Xinglu
Black Belt
the BSA has the Venture Scouting which is Co-ed and from 14 - 21, they also have Varsity Scouting which is 14-17 (up to 18th b-day) and is not co-ed. Those would be your high adventure groups.
Brit Boy Scouts cant have pocket knives
- Thread starter Archangel M
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the BSA has the Venture Scouting which is Co-ed and from 14 - 21, they also have Varsity Scouting which is 14-17 (up to 18th b-day) and is not co-ed. Those would be your high adventure groups.
Apparently they split the Varsity/Venture Scouting off from the Explorers in '98, it used to be one big program. My last year in Explorers was '90.
Xinglu
Black Belt
Varsity Scouting has been around since the 70's and part of the BSA since 1984 and was never a subset or part of the Explorers program.
The subject of knives and guns seems to get peoples teeth on edge and arguments start, it's past experience that makes me very defensive on here when posters go on about these subjects in the UK.
I don't know either why people think Europe is soft on weapons either, they certainly aren't. They may have a different attitude towards guns to Americans but then everyone has frankly. I think your country is the only one where guns/arms are a political issue, not saying thats good or bad but it's different from us. Thats what I mean by you looking at this from an American perspective not ours.
The British Empire is long gone and was never a good idea in the first place so you bash that away as much as you like, I was getting annoyed specifically because and I'm taking a deep breath here.......I don't think people when they post sometimes realise exactly how hurtful some of their comments are. "And the Brits call the French sissy's?" for example? thanks for that. Look at some of the posts and imagine that it's directed at you and your country specifically. A lot of the posts come over as condescending.
There really is only one Scouting Association here in this country that's the one strarted by B-P, the others are tiny splinter groups started by people disaffected with the main group. British citizens who join Scouting and Guiding are expected to swear allegiance to the Queen, non British citizens make the promise pertaining to their country.
No, British items shouldn't be out of the discussing but how about making it less confrontional to start with, instead of "Boy Scouts have knives banned and I think they're stupid" how about, I read this "so what do the Brits think about it" and take it as a discussion from there?
We have history against us here too, years of Americans telling us that what they do is better, bigger and we should do it your way, you may think I have my knickers in a twist but you really, really don't understand that being criticised by Americans over even the slightest thing sets us off. I know it's not arrogance on your part though it often comes across as that, I know you do really mean well but talking to people here it's the one thing that will unite Europeans, Asians,Anzacs etc, thats being told by Americans that the way they do things is best. I know you think it is and I know you'd like us all to have good things but it really gets us going when you do that. Last year we had some American tourists in Richmond our local town, the market place in the middle is cobblestoned, the Americans came in to see the castle and they told the lady who works there that really and this was for our own good we should really take them up and modernise it with a proper road surface. We all laughed at that one, fondly I might add, but giving advice all round the world gets you in trouble where it's not taken as friendly.
I know you say you should criticise all bad laws wherever they are but why? Bad laws in other's countries is not something Brits or Europeans lose any sleep over why do Americans feel they have to do this? I'm sure you have bad laws but no Brit or European here has ever felt any need to post up about them, it's not just that it seems bad manners to post it's also nothing to do with us.
If someone tells us the American scouts are banning knives we'd look at you politely and shrug, it's nothing to do with us what you do. Do you see the difference in our attitude to yours? this is why it feels as if you are attacking us, we don't think what goes on here is anything to do with you. It's like asking your neighbour how much he gets paid and how often he and his wife make love, you just don't go there. Saying you think of us as cousins and are just concerned makes it worse in our eyes, it's the Americans doing the big puppy thing again! You're going to get British reserve coming back at you because you've hurt their feelings but they aren't going to say. Other countries aren't so up tight, this is why there is so much hostility towards America that really needn't be there.
I think it's a bigger probem really than just how we perceive each other on here, it affects how Americans are seen in the wider world. I know Americans get hurt and bewildered when they are attacked by other countries because all they are trying to do is help, it's a sort of missionary complex lol! only the natives don't want to be converted.
I think while we have a lot of things in common our attitudes to each other and what is each countries business is vastly different. Thats why I (and my colleagues at work with whom I discussed this) see what has been posted as an attack and you see it as an open issue free to all to criticise. It's quite a wide gap of perception to be closed.
I don't know either why people think Europe is soft on weapons either, they certainly aren't. They may have a different attitude towards guns to Americans but then everyone has frankly. I think your country is the only one where guns/arms are a political issue, not saying thats good or bad but it's different from us. Thats what I mean by you looking at this from an American perspective not ours.
The British Empire is long gone and was never a good idea in the first place so you bash that away as much as you like, I was getting annoyed specifically because and I'm taking a deep breath here.......I don't think people when they post sometimes realise exactly how hurtful some of their comments are. "And the Brits call the French sissy's?" for example? thanks for that. Look at some of the posts and imagine that it's directed at you and your country specifically. A lot of the posts come over as condescending.
There really is only one Scouting Association here in this country that's the one strarted by B-P, the others are tiny splinter groups started by people disaffected with the main group. British citizens who join Scouting and Guiding are expected to swear allegiance to the Queen, non British citizens make the promise pertaining to their country.
No, British items shouldn't be out of the discussing but how about making it less confrontional to start with, instead of "Boy Scouts have knives banned and I think they're stupid" how about, I read this "so what do the Brits think about it" and take it as a discussion from there?
We have history against us here too, years of Americans telling us that what they do is better, bigger and we should do it your way, you may think I have my knickers in a twist but you really, really don't understand that being criticised by Americans over even the slightest thing sets us off. I know it's not arrogance on your part though it often comes across as that, I know you do really mean well but talking to people here it's the one thing that will unite Europeans, Asians,Anzacs etc, thats being told by Americans that the way they do things is best. I know you think it is and I know you'd like us all to have good things but it really gets us going when you do that. Last year we had some American tourists in Richmond our local town, the market place in the middle is cobblestoned, the Americans came in to see the castle and they told the lady who works there that really and this was for our own good we should really take them up and modernise it with a proper road surface. We all laughed at that one, fondly I might add, but giving advice all round the world gets you in trouble where it's not taken as friendly.
I know you say you should criticise all bad laws wherever they are but why? Bad laws in other's countries is not something Brits or Europeans lose any sleep over why do Americans feel they have to do this? I'm sure you have bad laws but no Brit or European here has ever felt any need to post up about them, it's not just that it seems bad manners to post it's also nothing to do with us.
If someone tells us the American scouts are banning knives we'd look at you politely and shrug, it's nothing to do with us what you do. Do you see the difference in our attitude to yours? this is why it feels as if you are attacking us, we don't think what goes on here is anything to do with you. It's like asking your neighbour how much he gets paid and how often he and his wife make love, you just don't go there. Saying you think of us as cousins and are just concerned makes it worse in our eyes, it's the Americans doing the big puppy thing again! You're going to get British reserve coming back at you because you've hurt their feelings but they aren't going to say. Other countries aren't so up tight, this is why there is so much hostility towards America that really needn't be there.
I think it's a bigger probem really than just how we perceive each other on here, it affects how Americans are seen in the wider world. I know Americans get hurt and bewildered when they are attacked by other countries because all they are trying to do is help, it's a sort of missionary complex lol! only the natives don't want to be converted.
I think while we have a lot of things in common our attitudes to each other and what is each countries business is vastly different. Thats why I (and my colleagues at work with whom I discussed this) see what has been posted as an attack and you see it as an open issue free to all to criticise. It's quite a wide gap of perception to be closed.
opcorn::lurk:
Nice one! xx
Xinglu
Black Belt
Just for the record I don't think that the way we Americans do things are any better. Half the time we have our heads up our collective bums. Having lived overseas and in europe for 6 years, I learned some things. We Americans tend to be incredibly myopic and inconsiderate when it comes to other cultures then flip out if someone treats us the same way.
With that said it really grinds my gears when brits call us arrogant. It is like the pot calling the kettle black. The British are just as opinionated as Americans, just as dogmatic, and twice as condescending!
I greatly enjoy the UK, I love the people, but don't pretend like Brits are victims of American arrogance. Both sides are arrogant. Both are pompous. Both think their nation is more important than everyone else's, and both produce great people! So why the heck is there always a UK vs USA sentiment going? Seems pointless, myopic, and jingoistic to me.
On to topic it was the Brits that brought us the Scouts! Thank you for that and thank you for the Beetles. But please keep the blood pudding and pass the bangers and mash my way please! :boing2:
With that said it really grinds my gears when brits call us arrogant. It is like the pot calling the kettle black. The British are just as opinionated as Americans, just as dogmatic, and twice as condescending!
I greatly enjoy the UK, I love the people, but don't pretend like Brits are victims of American arrogance. Both sides are arrogant. Both are pompous. Both think their nation is more important than everyone else's, and both produce great people! So why the heck is there always a UK vs USA sentiment going? Seems pointless, myopic, and jingoistic to me.
On to topic it was the Brits that brought us the Scouts! Thank you for that and thank you for the Beetles. But please keep the blood pudding and pass the bangers and mash my way please! :boing2:
Actually I just want to start a threat making fun of British desert names, but I'm afraid I'd get my Dr. Who fan club membership revoked so I won't. But Spotted Dick just makes me giggle. :wavey:
OP
Archangel M
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Wow Tez that was a lot of typing for "I can criticize you but you cant criticize me".
lklawson
Grandmaster
OP
Archangel M
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PS-And there are WORLDS of difference between me "criticizing" your countries knife laws and us attempting to DO SOMETHING about it. Do as you wish..who here is saying anything about trying to influence your laws?
...and stretching a criticizing opinion into "dislike" of your country is unfair as well. For all the friction we have no more loyal ally (well..Canada has been pretty cool too ).
...and stretching a criticizing opinion into "dislike" of your country is unfair as well. For all the friction we have no more loyal ally (well..Canada has been pretty cool too
).
Xinglu
Black Belt
Why do you have to twist what I say? I was explaining why we thought we were being criticised when we weren't and how we see things differently, I really do wish you'd actually read what I write instead of thinking you know what I'm talking about.
Desert names? We don't have any deserts until you mean Slough.
I didn't say Americans were arrogant I said sometimes what they say comes over as that when you actually are meaning to be helpful.
The British don't tend to be arrogant as they just know they are right and the natives are wrong, they don't try to tell people what to do they just take over the country, colonise it and make everyone do it their way, though that stopped a few years ago.
for Archangels benefit I will summerise my points.....
We look at things differently there's no doubt, we tend to be far more private in our own lives as well as our nations' lives so we don't understand why there's so much interest in our laws, government etc so we take discussion of that especially when people don't like what we do as criticism of us and we react badly.
We don't understand why you are bothered by our laws, we think it's none of your business. We don't discuss your laws or any other countries either etc, to be honest we aren't interested, it's not our country. it doesn't make sense that you say you are just anti stupid etc when to us it's often not stupid or to us things are acceptable.
the bottoma line is that we don't understand people taking an interest in 'our stuff' and there's little you can say to make us understand that you do. As I said it's a cultural difference. All the Americans I've ever met are far more open on first acquaintance than any Brit, they are happy discussing with you the most personal things a Brit would take twenty years of knowing someone before even thinking they might mention it, we are a much more closed society, far more private and less open to talking about things. Again this leads us to be defensive when people question our laws, way of life etc. I'm not saying it's good or bad just trying to explain why we get upset at posts like this one and others.
I post back in public by the way, I've never complained to mods etc about any post dealing with the UK, just so's you know I don't whinge behind people's backs. I attack face on lol.
Shana Tova.
I didn't say Americans were arrogant I said sometimes what they say comes over as that when you actually are meaning to be helpful.
The British don't tend to be arrogant as they just know they are right and the natives are wrong, they don't try to tell people what to do they just take over the country, colonise it and make everyone do it their way, though that stopped a few years ago.
for Archangels benefit I will summerise my points.....
We look at things differently there's no doubt, we tend to be far more private in our own lives as well as our nations' lives so we don't understand why there's so much interest in our laws, government etc so we take discussion of that especially when people don't like what we do as criticism of us and we react badly.
We don't understand why you are bothered by our laws, we think it's none of your business. We don't discuss your laws or any other countries either etc, to be honest we aren't interested, it's not our country. it doesn't make sense that you say you are just anti stupid etc when to us it's often not stupid or to us things are acceptable.
the bottoma line is that we don't understand people taking an interest in 'our stuff' and there's little you can say to make us understand that you do. As I said it's a cultural difference. All the Americans I've ever met are far more open on first acquaintance than any Brit, they are happy discussing with you the most personal things a Brit would take twenty years of knowing someone before even thinking they might mention it, we are a much more closed society, far more private and less open to talking about things. Again this leads us to be defensive when people question our laws, way of life etc. I'm not saying it's good or bad just trying to explain why we get upset at posts like this one and others.
I post back in public by the way, I've never complained to mods etc about any post dealing with the UK, just so's you know I don't whinge behind people's backs. I attack face on lol.
Shana Tova.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
...and yet, strangely, men and boys in short pants are still sent out into the wilderness with nary a thought.
If I may respond with the same desire for clarity as you:
Those of us interested in travel, the global human condition and world-wide ability to protect oneself are interested in laws in other countries along these lines. I rather think it could be a 'brotherhood' kind of thing ... if only it were *allowed* to be. Too bad you think it's none of our business ... I'm sure, should England require the aid of the US in wartime that you'd be glad to make many things our business.
Those of us interested in travel, the global human condition and world-wide ability to protect oneself are interested in laws in other countries along these lines. I rather think it could be a 'brotherhood' kind of thing ... if only it were *allowed* to be. Too bad you think it's none of our business ... I'm sure, should England require the aid of the US in wartime that you'd be glad to make many things our business.
With all due respect to culture, it does not preclude polite conversation and personal opinion and concern for general welfare from being discussed.
I understand that an intimate part of your culture is to play things quite close to the vest. However, one simply must expect for public policy to be discussed publicly. :idunno:
Ok.
I never said it was right or even healthy I was just explaining that's how it's seen here.
You must admit too that the tone of some...not all..posts here were mocking.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
"Unless there is likely to be a need for one"...
Will billy being a scout and all I dont think there are any uses for a knife so just leave it at home...
Its assinine to assume anything...
The Scout Association did say you know that the newspaper reports were wrong and they haven't said anything about banning knives etc.
Xinglu
Black Belt
Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans. We tend not to understand why other people would be quick to give them up to government, yet are slowly doing the same thing themselves.
Americans see Brits as cousins and see things like, "if it happens over there, how long until it happens here?" Also, you must understand that Americans distrust of Government comes from our ancestors experience with the english Government.
Americans see Brits as cousins and see things like, "if it happens over there, how long until it happens here?" Also, you must understand that Americans distrust of Government comes from our ancestors experience with the english Government.
