Bowing

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when. It is in their literature and history documents. Ed Parker Sr must have watched too many Chinese movies, lol.

Well, to be honest so did I, but out of respect for the Kenpoists on this forum I restrained myself. Actually, I was thinking he got it out of Star Trek, it sounds a lot like a Klingon salute. (Right fist clenched over the heart.) Though whoever invented that one must have got it from the Chinese too.

So I suppose it just comes down whether Ed Parker Sr was a fan of Star Trek or Hong Kong cinema.

 

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu

In anycase, I did stated earlier that I view bowing no different from shaking hands etc, and would not have problem with it. Just that I don't attach too many onto it. Who knows. May be by attaching some protocol with foreign flavour in it, you get the kids' attention and provide some sense of regimental training, which in turns help instill discipline. Heck No one has ever being harmed by bowing.

I think we're on the same page here. It's just that some people, and not just kids either, do need an artifical protocol to remind them to act like decent human beings. Sad, but true.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
I think we're on the same page here. It's just that some people, and not just kids either, do need an artifical protocol to remind them to act like decent human beings. Sad, but true.

Kind of an odd comment from someone that claims to study iaijutsu/iaido, jodo.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Well, to be honest so did I, but out of respect for the Kenpoists on this forum I restrained myself. Actually, I was thinking he got it out of Star Trek, it sounds a lot like a Klingon salute. (Right fist clenched over the heart.) Though whoever invented that one must have got it from the Chinese too.

So I suppose it just comes down whether Ed Parker Sr was a fan of Star Trek or Hong Kong cinema.

The answer is a simple one, NEITHER and BOTH. Yes, he was a Star Trek fan and we spent a lot of time at the Sing Lee Theater in Los Angeles's Chinatown before the "chop sockey" movies were dubbed and popular.

However, (for those unaware) Ed Parker came from the Chinese arts and studied extensively with Chinese Grandmasters. He published a book "Secrets of Chinese Karate" in 1962' to educate the public of the true origin of the codified martial arts and "karate."

The book was so well written, the opening episodes from the "Kung-fu" T.V. series were taken right from the book. The book also included the salutation, and Ed Parker made no doubt regarding it's origin. In fact the American Kenpo salute, properly performed contains elements of the old Chinese and the new Chinese so it is actually 50/50 with the 2 halves being reversed depending on what is being done. The 2-man Set or "Book Set" is also in that same text.

What follows is a pasted explanation from an old Ed Parker manual and some comments.

THE AMERICAN KENPO SALUTATION:

A. History and Meaning: The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science.

"There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later."

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

"The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose."

RESISTENCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED

 

[white belt]

Kenneth Ku,

I teach the bow as a weapon. A head butt!! Bows don't hurt people, people do!

RyuShikan,

"Pain is weakness leaving the body"? My students must be constipated!

white belt

 

[KennethKu]

"...I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.) ...."

Except that Ed Parker sr. used to carry a gun.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
If that’s all you look for in it then that’s all you will get from it.

You have a point there. I should not be so arrogant as to impose my own view onto others.

No country is without flaw.
However, in Japan people can generally walk down any street in the wee hours of the morning or night without fear of being assaulted in some way. Which is pretty amazing.

The Japanese criminal syndicate Yakuza rule their tuff with ironfist. They are such an integrated part of the society. They run prostitution, gambling, extortion, especially extortion, drugs (and guns). They also own and run legitimate businesses. They don't allow random criminals to run amok in their tuff. Bad for business.

Its a good deal for the ordinary citizen, until they have something the Yakuza want.

This is obviously not the only factor at work, but one that is significant and seldom known to the outside world.

Really?
I was a schoolteacher in the Japanese Education system for many years and disagree.
What are you basing your opinions on?

My parents taught English in Asia.

Who knows but it doesn’t seem to do it any harm either. Judging from crime statistics from the US and say Japan………Japan has less crime…..and less violent crime specifically.

You should look at the crime statistics in other Asian captial cities , except may be Singapore.

It’s not.
However, America has the highest murder rate for any industrialized nation in the world………as well as the most serial killers……..and Indiana has produced the most serial killers of any state.

May be b/c we no longer teach kids those good ol American values.

 

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Kind of an odd comment from someone that claims to study iaijutsu/iaido, jodo.

Not really. Yes, rei does comprise a very important part of iai. I actually quite like learning and practicing all the intricate little pieces of etiquitte involved in these arts, I feel this adds enormously to the art, heck it's integrel to the art. But not all arts have a formal rei.

What I was talking about is Kenneth's comment that bowing or other displays of protocol might get kid's attention and go a little way towards instilling the idea of respect into them. Some people do need this. Be it the involved formal seated rei of iai, or just a quick bow as one enters the dojo, or even a salute as in American Kenpo, some people need to be reminded that even though we are all learning fighting techniques that doesn't mean we shouldn't be civilized about it. Like I said before, sad but true.

I was also agreeing with his comment in regards to the anti-bowing people that "no-one has ever been harmed by bowing". I can't see why learning iai or jo should make me disagree with that.

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when.

I believe I said in my description of the EPAK Salute that it was from the Chinese arts; also, Doc gave a more ellaborate description of the full Salutation, the one we more commonly do before forms.

 

[white belt]

Ed Parker playing that Assassin in the Pink Panther movie was a stroke of genious. Anyone that accomplished, with that amount of self deprecating humor, had to be pretty humble. Packin' heat or not!

Kenneth Ku,

Your parents taught English in Asia? I seeeee........and what was it that they were teaching to these English? I bet it wasn't bowing!


white belt