We're doing this again? Okay...
It's pretty simple to me. But apparently it's a big 'thing' to others. Pulled this from an unrelated thread, thought it deserved its own discussion.
Bill, I like you. But here's the thing... you've missed what was said in that other thread. You think it was about personal interpretation and individual values and beliefs... it wasn't. Honestly, when it all comes down to it, it really doesn't matter what you, or anyone else seems to want to use their arts bowing approaches as... it matters what they actually are... which is what I was addressing in that thread.
I study at a dojo in the USA that we call a 'traditional' Okinawan style dojo (Isshinryu is our style).
And yet you're choosing to both embrace it as a "traditional Okinawan dojo", while eschewing the very aspects that are traditional (and Okinawan) about it... hmm...
We bow when we enter the dojo floor, and when we leave.
We bow to start and end each class - to our Sensei and to the shomen (wall of honor).
That's not what Shomen means. In simple terms, shomen (ę£é¢) simply means "the front proper" of the dojo... or the formal front side, if you will.
We bow to our partners before we begin working with them on self-defense techniques, kata, sparring, or whatnot.
We bow to our Sensei if he speaks directly to us.
And you're conflating the act of bowing independent of all other aspects with the rituals and ceremonies discussed in the other thread that involved (intrinsically) bowing as part of them. That was something I was clear about avoiding in the other thread.
We're told that the word 'rei' in Japanese means 'respect'. It is also the word we use to indicate it is time to bow.
I see using Google translate that ē¤¼ means 'thanks' or an expression of gratitude.
You may want to try this one, then:
#kanji ē¤¼ - Jisho.org
"Rei" (ē¤¼) can mean bow... etiquette... respect... gratitude... thanks... praise... worship... prostration... manners... courtesy... a pilgrimage... a ceremony... a gift... a reward... a ritual... and more.
Oh, and it's not an indication of a time to bow, it's a command to.
In any case, as a military veteran, I am not adverse to bowing. It reminds me of saluting, which I did a lot in the military. It serves a similar function.
No, it doesn't. You have decided to allot it a similar function for yourself, to match your own sensibilities, but that does not mean that it actually does what you think it does (or should).
When I bow upon entering and leaving the dojo floor, I am showing my respect for all those who have gone before, for the fact that the facility is there for me to train karate.
When I bow to my instructor, I show my respect for him. He returns the bow - showing his respect for me.
Again, you're applying your own value set, rather than trying to come to grips with what is actually going on and being represented. Yes, respect is a big part of it, particularly when it comes to between individuals, rather than various parts or areas of the dojo itself, but you're missing much of the cultural reasoning behind it all.
When I bow to the shomen, also known as the wall of honor,
Not what it means, and you don't bow to the shomen, you bow towards it... or to the kamiza... or to the kamidana, depending on what's present at the dojo itself.
I am not worshiping anyone or anything, as some have said.
No-one has said that. In fact, I went to pains to point out that these very Western ideas of worship were very out of place in this discussion.
I am once again merely showing my respect for those who put in so much effort and dedication in creating and maintaining a style of karate that is now being taught to me.
You do realise that this is a pretty major part of the heart of the Shinto aspect, yeah? The idea of paying respect (rei) to prior generations? It's just done with a look to their spirits as well as their memories.
A bow is more than a handshake, but less than a military salute.
According to what scale exactly, Bill? I know you're going to say "well, I'm talking from my perspective"... but that's the thing... your perspective is really besides the point. It is "more than a handshake, and less than a salute" to you... but that doesn't mean that it actually is from the perspective of the martial art and culture you're discussing... which, frankly, is the more important perspective.
It does not indicate obedience or worship or anything of that nature. It's not religious. Perhaps some in the West object to it because bowing to Kings and Queens is seen by many as subservient and therefore unacceptable. But this is not that kind of bowing. I do not think my Sensei, for example, is better than I am, or superior to me in any way. He is my teacher, revered and esteemed, and greatly knowledgeable in the art I am trying to learn. I bow to show my respect. He returns that bow to show his respect for my willingness to dedicate myself to learning what he is teaching.
Yeah, again, you're discussing things you don't understand or fully grasp.Yes, bowing can be religious (or, at least, done as part of religious ceremonies and rituals, or with religious overtones)... and the whole thing about "bowing to Kings and Queens"?!? Huh? Do you think that that was in any way common at any point in any culture? If it was, do you think bowing would be anywhere near as prevalent as it is across cultures?
Therefore, I have no problem with bowing in the martial arts.
Honestly, Bill, you don't understand bowing in martial arts. You're trying to make some sense of it based on your personal background and experiences... which is fine, natural, and normal... you're hardly the only person here doing it... most everyone in this, and the other thread are. But here's the thing... making up your own reasons for these cultural aspects, based not on the culture they come from, but on your own personal values and desires, doesn't bring you any closer to actually understanding them... nor does it actually help anyone, including yourself, come to any peace with the reality of the situation.
And ultimately, even if you believe none of those things, what's the harm? Does it kill you to show a little respect?
So... if you believe none of what you just said about your personal take on your views of the respect shown in bowing, why not just do exactly as you say, and follow your example? Based on your lack of appreciation for the cultural aspects your art is based on? Is that how you meant that to come across?
It's a action that has a symbolic meaning. It's not a intrinsic meaning, it's one people assign to it. If someones cultural / religious background says they shouldn't bow based on the meaning they associate with the action then I can't say I'd see a problem with it, but use another action that has the meaning that the bow is supposed too.
The problem is that the bow is part of a religious ritual... replacing the bow with another equivalent action to maintain the ritual (and it's intent) will retain the religious aspect... which is the heart of the objection.
I get the "when in Rome" mentality, and thats the way I would approach it. But at the same time I don't think it's worth making someone feel uncomfortable over if they come from a background that says they shouldn't do that.
That's up to them. It's not up to the art to make others comfortable. If their religious background and teachings forbids them from taking part in the religious activities of other religions, then that's it. Pretending it's not religious is one approach... and one that each individual has to come to some kind of internal peace with, if that's the choice... but asking a religious action to not be one is a bit ridiculous.
In another thread, the assertion was made that bowing in MA is, unequivocally religious. Several of us disagreed.
Oh, for gods' sake, no, it wasn't. What was asserted (and, I might add, accurately) was that a particular common ritual/ceremony found in many Japanese martial arts, classical and modern, which includes bowing as part of it, was unequivocally religious. The religious aspects were defined, demonstrated, explained, and more... but no one, not at any point, said that bowing, in and of itself, was unequivocally religious. In fact, that was vehemently denied each time it was stated, based on people not reading what I'd actually written.
In fairness to the other thread, I don't think
@Chris Parker ever said that bows were always religious. He said that the bowing to the founders (or whatever that specific tradition is) is a Shinto ritual.
Yep. Well, what I said was that the Shinto ritual found in many (most) Japanese martial arts was a Shinto ritual. And that that ritual involved the bowing that some religious members (potential and actual) had had issues with, due to it's usage in a religious form (and their religions own views on the act of bowing).
