Bowing=Brain wash

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

The point of view many times if not always determines the meaning and value of an action.

This is very true... My bow may be interpreted by someone else in a completely incorrect manner... And I think the point remains that while its meaning to them may be different from its meaning to me, the only way that is fixed is by educated one's self rather than relying on what we think we know...

Open your mind to allow for others to be different. Particularly those that are different from you.

Sure. Let everyone be themselves. Individual expression is to be protected and held inviolate. However, an issue that bears discussion would be about the tolerance of the beliefs of others as opposed to the adherence to your own beliefs as gospel...

Yet, if you are approaching someone to have them teach you, then you should respect their ways and methods.

And this says it all... If the children in that court case, their father and their mother, and Judo-kid as well, all feel that participation in an endeavor that includes objectionable content is against their beliefs in some fashion, then they should endeavor not to participate! If bowing is something they don't believe in, fine. Don't do asian martial arts. Do something else. But jumping in, saying that they want to do only this part or that part of a particular activity, and expecting all other participants to cater to their wishes and subordinate their own beliefs in order to suit the others, is arrogant in the extreme.

Judo, and all other Japanese martial arts, as well as most other martial arts that have origins in the far east, include bowing. Don't want to bow, find a new art. Just that simple...

Or bow.

Two choices, both are theirs... I bow, and I don't sweat the little stuff (once I know why it is there and what it is for...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

a sign of respect and courtesy. i bow to the flags (korean and american) to show respect for where my art comes from and the country i practice it in.

i bow when entering and leaving the mat to show respect for those that have come before me.

i bow to members of my class as a sign of martial respect.

i dont believe that it is lowering yourself. my instructors also bow to me (sometimes first). it is a simple gesture and tradition. please dont read and analyize it to the extent that you are feeling looked down upon.

then again if you are feeling this way, perhaps you need to look inside yourself for the true answer and stop blaming traditions.

 

[sweeper]

well personaly I don't think it should be nessisaray to bow in competition, you will get treated like $%^& for it by the judges but I don't see why bowing should be a part of competition, I don;t see tournaments as a part of the art realy but rather a paralel sport. And that particular school is a sport school. The coach has alot of reasons for not bowing, he has alot of things against more traditional schools and he is very knowledgeable in judo and is a good teacher.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by sweeper

well personaly I don't think it should be nessisaray to bow in competition, you will get treated like $%^& for it by the judges

How so? I have judged and been judged, and have never been discriminated against for not bowing... I have deducted points from people that didn't bow, however...

but I don't see why bowing should be a part of competition, I don;t see tournaments as a part of the art realy but rather a paralel sport.

A parallel sport based on...? On the arts that compete in the sport! So, if it is part and parcel of the base traditions, then it should also have a place in the competition. Competition isn't just about who can score more points, or who does their forms the flashiest... It is also very much about how you go about presenting yourself and how you represent what you do. Doing so in a cocky, arrogant, insulting manner should be penalized, as it goes against one of the most well known tenets of martial training - developing one's character.

And that particular school is a sport school.

And Judo is a sport art. Does that somehow invalidate all the things that are considered to be adjunctive training goals of its practice? Judo was created, not in order to create a combat art capable of slaughtering one's foes, but to preserve the character development that is capable only through budo training... Part of that character development is humility.

The coach has alot of reasons for not bowing,

None of which have a) been described, or b) have any real bearing on the issue at hand... If he practices Judo, then he bows. If he teaches Judo, then he can take bowing out of his curriculum - until it is competition time.

His contention that they are religiously offensive makes as much sense as saying that God has a restriction against shaking hands... And given, as I stated previously, that his wife appears to be of Japanese descent, his further contention that bowing is offensive makes me question the validity of his alleged feelings on this issue - I am more inclined to believe he is doing this to make a name for himself, to claim his "fifteen minutes" as it were.

he has alot of things against more traditional schools

Like what? Just curious... All I have heard is what was posted in the news article.

and he is very knowledgeable in judo and is a good teacher.

I don't believe any of this was disputed.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[sweeper]

first, my previous post wasn't intended to be a responce to anything just to add what little I know about the instructor and gym to the discusion so not all of what I said has any bearing on the discusion. Additionaly I did not clarify what I meant by sport, I was reffering to it being olympic style judo.

How so? I have judged and been judged, and have never been discriminated against for not bowing... I have deducted points from people that didn't bow, however...[/qoute]
It's just my observation, the coach isn't liked and neither are his students all kinds of "mistakes" happen in tournaments they go to and they only seem to happen to them. Since most of the competitions are video taped it's pritty obvious that the judges side against them (unfairly). For example not calling a pin (either for or against) a fighter after the given amount of time you can be on the ground elapses, not giving a point for a take down, mismatching weight classes in match ups, etc..

A parallel sport based on...? On the arts that compete in the sport! So, if it is part and parcel of the base traditions, then it should also have a place in the competition. Competition isn't just about who can score more points, or who does their forms the flashiest... It is also very much about how you go about presenting yourself and how you represent what you do. Doing so in a cocky, arrogant, insulting manner should be penalized, as it goes against one of the most well known tenets of martial training - developing one's character.

It is a parallel sport but I would not say olympic judo is anything more than a sport. There are diffrent mentalities between sports and MA, in my opinion olympic judo is a sport and not a martial art.

And Judo is a sport art. Does that somehow invalidate all the things that are considered to be adjunctive training goals of its practice? Judo was created, not in order to create a combat art capable of slaughtering one's foes, but to preserve the character development that is capable only through budo training... Part of that character development is humility.[/qoute]
I diasagree in part, Kano gave judo a sport flavor, it was something he thought could be usefull in teaching from what I understand, but it was still a martial art, it was still effective though some techniques were altered to prevemt serious harm in practice, it did have all those qualities of character development that you spoke of. But olympic judo is not judo the martial art, it is a sport, it is a game where there are a set of rules in wich you attempt to optimise your chances of winning, the other aspects take a back seet role to the competition, that isn't to say people are dis honorable but rather their goal is to win where as I don't think there is such a simple goal in most martial arts study. It is for these reasons I see olympic judo and judo as MA as two seperate things.

None of which have a) been described, or b) have any real bearing on the issue at hand... If he practices Judo, then he bows. If he teaches Judo, then he can take bowing out of his curriculum - until it is competition time.

His contention that they are religiously offensive makes as much sense as saying that God has a restriction against shaking hands... And given, as I stated previously, that his wife appears to be of Japanese descent, his further contention that bowing is offensive makes me question the validity of his alleged feelings on this issue - I am more inclined to believe he is doing this to make a name for himself, to claim his "fifteen minutes" as it were.

His wife and his step children are japanese I don't agree with the religion thing either.. As for other reasons, I don't train with him anymore and I think judo kid would be better suited t explain, I relay don't want to speak for another person in this case. I never said it bearing on the issue as hand.

Like what? Just curious... All I have heard is what was posted in the news article.

He doesn't seem to like some "older" training methods (at leaste what I preseve as older training methods) basicly he doesn't like the way some schools teach. again I havn't been there for a wial so I realy don't want to go into specifics.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by fist of fury

UFC/MMA= brainwashing

Alot people are brainwashed by different things.

Hey! MMA is the NickName for my school! Mountaineer Martial Arts! Hmph! I do not brain wash people!:rofl:

 

[Seig]

In my studio, I usually do not use the term bow. I call it showing courtesy. As several have pointed it out, it shows respect, it also shows trust.:asian:

 

[J-kid]

Err tryed [post] a three part thing on brain washing that a photo copyed in was way way to big so i gotta get a web [page and then put the link here lots of work ahead.]. Hope you injoy.
Your Friend Judo-Kid

 

[Bod]

Judo-kid he say:

say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him.

Then don't slap him, bow at him and he'll bow back.

If you don't bow, especially in Judo, then you aren't training or playing, you are fighting. It is that sort of sport.

Judo is a sport and it is arguably only a sport. Just like boxing, totally useless in self defence unless you are a doorman, in law-enforcement or the armed forces.

But even if Judo is no good for self-defence (yeah, right!) then it doesn't bother me, because everybody at my dojo does it for the fun of it. Which is why we don't call each other idiots, slap each other, because we are having fun.

 

[J-kid]

I stated that my friend gets punked plan and simple . Just because he lets people walk all over him.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Ok, I'll jump in on this too.

Just because someone doesn't beat the pulp out of you for slapping him or "letting people walk all over him" doesn't mean he's brainwashed or that he's an idiot. It means he's growing up and learning that you don't solve problems by fighting everyone. He's learning respect for other people and their opinions; he's showing some humility.

Learning the martial arts doesn't mean you go out and crack skulls. In case you haven't figured it out yet, it's about learning how to control yourself. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

By the way, most (if not all) oriental countries use the bow in much the same way we use a handshake.

WhiteBirch

 

[tonbo]

You mean learning MA really *isn't* about just kicking a** and taking names? So *that's* what I've been doing wrong.....

J/K.

Not only do the Japanese use the bow like we use a handshake, but, from what I understand, they also have varying levels of bow, depending on the formality of the situation. To show more respect, or greater deference, you bow lower.

I could be wrong on that, but I could swear that I read this somewhere.

Anyway, a lot of good points were made here in the forum on this issue. I would add in the additional comment that it never hurts to show a little respect to those you interact with. If they choose not to accept or live up to that respect, well, that's THEIR problem. I always start off with assuming that someone deserves respect, and figure that if they don't deserve the respect, they will prove it through their actions.

Just one way of doing things.....

Peace--

 

[Eraser]

Hey there..
Tonbo.. i believe your right with level of the bow showing different levels of respect..
IN our MA.. we don't even look at the person we are bowing to (some MA have you look at the person even as you are bowing)
We give complete trust and respect to the person we are bowing to.. but that's just at my school.. I can be different from MA to MA..

that's all..

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by tonbo

Not only do the Japanese use the bow like we use a handshake, but, from what I understand, they also have varying levels of bow, depending on the formality of the situation. To show more respect, or greater deference, you bow lower.

There are different bows for different occasions, standing bows, seated bows, kneeling bows... And yet again, very few of them have any religious connotation.

Anyway, a lot of good points were made here in the forum on this issue. I would add in the additional comment that it never hurts to show a little respect to those you interact with. If they choose not to accept or live up to that respect, well, that's THEIR problem. I always start off with assuming that someone deserves respect, and figure that if they don't deserve the respect, they will prove it through their actions.

Confucius (Kung Fu-tze) was known to have commented that "Respect to one's superior is Duty; respect to one's peers is Honor; respect to one's inferiors/subordinates is Nobility."

Showing respect to those who would seem undeserving of it only elevates the person demonstrating such humility even higher...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[tonbo]

Eraser, Yiliquan--thanks!!

I was pretty sure that I had my facts somewhat straight, but, as I am not an expert in eastern cultures, I couldn't be positive.

Yiliquan, thank you for the brief writeup. That is some very good information to know, and I didn't remember the Confucius saying!!

:asian: (bowing the appropriate level and angle for Martial Talk)

Peace--

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by tonbo

:asian: (bowing the appropriate level and angle for Martial Talk)

Peace--

right back at ya!

:asian: (also bowing the appropriate level and angle to express humorous appreciation for tonbo's post)

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I think bowing to a picture and to a mat is rather dumb in most cases........i call it a form of brain wash just like calling someone master.


OK, I don't.



BECAUSE The only real master is yourself.



Never really 'thought' of that before.


But what i do believe is bowing over time takes away your ablitiy to chose and all you do is try to apess people higher then you.


Trust me, a serious MASTER would not be impressed if you bowed. But he wouldn't be your master if you didn't.


But i do wanna hear what you good people have to say.

Only if you bow

I know I'm coming in late in this discussion, but I just couldn't help myself.

You state that bowing to something that isn't deamed greater than yourself doesn't need respect.

I say that without the world, with everthing in it, YOU wouldn't exsist. That makes me give big respect for everthing else than me, but if it doesn't for you it's up to you, and OK for me.

 

[tonbo]

You state that bowing to something that isn't deamed greater than yourself doesn't need respect.

"Something that isn't deemed greater than yourself"......hmmm....okay.....well......consider the following:

Anyone you step on the mat with, either for training or fighting purposes, has the *potential* to kill you.

Would you consider that worthy of respect? Read the "locker room" threads....people have died at competitions from being kicked in the head. Accidents happen. I once launched a spinning back kick on my opponent at the same time they tried to duck--caught 'em right in the throat. Luckily, he was far enough back that it just left him gasping for a few seconds, and no major damage. A few inches in more, and he might not have gone home that night.

I'd say that showing respect to something that has the power and potential to kill you could be a wise thing. Not that anyone *would* try to kill you during training--these are not dangerous times in class--but again, it *could* happen.

Just a thought. Remember: you may be big and bad, tough as nails, or even just a legend in your own mind......but you are human, mortal, and just as vulnerable as anyone else.

:asian:

Peace--

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by tonbo



Anyone you step on the mat with, either for training or fighting purposes, has the *potential* to kill you.

Would you consider that worthy of respect? :asian:

Peace--

Yes, I would respect him. That doesn't mean that I will handle him the same way I treat my girlfriend, or maybe it does :rofl:

/Yari

 

[tonbo]

ROFLMAO

Okay, you got me...:shrug:

I can't even come up with a good response on that.....but I'll just stand a little farther away, if ya don't mind. Nothing personal, you understand....

Peace--