Bowing

[rmcrobertson]

When I was a kid, going to grade school and junior high back in the 50s and 60s, we all had to face the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning--in homeroom, we had to recite the Lord's Prayer (no, I was in a public school the whole time)--evenings, when I was on the base (Ft. Detrick; at the time, one of our two main experimental stations for the development of biological weapons), we had to get out of the pool and stand at attention while they played taps--when I was in Boy Scouts, well, you get the picture.

Now, a lot of Americans bow to money and to capitalism. They bow to shabby little tin gods like Deepak Chopra, Susie Ormond, Rush Limbaugh, and to cheesy little organizations too numerous to name. They bow to their mean-spirited boss at their pointless, drudgery job. They bow to politicians. They bow to things like their car...you see where I'm going with this.

And we bow to fourth-rate, bonehead ideas like NLP...Scientology....astrology...you take my point.

And we revere groups in the martial arts which not only glorify violence, but actively sell it.

And we're complaining about bowing on and off the mat? About saluting our fellow martial artists?

 

[J-kid]

And who do i bow down to?

 

[J-kid]

That post is a little off subject, We gonna look at globle bowing now?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Why not make a global issue out of it? You did, right from the start: brought in Christianity. Others brought up such matters as nationality--so why not?

Or let me ask it another way: aren't there things, and people, you bow to in some sense?

I should note that I will not respond to any impolite post. You wish to discuss things with those of us who've been around a little longer; great. You wish to argue: excellent. But the price of admission, for me at least, is good manners.

Thank you for your arguments.

 

[J-kid]

Everyone dos realize i am the only one on this side of the line.

But sure lets start it up. FIRE IN THE HOLE:bomb: :bomb: :nuke:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
And who do i bow down to?

Only you can answer that.

 

[J-kid]

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
…….To pick on Judo-kid just a little more (he's tough, he can take it! ), and to use him as a general example, when young, dumb and full of piss and vinegar, people tend to eschew such anachronisms like courtesy and respect in their rebellious drive to strike a name for themselves, to identify themselves as seperate from the group. I know I did it (I used to relish wearing my "Have a Nice Day A$$hole" t-shirt to school and tell all the teachers I hated to "have a nice day."), and I am sure that everyone else here is guilty of a little of the same. It is normal and natural.

Yiliquan1,

I think you and I talked about my days at Catholic school before and what ingenious ways they have for curbing inappropriate behavior.
We had many people come to our school like Judo-Kid………the attitude lasted about halfway through the first class of their first day of school.
Having a pissed off Jesuit as a teacher you soon learn just exactly what Hell really is.

 

[KennethKu]

Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills. Martial art is scientific conditioning and training of the human body and mind. I don't see why foreign etiquette is being made such a big deal. Westerners, in general, have this misconception that there is something unique in Asian culture that can cure the societal ills in Western culture. And Asians have the same illusions too. The fact is, NO. Asian societies have the same problems and plagues that they cannot resolve.

In Asia, when you go to class, you have to stand up and bow to your teacher when he/she enters and leaves the classroom. You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student. Have this made a society of polite, well educated, well behaved, responsible citizens? HECK NO! NOT A CHANCE!! So, bowing does horse piss for discipline and what not.

I don't see why in America, the good ol value of honesty, hardwork, keeping your words, be respectful, the ideas of fair play and equality, doing the right things, patriotism, extra courtesy to women and children, etc etc etc, are anything to be ashamed of or inferrior. Then again, may be I am just of a dying breed.

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Firstly, salutes in Kempo. What do you mean by "saluting"? Do you mean a snappy, military style salute, or are you describing something else all together?

it is not a military salute, also, I believe that most EPAK students spell it Kenpo. a salute in EPAK goes a little something like this, and any additions or ommisions from any of the elders and ranking people on the board, feel free to correct me :

with feet together, the right hand comes up to about chest level and forms a fist. this symbolizes the warrior: the power and the skill of the art. the left hand comes up to the right fist and "cups" over the fist. this can be done one of two ways: the left hand "covers" the right fist, or with the left hand open but fingers tight, can be perpindicular to the flat of the knuckles. the left hand symbolizes the scholar: the knowledge or the ethics of the art; "I have the skill (the right cleched fist); however, I have the knowledge of when and when not to use it (the left "cupped" hand)." in proper forming the salute, the elbows are anchored, the wrists straight, and should form a triangle.

as you can realize, this is slightly different than a formal military salute.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let's look at NOT bowing, and the removal of all the little things in martial arts--the trivial, unnecessary, pointless things that get in the way of real men, fighting. You know--leaving the locker room a mess, leaving the mats around, leaving your shoes in front of the door, walking on the mat in your shoes, walking through other people's lessons, etc. etc...starting fights at tournaments, screaming at six-years olds to "kill 'em! kill 'em," then screaming at the ref when you don't get what you want, swaggering across the mat in front of seniors at public exhibitions, unrealistic and arrogant self-defense exhibitions, bragging about all your fights, "for real...," well, you get the picture.

Oh, and certainly let's not forget the refusal of civility visible on the Forums. Or the tendency to personal aattacks, whenever we encounter disagreement.

Every single thing on that list, I've seen about forty times, or read about, and certainly not just in kenpo. Hm.

At first, I bowed to the mat and tried to be polite because I was told to. Then, I bowed to help focus my attention. Then, I bowed out of respect to the art, to my predecessors in it, to the art's history.

I also note--maybe it's just So Cal, but I doubt it--that year by year, people seem to display a little less respect for each other. I teach for a living, and year by year, students behave more like disrespectful fools. I don't think this issue about bowing just has to do with martial arts--I think it's a general sign of disrespect for anything that contradicts the status quo, and narcissism elevated to a personal principle, in capitalist society. Chaucer was right: "manners maketh man."

This is not to say that mindless obeisance is good. It's interesting to me that some of the very folks who aargued for addressing seniors as, "master," now seem to be opposed to a little bow/salute now and then.

It's just manners. And I repeat my earlier point: lots of people in this society bow to all sorts of things and people and ideas that don't deserve it.

Here's an idea: the assumption seems to be that bowing is hidebound tradition, and not-bowing is the freedom of the new. I think that's precisely backwards--the "radical," argument is the one that's conservative, safe, perfectly in line with dull, middle-class values.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[KennethKu]

What you have described is the bigger social-cultural problem with the society.

If we want students to be disciplined, respectful and courteous, we can instill those and demand them to act accordingly. We don't need to borrow Asian protocol to achieve that. I am not against being disciplined, respectful and courteous. Our military trains recruits for that. They don't need to bow or knee to achieve that. Bowing is artificial. I am not against it. I just don't attach too much meaning into it.

 

[white belt]

If a prospective student refuses to bow when entering and leaving the DoJang, I take that as a sign of arrogance and refusal to conform with rules in general. Same position on bowing across the ring to your sparring partner. If that simple rule can't properly be followed with any consistancy, would anyone on this forum want their MOM, WIFE or SISTER to partner up and spar with that STRANGER over someone who CAN follow rules and demonstrate selfless respect? Actions, or lack of, are more warning indicators to help keep order at a training facility. Religion is no excuse. Bowing at my school has NOTHING to do with religion. If a person bucks this rule, then what rule is next? The no groin kick rule or no nock out rule? I show them the door regardless of their flimsy excuse. I don't want the students who conform to basic principles suffer later for somebody elses lack of effort in the realm of respect. I have trained at a facility where there was no bowing. There were people training there with "behavior" issues. Most were very nice though. All it takes is ONE. I have a good friend who lost his ability to conceive a child due to ONE of these types who bent the rules. He almost died while the doctors were draining his testicles, one of which swelled to the size of a grapefruit. Bowing is no guarantee, but it is another potential aid in seeing what may happen.
And who might do it!

white belt

 

[Chronuss]

...the doctors were draining his testicles, one of which swelled to the size of a grapefruit.

um.....ouch. that makes me cringe even without the mental picture...

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills.

No, it has to do with discipline.

Originally posted by KennethKu
Martial art is scientific conditioning and training of the human body and mind.

If that’s all you look for in it then that’s all you will get from it.

Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't see why foreign etiquette is being made such a big deal. Westerners, in general, have this misconception that there is something unique in Asian culture that can cure the societal ills in Western culture. And Asians have the same illusions too. The fact is, NO. Asian societies have the same problems and plagues that they cannot resolve.

No country is without flaw.
However, in Japan people can generally walk down any street in the wee hours of the morning or night without fear of being assaulted in some way. Which is pretty amazing.

Originally posted by KennethKu
In Asia, when you go to class, you have to stand up and bow to your teacher when he/she enters and leaves the classroom. You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student.

Really?
I was a schoolteacher in the Japanese Education system for many years and disagree.
What are you basing your opinions on?

Originally posted by KennethKu
Have this made a society of polite, well educated, well behaved, responsible citizens? HECK NO! NOT A CHANCE!! So, bowing does horse piss for discipline and what not.

Who knows but it doesn’t seem to do it any harm either. Judging from crime statistics from the US and say Japan………Japan has less crime…..and less violent crime specifically.

Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't see why in America, the good ol value of honesty, hardwork, keeping your words, be respectful, the ideas of fair play and equality, doing the right things, patriotism, extra courtesy to women and children, etc etc etc, are anything to be ashamed of or inferrior. Then again, may be I am just of a dying breed.

It’s not.
However, America has the highest murder rate for any industrialized nation in the world………as well as the most serial killers……..and Indiana has produced the most serial killers of any state.

 

[TKDman]

After reading this thread and seeing all the various viewpoints, I now know why Bubbas everywhere open up new martial arts schools. HAIL THE ETERNAL MCDOJO.

 

[Kiz Bell]

with feet together, the right hand comes up to about chest level and forms a fist. this symbolizes the warrior: the power and the skill of the art. the left hand comes up to the right fist and "cups" over the fist. this can be done one of two ways: the left hand "covers" the right fist, or with the left hand open but fingers tight, can be perpindicular to the flat of the knuckles. the left hand symbolizes the scholar: the knowledge or the ethics of the art; "I have the skill (the right cleched fist); however, I have the knowledge of when and when not to use it (the left "cupped" hand)." in proper forming the salute, the elbows are anchored, the wrists straight, and should form a triangle.

as you can realize, this is slightly different than a formal military salute. [/B]

Thank you for the info. I'd be totally cool with that. Although I am not in the military myself, I do come from a military background and would've found it a bit odd doing if I had to do the military style salute.

 

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills.

No, but it does have a lot to do with interacting with your fellow classmates. Would you want someone to stand there picking their nose and eating it moments before you sparred with them? That's nothing more than a breach of etiquette, isn't it?

You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student.

Yes, but then they're pretty much bowing to everyone, aren't they? Isn't bowing a fairly common greeting/courtesy over there? I can't really see why this is any different from Western etiquette which requires one to say "Hello, how are you?" and smile politely to your ex-teachers, even if they did give you hell in maths.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
No, but it does have a lot to do with interacting with your fellow classmates. Would you want someone to stand there picking their nose and eating it moments before you sparred with them? That's nothing more than a breach of etiquette, isn't it?


Yes, but then they're pretty much bowing to everyone, aren't they? Isn't bowing a fairly common greeting/courtesy over there? I can't really see why this is any different from Western etiquette which requires one to say "Hello, how are you?" and smile politely to your ex-teachers, even if they did give you hell in maths.

1. Bowing is just an artifial protocol. Just b/c you don't bow, does not mean you have to act like a jerk. You can still conduct yourself with respect and courtesy.

2. In Japan, bowing is pretty much universal. But I was referring to is the artificial protocol imposed on a teacher-student interaction. All sound good in theory and students at school are forced to follow the protocol and pretty much so when they are outside. If you don't greet your teachers properly, you are scum.
The thing is, respect has to be genuine, not artificially imposed. Protocol would not get you genuine respect. So despite all the protocol and indoctrination, the kids will respect the teachers they can earn their respect and pretty much ridicule the rest. But that doesn't have much to do with what bowing is concerned here.

In anycase, I did stated earlier that I view bowing no different from shaking hands etc, and would not have problem with it. Just that I don't attach too many onto it. Who knows. May be by attaching some protocol with foreign flavour in it, you get the kids' attention and provide some sense of regimental training, which in turns help instill discipline. Heck No one has ever being harmed by bowing.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Thank you for the info. I'd be totally cool with that. Although I am not in the military myself, I do come from a military background and would've found it a bit odd doing if I had to do the military style salute.

Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when. It is in their literature and history documents. Ed Parker Sr must have watched too many Chinese movies, lol.