Bowing=Brain wash

[J-kid]

you havent really shown any proof it dosnt all i have heard is. A bunch of people trying to flame me because of my opoinon . Is that not brain wash. like i said this is a freindly form lets not flame each other and P.S. i respect all people as fighters and dont bow./

 

[Dronak]

From dictionary.com:

brainwash -- v 1: persuade completely, often through coercion; "The propaganda brainwashed many people" 2: submit to brainwashing; indoctrinate forcibly
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

brainwashing -- n. 1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

So tell us, if bowing = brainwashing, what set of beliefs are people forcibly being indoctrinated into? What convictions and attitudes are being destroyed and replaced with an alternative? How is bowing persuasive and coersive?

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions can't be judged right or wrong in an absolute sense. What they can be judged on is how well supported they are. Many people here have given examples and reasons backing their opinion that bowing is a sign of respect. I don't think you've really given any support for your opinion that bowing is brainwashing. You've stated the opinon, but I don't see the reasoning for it. I think that the main point here is that you should be providing more evidence to back your opinion. I will agree that things can get out of hand. I think that court case is an example of things going overboard.

 

[fanged_seamus]

All the posts I read were respectful and gave the personal (or traditional) reasons for bowing to the training floor and other instructors. What were you looking for, people to agree with your opinion?

All of us are on these forums to learn to become better martial artists. When you ask for opinions and they are given, calling the posters "close-minded lap dogs" is a SURE way to draw flames and lose whatever respect we give you for asking the question.

And yes, some religions have strict rules about how they show respect. Some religions also have strict rules about being peaceful and not fighting. Some religions require you to dance naked under the moon. What does it matter? If the martial art you choose violates your religion -- don't take it!

 

[J-kid]

Only reason i started posting about the flaming. Is because some people get out of hand pritty fast . I can see from both view points and there are ecceptions to every rule out there. so like i said i didnt mean to afend anyone and i am glad you all told me what you thought . I like it when poeple show me other veiw points it helps you to see the whole picture. You can look at this any way you would like its your freedom.

Your friend Judo-Kid

 

[sweeper]

[qoute]you havent really shown any proof it dosnt all i have heard is. A bunch of people trying to flame me because of my opoinon . Is that not brain wash. like i said this is a freindly form lets not flame each other and P.S. i respect all people as fighters and dont bow./[/quote]

I don't think anyone was realy flaming you, simply attacking your position, you gota realise that when you say "bowing=brain wash" you have just said that anyone that bows is or is being brainwashed, now most people would find that offensive. And not it isn't brain wash.

and in regard to your responce to me, you proposed an idea than did not support it, it is not my responsability to suply evidence to the contrary, it is your responsability to support your position. Without support for a statement a statement is simply a statement, not an argument. You can state anything you want, it doesn't make it true and it doesn't give it any credability, you have to support your position if you are in a discusion or there is no validity to a statement. Now I havn't seen any support for your statment so there isn't realy anything to discus. That's also a reason people react hashly to your statements, by simply making a controversial statement and not supporting your position you aren't starting a discusion you are simply making a statement that attacks a position, you arne't gona get a debate out of it you are just gona get people saying "you are wrong" because there is nothing on the table to talk about. it just looks like you want to start a fight...

 

[Klondike93]

I can't remember, but I think they found for the plaintif (the one being sued), and the person is still required to bow.

And in 28 years I have never thought that bowing was religous or brainwashing in any form. I always looked at as a sign of respect to those that came and trained before me.


:asian:

 

[Dronak]

Yes, IIRC the ruling was that the martial artist can be told to bow before the competitions or whatever exactly it was they were arguing against. If it wasn't in that article, it was in a similar one someone posted a pointer to either here or on another board. I've never seen bowing as a problem either. Obviously some people do though. I think to some extent it's in your own mind. If you view the bow as a simple sign of respect, then that's what it is. If you view it as bowing to a false idol and thus it's against your religion, then that's what it is. Perhaps to some people they're one and the same, but I make a distinction between the two.

 

[Eraser]

Originally posted by Cthulhu





It would probably be a good idea for you to research these cultures before you start making blanket judgements about their practices.

Cthulhu

Couldn't have said it better Cthulhu...
I sorry but I do take a bit of offence when you say that bowing to the Dojang, matt, flags is brain washing.. do you have no respect for the originators of the martial arts???? DO you have any idea what they went through just to bring the Arts over to North America??
I also bow for respect for my instructors, and im grateful that they provide a place for me to learn and grow!! I'm sorry if these time hounoured traditions "Brain wash" you.. perhaps with a little more time in the arts you will see why its so important.!!!
Nuff Said:soapbox:

:asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[hand2handCombat]

the context of saying master is not saying he is your slave driver or your commander. like saying Father to a Priest.

 

[sweeper]

I think it's a matter of opinion, I personaly think bowing in most cases is rather pointless, in a fight it's just a salute, it's a way of saying "it's just a game, I'm not gona try to hurt you (bad)". other than that I would bow to respect those who think I should, bowing in any other case I would consider to be a ritual as it doesn't mean anything to me, it may symbolise respect but respect is in your own mind and the bow is simply a physical motion. Just my opinion : )

 

[Kirk]

I don't bow to flags of foreign countries. In EPAK, we're told that
the bow before getting on to the mat is to show respect for
where the style came from (China and Japan). That's enough
respect to them for their gift to us. My only devotion is to the
country in which I was born. Just my PERSONAL views of MY OWN
patriotism. I will bow to show respect to anyone else for various
reasons, but the flag is where I draw the line.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I didn't think many of you could understand . that would require a open mind. . . . Think about it

(* Sorry for the correction of the grammer, spacing and spelling of the quote. *)

Judo-kid,

I ask you, to think about it. Think about how you present yourself here. I understand from your posts you do not wish to offend, nor do you wish to be closed minded, but to be open minded. Yet, with the choice of your words to make the sentences you have written, you have done nothing but be offensive and close minded, In My Humble Opinion.

No one here has called you names, nor have they told you that what you do is wrong. So, how have you been flamed? Other than you assuming, through this written format from the posts here that differ from your point of view, that you have been flamed?

Think about your posts. Think about how you present yourself and those you represent here and elsewhere.

Just some helpful hints.

Rich

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk

I don't bow to flags of foreign countries. In EPAK, we're told that
the bow before getting on to the mat is to show respect for
where the style came from (China and Japan). That's enough
respect to them for their gift to us. My only devotion is to the
country in which I was born. Just my PERSONAL views of MY OWN
patriotism. I will bow to show respect to anyone else for various
reasons, but the flag is where I draw the line.

Kirk,

I agree and have no problem with you approach.
In our Co-op of a Dojo / training hall, there are four flags. The Stars and Stripes of the U.S.A., the Japanese, Korean and Filipino Flags are also hung on the wall. Even though the art I teach is Filipino, the flag I am showing respect too, is the Star and Stripes of the U.S.A. . This flag is my flag for my country. Just my opinion.

Train well

Rich

 

[Matt Stone]

I think the age of our esteemed colleague bears some consideration... According to his profile, he is a young 17 year old who is just now taking his first real steps into life and martial arts.

Perhaps we should all contact him in another 17 years and see if his views on things have changed at all...

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I can see from both view points and there are ecceptions to every rule out there.

And there are some rules that brook no exceptions at all. Like displays of courtesy and respect. It is difficult, without words expressing the fact, to display courtesy and respect to another person without some overt gesture. The bow, the curtsy, clicking of heels, salutes of various sorts, are all gestures which convey a meaning without excessive words. The meaning can be sincere or superficial, respectful or disrespectful, all by the manner in which it is done. No words are needed.

Expressions of disdain for what amounts to common courtesy among martial artists worldwide will, in all likelihood, forever run the risk of being perceived as blatant disrespect for the immediate participants, the origins of whatever art you are practicing, and those who have developed and taught the art for ages.

so like i said i didnt mean to afend anyone and i am glad you all told me what you thought . I like it when poeple show me other veiw points it helps you to see the whole picture.

It is in this way you can best be educated and incorrect assumptions may be corrected. Your views are the views of a young man approaching adulthood. They differ significantly from the views of many who have been practicing MA for literally longer than you have even been alive. I suspect, with a great degree of accuracy I must admit (especially given that I know that my views have changed over the years, sometimes drastically), that in the fullness of time your views will mature and grow as well.

Good luck in your training.

Gambarimasu.

 

[girlychuks]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Ididnt think many of you could under stand . that would requir a open mind. And yes bowing over time makes you like a lap dog. I have many friends who have been in diffrent martial arts after a year or so they start taking ****, from us there friends. say i didnt agree with one of there points and start calling him stupid , he wont do anything or if i slap him. gos the same for people he dosnt even know. Another good point is bowing in martial arts is agaist some people religion check this out a real case. Also this case comes from my gym . Think about it

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml

You have made no point whatsoever other than to prove you are no friend whatsoever. A friend is someone you love and respect and you would not slap or give sh*t to.

You are telling us to think like you and that is the opposite of an open mind. I bow because it is required to learn the martial art. And I love martial arts and the friends I make in the dojo. there is nothing closed minded about that.

 

[tonbo]

A visitor to a zen monastary observed a monk bowing to the statues of the buddha that adorned one of the rooms. The visitor laughed at the monk and said, "Hey, I thought that zen was all about freeing your mind from such things. My mind is more free than yours, since I don't have to bow to the statues! I can spit on them, if I want!" The monk, without missing a bow, replied, "Fine. You spit. I'll bow."

Fact is, neither bowing nor not bowing is showing closed-mindedness. Refusing to accept someone else's reason(s) for what they do is closed-mindedness.

Who cares whether you are wearing gis, saluting, bowing, wearing belts, wearing hats, wearing shoes, etc? What is important is what you are getting out of your art, and what appeal it has for you. Like I said before, if you like the tradition, go with it. If you want something more "new age", go with it. Spit on the statues or bow to them, they will remain the same. It is only your perception that has changed.

Judo-Kid, I respect your opinion, but I would caution you not to lead out with "bowing=brainwashing".....it tends to rub folks the wrong way. Maybe next time ask something like, "Why do we bow?".......

Anyway, arguing over it at all is rather pointless. We're all going to keep doing what we do anyway, so.....

*bows to all in the discussion*



Peace--

 

[KennethKu]

When I go to my girl's dojang, I'ld do exactly as instructed, to pay homage to the founder and the origin of the art. It is a sign of respect. No one does it to pay allegiance or to worship.

 

[Matt Stone]

Bowing, in more traditional arts, is one of the very first things a student learns how to do. He/she is taught the mechanics of the bow, when it is appropriate, and who receives such courtesy.

Eventually, the student will begin to develop the idea of the bow as a normal part of their behavior. They will no longer question its use or necessity.

In time, the student will grow into a humble person (so it is thought). They will realize that humility is one of the greatest strengths a person can have, and that true humility is the source of real courtesy and respect. The compassion that comes hand in hand with humility is what sparks the growth of courtesy and respect.

Have you ever had a waiter that said "yes, sir," and "no, ma'am," but you could tell that he did it begrudgingly and there was no shred of sincerity in his voice?

Have you ever run into an elderly nun on the street and felt the power of her compassion like waves rolling over you? (and we aren't talking the kinds of samurai nuns that wield steel rulers in church, either! )

There are other examples, but I think the point is made...

The first lesson you learn is how to bow.

One of the last lessons you may fully comprehend is why you bow.

In time, Judo-kid may realize these things. Or, he may retain a closed mind, influenced only by the teacher that allows such unenlightened interpretations...

Taken from the article posted by Judo-kid

John Holm, the Akiyamas' stepfather and judo coach, has said the Akiyamas' mother, Mariko, is a Buddhist and doesn't want her children to be forced to practice the rituals of Shinto, an ancient Japanese religion.

It appears that the mother is Japanese or at least of Japanese descent. I have lived here in Japan for 4 years, and bowing is one of the most common, daily, non-religious acts you will see... Just like the tipping of a hat or shaking hands has been in the US in the past. That strikes a blow at the credibility of the claim that it is a "religious act."

Additionally, if you ask most Japanese what religion they are, they will frown and be at a complete loss to identify what particular religious tradition they follow. Buddhist and Shinto traditions are so intertwined as to be nearly indistinguishable... And many traditions are no longer understood, whatever their origins! The only thing I could see is that the mother is a devout Buddhist bordering on zealotry, whose extreme view could have caused such a belief to exist in the first place. Or not. Perhaps it was the father/coach whose own skewed understanding of Japanese traditions and religious practices caused him to chafe at the idea of his children being subjected to such requirements. Or not. Perhaps he was just looking to make a name for himself and his kids for whatever reason. Or not...

Bottom line, there are many reasons for bowing in MA. Few, if any, have anything to do with religion, directly or indirectly.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[Baoquan]

I think perhaps a brief explanation of my nick - Baoquan - is appropriate here. I'm sure a lot of you are already familiar, but in the interests of Judo-kid's continuing education;

posted on http://infinite.org/library/pages/SBMAC1.6-268.html

The most commonly seen etiquette is the so-called baoquan which is usually used to say hello, bid farewell or express gratitude in the wushu communities. The name comes from such a gesture that a fist formed by the right hand is held by the left palm with thumb bent and other fingers drawing together, and in the meantime, both arms are bent to form a circle. There are quite different interpretations of the meaning of this etiquette. A widely accepted explanation is that to extend four fingers indicates all martial arts in the world are of the same line, to bend thumb means that you are modest, to put a fist in a cupped palm expresses the hope that you are willing to make friends through martial practice and to form a circle with arms shows that all martial artists on earth are of one family.

Of course, there are some other explanations for this etiquette. The following is among them. To straighten four fingers of the left hand is a Buddhist rite meaning willingness to practice charity and accumulate virtue. To cover the right fist with the left palm expresses the desire of oppressing the evil with the good and getting rid of brutal force with etiquette.

Judo-kid, welcome to the martial arts. I hope you continue in the tradition we all share, and i look forward to continuing this discussion when you have the knowledge and experience found in the members of this board.

Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by tonbo

A visitor to a zen monastary observed a monk bowing to the statues of the buddha that adorned one of the rooms. The visitor laughed at the monk and said, "Hey, I thought that zen was all about freeing your mind from such things. My mind is more free than yours, since I don't have to bow to the statues! I can spit on them, if I want!" The monk, without missing a bow, replied, "Fine. You spit. I'll bow."

Fact is, neither bowing nor not bowing is showing closed-mindedness. Refusing to accept someone else's reason(s) for what they do is closed-mindedness.

. . .

To all,

In some of the hot and dry climates in the history of this world, it was considered a great honor when some one was to spit. It meant they gave up some of their 'water' to the environment in your respect.

In the 'Western Hemisphere' today, to Spit is to be insulted.

The point of view many times if not always determines the meaning and value of an action.

Open your mind to allow for others to be different. Particularly those that are different from you. Yet, if you are approaching someone to have them teach you, then you should respect their ways and methods.

Just my opinions

Rich