The two hand "X" block against a kick?

[Brian S]

Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because I have no clue? ...just because that was the way it is in karate! There methods of teaching Karate
As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught or what they read, like me!



Many movements in Kata should be questioned on internet forums? To be use in real fighting on the streets or whereever like on the playground or the mall. That's where I practice my deadly skillz!

Again like the high block was mistakenly misinterprated and taught in the kata to me...so was the "X" block taught to stop a kick......NO OTHER REASON except for me to injure myself, break my own limbs, etc!

"Yes" it could be consider a foolish move like so many other techniques in many Kata today! in those days...that was just one more method to learn to stop a kick. I love to practice my sport karate in deadly situations!!!

Gichin Funikoshi...may have not create some of the kata's....or maybe made changes as he saw it then......he too...was teaching them as he learn it before........this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you did not learn it. Will you share the real way with me.

True story ..today Mom why to you cut the end off the ham...because that was how grandmother did it.....called their grandmother....becuse that is how my mom did it.......called greatgrandmother....why did you cut the end of ham off? ....because it did not fit in the oven!

Is martial arts like this today? .........just look at all the controversy's I have created on the internet.

even something as simple as using two hands to block a kick? (which is a sport version) ....we (me and my hamsters) have a thousand versions of what it means.............

PS: Today we have a Big oven....for those who have a small one...you are welcome to use mines..(land mines?)...

Maybe better not to use the hands to block....just take the kick instead.....for BLOCK HEADS (like me) ONLY!

Thanks Brian S, for fixing my quote for me. I now that uke means "to receive" and not "block".[/quote]

Fixed that for you, still arguing.

You are not a fan of kata because you learned them in a sport based martial art. Now, you want real applications. The applications were not taught to you properly and you can not learn them on a message board.

 

[jks9199]

Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate! There methods of teaching Karate
As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught!

Many movements in Kata should be question? to be use in real fighting on the streets or whereever!

Again like the high block is taught in the kata...so was the "X" block taught to stop a kick......NO OTHER REASON!

"Yes" it could be consider a foolish move like so many other techniques in many Kata today! in those days...that was just one more method to learn to stop a kick.

Gichin Funikoshi...may have not create some of the kata's....or maybe made changes as he saw it then......he too...was teaching them as he learn it before........this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you will learn it....

True story ..today Mom why to you cut the end off the ham...because that was how grandmother did it.....called their grandmother....becuse that is how my mom did it.......called greatgrandmother....why did you cut the end of ham off? ....because it did not fit in the oven!

Is martial arts like this today? .........just look at all the controversy's

even something as simple as using two hands to block a kick? ....we have a thousand versions of what it means.............

PS: Today we have a Big oven....for those who have a small one...you are welcome to use mines.....

Maybe better not to use the hands to block....just take the kick instead.....for BLOCK HEADS ONLY!

:deadhorse

Words ain't gettin' through... maybe pictures will?

You don't like kata. That's fine.

You apparently believe each technique has one interpretation and one use only. That's fine.

Many of us, based on our own experience and training, have a different view.

It's quite clear to me that nobody's mind is going to be changed anytime soon.

Let me try one more time.

You enjoy fishing, right? If I tell you that you should use a particular lure for mahi-mahi, does that mean that same lure won't occasionally net something else, like tilipia? Or can a lure be used to catch more than one type of fish?

OK.

I'm done.

Since I don't see this making any progress, I'm done with this thread. In fact, in response to your issues with kata in general, I'm done. I'd encourage others to consider this approach. 'Cause just ain't fun.

 

[Cirdan]

Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate!

hmm.. so you never learned Kata beyond just doing the movements in one precise way. Yep I agree, that is a bad way to do it. Sorry you wasted a lot of time.

this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you will learn it....

I assure you many others do it quite differently not_learning. Your insistance that this is not possible makes little sense. I think you are trying to justify not understanding Kata for yourself, not having a meaningful discussion. Also, you are very much starting to sound like a true sheep. Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, over and over again no matter what we try to tell you. Sad really, because a lot of great advice have been given by people trying to help you here.

 

[MrE2Me2]

Hello, The controversy will go on forever..............

To some it will.

To others, kata is an integral part of their practise.
Kata contains many vital elements to those who practise it.
But there is that word..."Practise"...not typing and not arguing..."Practise".

For those who do this, there is no time for controversy.
There is time to question how and when and where and against who.
It isn't a matter of if...

 

[DArnold]

Is this upward?

If so it may also depend on when and where you stop the kick.
If you stop it before the power stoke the block is simple.
If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!

 

[MJS]

Is this upward?

If so it may also depend on when and where you stop the kick.
If you stop it before the power stoke the block is simple.
If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!

Yes, good points, and this is where I was hoping to take this thread waaayyyyy back with my post 49. I think we should now start looking at exactly where you would execute this X block, if that was the choice for a block.

 

[MJS]

hmm.. so you never learned Kata beyond just doing the movements in one precise way. Yep I agree, that is a bad way to do it. Sorry you wasted a lot of time.




I assure you many others do it quite differently not_learning. Your insistance that this is not possible makes little sense. I think you are trying to justify not understanding Kata for yourself, not having a meaningful discussion. Also, you are very much starting to sound like a true sheep. Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, over and over again no matter what we try to tell you. Sad really, because a lot of great advice have been given by people trying to help you here.

Well, I think you hit the nail right on the head my friend. However, I can sympathize with SL...just a little bit, as I was at one time, in the same boat as he. I had an instructor who, for the life of him, could not provide me with an explaination of what the moves in the kata were. A typical convo. would go like this:

Me: What is this move for in the kata? I'm not quite sure how its used?
Inst: Well, we do it that way because.......................................................................................................because thats the way its done.

Notice the long pause there? Thank God I eventually came into contact with folks that were able to really make me think and help with the applications. Sure, there were times when I was able to figure things out on my own, but IMO, if I was expected to pass on this material, I wanted to be able to give others at least one application, before I told them to be creative and figure out others on their own.

In this case here though, one of two things seem to be happening. Either the person doing the kata just doesnt feel they should have to do any legwork and should have everything handed to them, or such as the case with me, the inst. doesnt know either, so how can he pass anything on?

I do think that we should stop banging our heads though, as JKS suggested. It gets old, boring, tiring.

 

[howard]

If you are coming down with your arm at me I can stop it with 1 finger if I stop you at the right time!

So what's the right time?

 

[still learning]

Hello, I not sure if any of you were taught the "X" block from your Sensi's....

Most likely you did...because it is in the Shotokan systems....from the Kata's

same for the double hand blocks (X) above the head? ...have you guys ever learn this? .....just one of the many blocks taught..

Kata ? someone mention S/L learn it as a sport form? .....I never heard of this? Is there such a thing as sports Kata's? in traditional shotokan?

My past Sensi's both 5th degrees (learn from Japan masters), in Hawaii never taught "sports" kata's. NO SUCH THING in shotokan!
Karate as we learn it....was NEVER FOR SPORTS.......

IF you Sensi says to use the "X" block...to block a kick? .....what does this means to you?

picking weeds with hand cross? ....grabbing to two shoes with hand cross? .....in cases of the high cross block ...reach up to scratch someone under arms?

I guess my teachers were wrong to show us to block a kick with cross arms? ...I wonder about the one hand blocks too?....was it meant to block something? UM ....could it be a "bug" flying by our heads too!

How many of you are aware of using this block ("X") blocking high and low?

IF you never done it? ....I do understand now!

X is a good place to start...."Y" who knows....the controversy goes on!

Did you know? ....many leaders of the world...has thousands of followers....who will die for their causes....follow everything that is told to them......sheeps

In your studies of the martial arts.....how many are sheeps

If one art is so good? ...how come today lots of people are cross training?

How come most schools are adding others arts to their training that was never taught before?

Simple? .....those teachers/Instructors knows ......? not going there?

In our system we have 21 choke holds...I sure many of you have more...a couple of them use's the "X" or cross arms for the choke!

The "X" for blocking kicks ...is not to choke the kick..ugh! gotta tap...legs getting no "air"....

People ask why do I keep repeating myself or go back to this forum?....I wonder about you too!

I guess there are more foolish people than we realize? ....just me OK!

Martial art forum...a place to share your thoughts and beliefs.......right or wrong...good or bad....correct or not...each of us has a choice to choose what we want to believe?

I believe carrots can grow to be orange's (in color,one day scientist will make it taste like an orange! believe it or NOT?

"X" cercise is good? is it this good?

Aloha

Sensi Sidney Kano resides in Kona ,Hawaii and still teaches
Sensi Terry Smith resides in Waikoloa, NO longer teaches (retired)

 

[still learning]

Hello, Forgot to add this:

Sensi Sidney Kano (Shotokan Karate)

Sensi Terry Smith (ShotOkan and Goju Ryu Karate) When Terry live in Californa his Sensi just move from Japan..when their first training classes open....

Terry said they (husband and wife) could speak hardly any english...and Terry NO Japanese....

As time went on...the Sensi's learn english and Terry learn Japanese....

The Sensi's Wife was an All Japan Kata champion....whom Terry learn from...everything was about "PERFECTION"

That was the way he taught it to his students...just wanted to share this...NO sports kata's just the traditional stuffs....perfection was the key....that is the way we remember learning them....to perfect each movement...Aloha

 

[Cirdan]

If you didn`t move beyond perfecting individual techniques you did not do "the traditional stuff". It is rather typical modern shallow brain dead Kata for the masses. Step one and barely so. This is like believing you can write fluently just because you have memorized the alphabet.

“It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practised sufficiently, but one must not be ‘stuck’ in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training.” -Hironori Otsuka

In case you did not know, Otsuka received his Karate training from Funakoshi (among others)

 

[MJS]

Interestingly enough, while surfing thru some posts here, I came across this. Pay special attention to post 4. This may explain SLs stance on kata.

Martin Buell was a student of the late Walter Godin. He eventually went his own way, and has made significant changes to his style of Kempo. As far as I know, very little emphasis on forms.

IIRC this is the org. that SL trains under. Now, hey, if someone is doing their own thing, thats fine, best of luck to you. I've never met the man, nor have I heard of him, except on this forum. However, if what was said is true, then I can now see, why there is so much confusion/dislike of kata.

 

[Sukerkin]

Excellent find (to use the word 'expose' would be over-gilding the lily but it does explain much).

S_L for one last time I shall try to entice you into seeing that no matter how much you want something to be true, sometimes it simply isn't. Now I realise that this cuts both ways and also concede that to argue your case is not necessarily being disruptive per se. But, that being said, the ground you're on is not firm in terms of the actuality of what kata based training is all about.

I've hinted at it before but you are not doing your reputation any good with this constant grind of us telling you "Look! The sky is blue!" and your gainsaying of that. For all our sakes, please stop and think on both what we have said in various forms in various threads and your reaction to the same.

I commend you on the fact that when given some fairly brusque responses you have, in the main, retained your calm. That was very well done. But, as with any activity involving human interaction, there is usually a reason why people start to become exasperated. Sticking to your guns is one thing and commendable under some circumstances but there comes a time when it is better to be the willow than the rock.

Mata Na.

 

[Brian S]

Hello, I not sure if any of you were taught the "X" block from your Sensi's....

Apparently you are not reading my posts. How else would I know the x-"block" if I wasn't taught it?

Most likely you did...because it is in the Shotokan systems....from the Kata's

same for the double hand blocks (X) above the head? ...have you guys ever learn this? .....just one of the many blocks taught..

I don't do shotokan. I don't like most shotokan I seen. It's sport based and geared that way from the beginning of the system. It can be trained to fit other needs,but that's not mainstream IMO.

Kata ? someone mention S/L learn it as a sport form? .....I never heard of this? Is there such a thing as sports Kata's? in traditional shotokan?

Traditional shotokan is sport based karate, therefore, the kata would be too.

My past Sensi's both 5th degrees (learn from Japan masters), in Hawaii never taught "sports" kata's. NO SUCH THING in shotokan!
Karate as we learn it....was NEVER FOR SPORTS.......

IF you Sensi says to use the "X" block...to block a kick? .....what does this means to you?

picking weeds with hand cross? ....grabbing to two shoes with hand cross? .....in cases of the high cross block ...reach up to scratch someone under arms?

I guess my teachers were wrong to show us to block a kick with cross arms? ...I wonder about the one hand blocks too?....was it meant to block something? UM ....could it be a "bug" flying by our heads too!

How many of you are aware of using this block ("X") blocking high and low?

IF you never done it? ....I do understand now!

X is a good place to start...."Y" who knows....the controversy goes on!

Did you know? ....many leaders of the world...has thousands of followers....who will die for their causes....follow everything that is told to them......sheeps

In your studies of the martial arts.....how many are sheeps

If one art is so good? ...how come today lots of people are cross training?

How come most schools are adding others arts to their training that was never taught before?

Simple? .....those teachers/Instructors knows ......? not going there?

In our system we have 21 choke holds...I sure many of you have more...a couple of them use's the "X" or cross arms for the choke!

The "X" for blocking kicks ...is not to choke the kick..ugh! gotta tap...legs getting no "air"....

People ask why do I keep repeating myself or go back to this forum?....I wonder about you too!

I guess there are more foolish people than we realize? ....just me OK!

Martial art forum...a place to share your thoughts and beliefs.......right or wrong...good or bad....correct or not...each of us has a choice to choose what we want to believe?

I believe carrots can grow to be orange's (in color,one day scientist will make it taste like an orange! believe it or NOT?

"X" cercise is good? is it this good?

Aloha

Sensi Sidney Kano resides in Kona ,Hawaii and still teaches
Sensi Terry Smith resides in Waikoloa, NO longer teaches (retired)

I'm sorry you were taight this way, but it is not a block at all. There are no blocks in kata. I know of 10th dan's who teach this way, but they aren't right either IMO. does someone's rank make them right? Seems like to me that you are the sheep.

Ask yourself this. Why would I lower both of my hands to block a low kick? Wouldn't that leave your face,head,neck etc... open? where are their hands? There are many questions like this.

The answers lie in the translation as I have said before.

I am joining the other guy. Do the research for yourself, get some good instruction, and quit repeating yourself. With all due respect,I'm finished talking to a wall.

 

[wesley]

the two handed "X" block does have it's use's in a real fight. i study HwaRang Do and was taught this block very early. both the downwards and upwards version.

it is effective against front kicks or a punch towards your solar plexus, in that it lets you stop the kick, or punch, with a lot of force, and gives you a chance to catch your opponent for a throw or a joint lock. as well as hurt them a lot if you strike their shin or wrist with your forearm.

the way you all make it sound is that it leaves you so vunerable. all i have to say is, Their punch wont hit you if your out of reach, fading back at an angle will solve that problem... and they cant move if you now have control of their leg or have a joint lock on their wrist...

as for the argument about kata's, or form's, whatever you want to call them...
a kata is set of techniques linked together in a row, preformed against a set of imaginary opponent's.
it is only ment to practice the workings of a technique..try getting into a fight with only kata's for experience and you will probably lose.

personally i dislike this "sport" stuff, i see to many people go to these street corner "McDojo's" and come out after a week thinking they can pick a fight and win..

a perfect example is a guy in my rotc unit. he came over to my house talking about how he was going to be a black belt in tae kwon do in a few weeks, how they had been doing all this training with knives and other weapons. i asked him to open handed spar with me, first thing i did was a light, right backhand to his head...he looked at me in shock as it landed..saying, "you cant aim for the head!"
"what will someone on the street do??" i asked...
after that i asked him what his defensive knife techniques looked like, and fetched my wooden training knife... i slowly attacked him with a stabing motion letting him show me his technique, he didn't even move out of the way of the knife.. tried to block it with a top block, i just spun the knife down and used the pomel to twist him in a joint lock and let him go when he tapped out on his knee's. ...i had let him have plenty of time to strip the knife from me..and i preformed my offensive, non-lethal technique slowly.
..i felt horrible afterwards. People need to understand that the rules of a mat are not the rules of the street.

when working on these kata's you need to think, "what if i get attacked like this.. and how am i going to get out alive."
the kata's are you time to say WHAT IF...not the streets, when faced with a mugger at knife point...

and everyone...please try to keep personal comments out of this, lets have a friendly discussion.. no more of this, your a sheep, he's a lamb, that guys a lamb chop... i KNOW everyone has been taught disipline since they were a white belt.. lets try to act like we're adults here.

 

[Brian S]

Wesley,

I'm not sure waht your experience level is,but you have a gross misunderstanding of what kata are. Seems to me that you are describing what you claim to dislike,mcdojo.

Kata are not against multiple opponents, kata is not a prearranged fight. The bunkai you described is sport stuff,awful,ineffective, unrealistic.

If this is what karate really was, I wouldn't waste my time.



I'm going to just walk away from this one.

 

[Cirdan]

People need to understand that the rules of a mat are not the rules of the street.

And your demonstration of knife lethality by turning a stab into a wrist lock illustrates this how? I think you need to realize a few facts about this yourself, having turned 18 and being an adult and all.

-People attacking you with a knife are trying to kill you. Period.
-If you get stabbed you are likely to receive a life threatening wound.

 

[MJS]

Has anyone noticed that the proponents of the X block against the kick, fight that until they're blue in the face, yet I haven't seen one answer to poor post 49.

"Yes, Yes, Yes!! This block is for a kick!! Nothing else!!!" Ok...so as I was trying to do before...if this block is so effective for a kick, lets hear at what point the X should be executed.

 

[oguzalp]

Hi all,
"X" block, kosa uke, wa uke, can apply to, jodan, chudan or gedan level kicks ot fists. One of the important thing when it use is distance and dachi as all others. This uke provide easy ukemi possibilitys, if you can apply correctly.
Take care
O.Hakan Oguzalp

 

[wesley]

Cirdan,

by killing an opponent in a knife fight while being a trained person the rules of self defense dont apply the same to Martial Artists.. because if you kill your attacker, you'll still go on trial, and they'll ask, "havent you had training on how to stop knife attack's?" it can be used, and has been in the past. (in England they threw a farmer in jail for shooting a burglar in the leg, for defending his life and his house they threw him in jail for something like 3 years...and the burglar took him to court and won for the gun wound to the leg!)

and, i only used the nonlethal technique because of a personal issue. i know many lethal techniques it's just that, i've seen a friend of mine take a wooden knife in the wrist because he messed up his block.

my point was that, just because you have a black belt does not mean you know a lot. pride only lead's to close mindedness, and therefore one's downfall.

you should never think, "because i was taught this, and practice it this way, then it will happen like this on the street..."

there are MANY things that are not taught in schools that are EXTREMELY effective in a street fight.

and on the "X" block issue.. over half of HwaRang Do's Orange belt techniques start with steping back and blocking a kick, following up with a block to a punch, or punches, and then counter attacking. i'm sure if these techniques were good enough for Korean Elite warriors who often faught at hand to hand distance then they still apply today.