Blocks: open hand vs. closed hand

[JR 137]

Uechi-ryu sanchin is done open handed with a moderate amount of dynamic tension. all of the other karate styles do sanchin with a closed fist and a greater amount of tension and these styles can follow their lineage to Chojun Miyagi. Legend says that Miyagi's teacher, Kanryo Higaonna did his sanchin with the open hand and by the descriptions i have heard it sounds very similar to the Uechi- ryu version. it was Miyagi that closed the fists and made some alterations to the kata. the outlier in this is Ryuei- ryu which is an Okinawan style that claims its origins back to China. But they share an identical sanchin with Goju, closed fists & same pattern. while Ryuei -ryu claims to be direct from China the "genetic markers" tell us their sanchin is derived from Miyagi as well.
all that being said, to see open hand versions of sanchin one has to look to China and the kung-fu systems.

What would either shed some light or muddy the waters more on if Higashionna used open or closed hands would be to see it done in To’on Ryu. Allegedly, To’on Ryu’s (Kyoda Juhatsu?) founder kept Higashionna’s art as intact as possible. Kyoda allegedly started learning from Higashionna about a month before Miyagi and continued to train under him until Kyoda went to Japan to start teaching there. The name To’on Ryu somehow translates into Higashionna’s school.

Furthermore, Miyagi allegedly taught Sanchin open and closed hand, and with and without turns. I think the open hands and without turns was the oldest/original version he taught, and he evolved it to closed hands and turns over the years. He was also known to teach kata differently to different students who were training together, adapting the kata to the individuals’ strengths.

From everything I’ve read about To’on Ryu, which there isn’t very much out there, Kyoda kept Higashionna’s teachings intact. I’ve looked for To’on Ryu Sanchin videos, but haven’t found anything.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think the open hands and without turns was the oldest/original version he taught, and he evolved it to closed hands and turns over the years.

my impression from what i got from Morio Higaonna is that Kanryo did the turns just like uechi and that after Miyagi came back from his trip from China he closed the hands and took out the turns and put in the back ward steps.

 

[Hanshi]

Most of what I can speak to is my own experience with blocking. When I was just another student I was taught both but mostly closed hand blocks. Later as I was exposed to other arts I learned some important principles. The main one was that it's better to block than to get hit; and its better to parry than to block; and it's better to evade than to parry. Hard blocking is painful and bruising and I did years of those type drills. I rarely teach any hard blocks as I consider them "specialized".

A closed fist causes a closed body system; energy is not free to flow. So I taught open hands and parrying with sudden fist clinching for punches, etc. I found this was not easy for most students and required much thought and practice; but it paid dividends just the same. This is paramount in aikido especially but also in several other arts as well. The ability to "flow" and "meld" requires the ability to be relaxed and allow energy to flow like water; also needed is the training to enable the student to go from relaxation to a split second of hard fist and total body focus and back to relaxed. All this, understand, is accomplished in a tiny fraction of a second. I understand, too, that this is not news to most of the members here and I'm sort of "preaching to the choir". Sorry about that but I just enjoy these discussions.

 

[_Simon_]

Most of what I can speak to is my own experience with blocking. When I was just another student I was taught both but mostly closed hand blocks. Later as I was exposed to other arts I learned some important principles. The main one was that it's better to block than to get hit; and its better to parry than to block; and it's better to evade than to parry. Hard blocking is painful and bruising and I did years of those type drills. I rarely teach any hard blocks as I consider them "specialized".

A closed fist causes a closed body system; energy is not free to flow. So I taught open hands and parrying with sudden fist clinching for punches, etc. I found this was not easy for most students and required much thought and practice; but it paid dividends just the same. This is paramount in aikido especially but also in several other arts as well. The ability to "flow" and "meld" requires the ability to be relaxed and allow energy to flow like water; also needed is the training to enable the student to go from relaxation to a split second of hard fist and total body focus and back to relaxed. All this, understand, is accomplished in a tiny fraction of a second. I understand, too, that this is not news to most of the members here and I'm sort of "preaching to the choir". Sorry about that but I just enjoy these discussions.

Nah that's awesome, very insightful post! I've only ever been used to hard, closed hand blocking (apart from a few drills with footwork and parrying while moving off to the side), but in sparring would always work on open hand parrying and flowing more without tension. It's something I've struggled with learning, being more relaxed in training and only tensing when required, so am glad you brought that up.

That's a really nice way of expressing it, that closed hand can reflect a closed body/energy system and vice-versa, makes sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most of what I can speak to is my own experience with blocking. When I was just another student I was taught both but mostly closed hand blocks. Later as I was exposed to other arts I learned some important principles. The main one was that it's better to block than to get hit; and its better to parry than to block; and it's better to evade than to parry. Hard blocking is painful and bruising and I did years of those type drills. I rarely teach any hard blocks as I consider them "specialized".

A closed fist causes a closed body system; energy is not free to flow. So I taught open hands and parrying with sudden fist clinching for punches, etc. I found this was not easy for most students and required much thought and practice; but it paid dividends just the same. This is paramount in aikido especially but also in several other arts as well. The ability to "flow" and "meld" requires the ability to be relaxed and allow energy to flow like water; also needed is the training to enable the student to go from relaxation to a split second of hard fist and total body focus and back to relaxed. All this, understand, is accomplished in a tiny fraction of a second. I understand, too, that this is not news to most of the members here and I'm sort of "preaching to the choir". Sorry about that but I just enjoy these discussions.

I can't speak to energy flow, but I find closed blocks go with "hard" striking and open blocks go with grappling and "soft" striking (not the same as striking softly). There's a natural feel to the transitions, to me.

 

[drop bear]

Same hand is closed cross hand is open.

Generally.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Same hand is closed cross hand is open.

Generally.

I don’t follow, DB.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

closed blocks go with "hard" striking and open blocks go with grappling and "soft" striking .

Hard block - force against force (-><-).
Soft block - borrow force (->->).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hard block - force against force (-><-).
Soft block - borrow force (->->).

I'd say a soft block absorbs force, and a parry or deflection borrows it.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t follow, DB.

So a parry would be open hand. A cover is a closed fist.

And I noticed that I sort of do this with two handed blocks. One open one closed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So a parry would be open hand. A cover is a closed fist.

And I noticed that I sort of do this with two handed blocks. One open one closed.

When I use 2 hands blocks, both of my hands will be open. One hand on the elbow joint and another hand on the wrist joint.

I will

- push my elbow joint hand across my opponent's body,
- guide his leading arm to jam his own back arm,
- free my wrist joint hand, and
- ...

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Open hand blocks are more for tracing the opponents limbs to capture and trap the limb while close hand blocks bounce the opponents limb away from you.

Now theres also deflections where you meet and greet the strike while also using footwork like in aikido that allows you to also trace the opponents limb in order to gain control of the limb.

I personally find I can do more limb destruction with an open handed block since it allows me to use more loose full body power compared to a closed fist block.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So a parry would be open hand. A cover is a closed fist.

And I noticed that I sort of do this with two handed blocks. One open one closed.

Is it always the same hand doing each? Is there an intent behind it, or is it just a habit that has worked out well?

 

[Em MacIntosh]

If you're going to use open handed techniques, brake out the sand and mason jars. You want strong fingers. Fingertip pushups, make hamburgers, pull weeds, kneed dough and squeeze the stress ball in-between. Also, I've never met a kobudo guy who didn't have a crushing grip.
Personally, though my heito-uchi is much faster than my soto-uke or ura-tetsui, my ura-tetsui hits the heavy bag noticeably harder and in the case of the soto-uke, speed has never been as important as timing. There's all kinds of subtleties like having the forearm slightly more flexed for closed handed techniques, a somewhat justified feeling of security when you're protecting the fingers in a relaxed fist. I would describe it as a different kind of sanchin. Strong fingers can help with the feeling of security and reduce the likelihood of injury but a fist is a safer rest position. Open hands have their uses if you train for them but never leave a finger (or three) out there for someone to pull on.

 

[jsbrown205]

Uechi-ryu sanchin is done open handed with a moderate amount of dynamic tension. all of the other karate styles do sanchin with a closed fist and a greater amount of tension and these styles can follow their lineage to Chojun Miyagi. Legend says that Miyagi's teacher, Kanryo Higaonna did his sanchin with the open hand and by the descriptions i have heard it sounds very similar to the Uechi- ryu version. it was Miyagi that closed the fists and made some alterations to the kata. the outlier in this is Ryuei- ryu which is an Okinawan style that claims its origins back to China. But they share an identical sanchin with Goju, closed fists & same pattern. while Ryuei -ryu claims to be direct from China the "genetic markers" tell us their sanchin is derived from Miyagi as well.
all that being said, to see open hand versions of sanchin one has to look to China and the kung-fu systems.

Did not know there was an open hand version of Sanchin. Very cool. I have something to look for on youtube.

 

[JR 137]

Did not know there was an open hand version of Sanchin. Very cool. I have something to look for on youtube.

There’s a lot of versions of Sanchin. Here’s Uechi Ryu’s (aka Pangai Noon) version...

Part of the true magic of why do it IMO...

I worked out at a Uechi Ryu dojo for a semester while an undergrad. I was only able to attend their open mat night due to my schedule. The first thing they taught me was their Sanchin. I knew Kyokushin’s version which is Miyagi’s version of closed hands and turns. When I started to do theirs I thought “what’s this? This isn’t Sanchin!” Then they had me take off my gi top and I felt even more awkward. Then the sensei started “checking” my Sanchin by doing a significantly less intense version of what the sensei in the second video did. That’s when Sanchin started to actually make sense to me. Doing Sanchin open or closed handed doesn’t really make much of a difference if you’re training with the principles of the second video IMO. Before my Uechi Ryu time, all Sanchin was was awkward breathing and repeating a few punches while moving in a really awkward stance.

In my current dojo (Seido, which comes from Kyokushin), we do Kyokushin Sanchin. We often do it with our eyes closed while others push and pull us, hold our hands back, light punches and kicks to check our balance and tension, etc. Not at the level the Sensei’s doing in the second video, but I’m assuming there’s a progression when I get higher in rank.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm curious as to which karate styles use open hand vs. closed hand blocks, for high, low, and middle blocks. I expect that someone here has a broad enough knowledge to summarize which styles tend to use open hand blocks and which ones don't. It would save me doing hours of research. Thanks very much.

In the styles I have experiences, both open and closed hands are used in every blocking situation. Its been a while but I don't remember a closed hand block in Kali. You usually have a weapon or you are in an offensive posture. Maybe someone else with more Kali experience can speak to this.
I always consider the intent of the block. If blocking a weapon, I want all the surface area I can get so an open hand block is preferred. Also, an open hand lends itself to a parry or carry though move much better. If I want a very powerful block, a closed hand is better.

 

[dvcochran]

Even if the fingers don't break, it won't block or redirect the punch. Fingers aren't going to have the power necessary to block a punch coming from the whole body.

As @Dirty Dog said, it is incorrect to block with the fingers. That said, there are times I would take the slight reach advantage even it is was just the fingers.

 

[jsbrown205]

There’s a lot of versions of Sanchin. Here’s Uechi Ryu’s (aka Pangai Noon) version...

Part of the true magic of why do it IMO...

I worked out at a Uechi Ryu dojo for a semester while an undergrad. I was only able to attend their open mat night due to my schedule. The first thing they taught me was their Sanchin. I knew Kyokushin’s version which is Miyagi’s version of closed hands and turns. When I started to do theirs I thought “what’s this? This isn’t Sanchin!” Then they had me take off my gi top and I felt even more awkward. Then the sensei started “checking” my Sanchin by doing a significantly less intense version of what the sensei in the second video did. That’s when Sanchin started to actually make sense to me. Doing Sanchin open or closed handed doesn’t really make much of a difference if you’re training with the principles of the second video IMO. Before my Uechi Ryu time, all Sanchin was was awkward breathing and repeating a few punches while moving in a really awkward stance.

In my current dojo (Seido, which comes from Kyokushin), we do Kyokushin Sanchin. We often do it with our eyes closed while others push and pull us, hold our hands back, light punches and kicks to check our balance and tension, etc. Not at the level the Sensei’s doing in the second video, but I’m assuming there’s a progression when I get higher in rank.

As I progressed through the ranks the striking and tension checks definitely ramped up until it was very similar to what that second video shows.