had other ideas. There may be a dual lesson there, one about armed citizens protecting the nation and armed members of society protecting the rights of the individual.

It was a quote by Machiavelli who lived nearly 500 years ago (half a millennium!). I think it's fair to say that their knowledge of the details of Spartan culture wasn't quite what ours is today.

Take it for what it's worth, OK.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

among other things!

It's worse than that. If the universe were Just the Spartans would have been wiped off the face of the planet while they were still a twinkle in the eye of Lycurgus.

BTW, with all this talk lately of "reform" one should remember that Lycurgus was a social reformer.

Not all "reform" is good and the overwhelmingly positive connotation to the word is strictly modern.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Blindside]

It was a quote by Machiavelli who lived nearly 500 years ago (half a millennium!). I think it's fair to say that their knowledge of the details of Spartan culture wasn't quite what ours is today.

Take it for what it's worth, OK.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Sure, I'm not questioning Machiavelli's knowledge, but rather that of the wisdom of using that quote as illustrative of a current situation, there are many, far better and accurate quotes that could support the same argument.

 

[shesulsa]

My hasn't this thread taken its twists and turns. LOL

 

[arnisador]

among other things!

Eh, I thought about pointing that out but decided against it...but yeah, they were drafted into military "and other" activities by the older men.