The two hand "X" block against a kick?

[Brian S]

still learning,

Did you read my posts here?

When dealing with blocks I think the term "uke" is the problem.

X-block = Juji uke, uke means to receive.

"block" is a sucky Americanized misenterpretation of the word "uke."

block = an unspecified parry, jam, guard, check, forearm strikes, etc.

vs.

'block' = the sucky kind of hard blocking a straght punch, downward strike, etc...

Therefore, there are no blocks in kata.

Why would you need to conform to a specific technique to block? Why are there so many different ways to block? There's not, there is only misenterpretation and misunderstanding of the applications. That makes sucky karate in my opinion.

?? Leads me to question if you are learning at all, much less still???

Many posters here have gone round and round with you about very similar subjects, yet rather than reading and "learning" you remain argumentative. Many of the posters here are long time practitioners of the very things you question,yet you do not "learn."

You can't find the answer to your questions on a discussion board(at least not to your satisfaction)it's a poor place to ask things that need to be shown. Inside the dojo and from your instructor is where you will find the answers. After doing what many people here have been doing for years.

Maybe you can change your screen name to still_arguing.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata

Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"

The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!

What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES? FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else?

We are not talking about chinese or korean or any other....the kata that was show us (shotokan katas').....using the "X" blocks!

That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........

IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?

Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....

To teach techniques with movements (Heian or pinon) PRECISE SETS. REFER to Karate ONLY!

Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS

WAR can be hazardous.......even if it is not a consider a war?
War of words...and interpretations....each has their own beliefs......NO win-win ever!

Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick?

Aloha

PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?

 

[MJS]

Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata

Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"

The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!

So...because YOU never see any other explaination, YOU assume that is the end of what it means? Like I said...oh, I lost how many times already...why should someone teach the student everything without the student ever having to put any effort in?

What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES? FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else?

So, because this is all YOU saw on the video, YOU are assuming thats all there is. Well, what about the people on here who are trying to tell you that there is more to it?

That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........

No, the reason is, because people refuse to think for themselves. They don't want to explore anything, or do any work for themselves. Instead, they want their teachers to do it all.

IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?

Didn't we already go down this road in another thread? You need to go and re-read those posts. I'm afraid you don't and sadly never will understand kata.

Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....

Please don't say what I know and do not know, when you yourself do not know the meaning of kata.

Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS

Again, go back and reread the other thread. We've discussed this already.

Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick?

Again, you're watching a video, assuming that there is nothing more than whats shown.

Aloha

PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?

Yup, you got it..its a high five.

 

[jks9199]

Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata

Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"

The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!

What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES? FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else?

We are not talking about chinese or korean or any other....the kata that was show us (shotokan katas').....using the "X" blocks!

That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........

IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?

Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....

To teach techniques with movements (Heian or pinon) PRECISE SETS. REFER to Karate ONLY!

Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS

WAR can be hazardous.......even if it is not a consider a war?
War of words...and interpretations....each has their own beliefs......NO win-win ever!

Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick?

Aloha

PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?

Heaven help me... I'm going to try this again.

OK... Gichin Funakoshi teaches his son one explanation of a kata, this is later recorded in a film/book/video/series of Etch-A-Sketch drawings.

Is it just maybe possible that he taught others, that weren't put into the book for reasons that range from complexity to simple lack of room, or even deliberately hiding some of the interpretations for those who won't look for them? If I demonstrate the use of a rising block against a hammer punch... then you can't use that block against, say, an axe kick or a punch to the face, right? That's what you're suggesting. It's wrong -- but it's what you keep suggesting.

Let me again use personal experience. I've had the privilege of receiving instruction in my styles black belt level form, the Line Form, from our chief instructor on several occasions. He's taught several of the sets with the same movements, but different interpretations. I've also had several different interpretations shown by different senior black belts in our system. On another occasion, one of my instructors demonstrated one set of that form with about 10 different interpretations and applications in about 20 minutes. Either there is more to the form than the surface movements... or these folks are either too dumb or too careless to remember the interpretation from one moment to the next or just really good at making stuff up on the fly.

I think you can guess where I come down. Each movement has multiple applications, and most kata/forms/hyung/patterns are simply shorthands for theories and tactics and methods, not explicit applications.

You might consider it something like the difference between learning one song on a musical instrument, and actually learning how to play the instrument.

 

[Cirdan]

Gichin Funakoshi is also known to have said the following:

"You may train for a long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do."

"To practice kata is not to memorize an order. You must find the kata that work for you, understand them, digest them and stick with them for life."

I suggest you take his advice still_learning

 

[Sukerkin]

I think you can guess where I come down. Each movement has multiple applications, and most kata/forms/hyung/patterns are simply shorthands for theories and tactics and methods, not explicit applications.

You might consider it something like the difference between learning one song on a musical instrument, and actually learning how to play the instrument.

That is one of the best precis of the core of martial arts training I've ever read - well done that man and consider your insights safe for posterity ... because I shall nick them and pass them off as my own .

Oh all right, I shall, of course, give due credit ... rumours that that's just because you carry a gun for a living are vile slanders :lol:.

 

[onibaku]

I think evading would be better than take on the kick

 

[morph4me]

Hello, Gichin Funikoshi teaches his son an how to use ''X" block in a Kata

Years later...His son Kenneth Funkoshi teaches in Hawaii and makes "KATAS" on video tapes showing what each movement is doing with several of his students attacking on each part of the "KATA"

The "X block is shown as a low block to a KICK? ....NO OTHER EXPLANTIONS (on tape).......JUST A BLOCK TO A KICK!

What are we who have these tapes to believe? ......people who years later are NOW experts NO LONGING BELIEVES? FUNIKOSHI actual videos doing the techniques is suppose to be something else??

I have been in the martial arts for over 20 years. If I were to tape what I learned in that time it would take alot more than one video, and if I could learn what I don't know it would take a library of videos. one explanation on one tape isn't the end all meaning of a technique, my explanation of an X block would be completely different and no less valid than anyone else's

We are not talking about chinese or korean or any other....the kata that was show us (shotokan katas').....using the "X" blocks!

It's amazing to me that an instructor can put all the information he has about a particular technique on one video tape. I'm sure that there are people on this board who can take one technique and do a two day seminar and still not cover everything they know about it.

That is one of the reasons many people are not FANS of Kata's ....people believe anyone exept for those who made the Kata's? .....it purpose and intent......has loss it true purpose..............like sheeps....many follow without questions........of their teachers..........

IF Kata was so successful WHY do other sports, fighting schools, MMA...follow them?

Maybe because kata is a teaching tool, designed to build muscle memory and give structure to the techniques they are teaching.

Kata many of you do not know the difference between Kata training and practice training....each has it own meaning...like boxing training is training NOT A KATA? ......Kata referrel to a set of movements made by karate masters manly from Okininwa who learn a few things from China....

To teach techniques with movements (Heian or pinon) PRECISE SETS. REFER to Karate ONLY!?

Boxing or others do not call them Kata's? .....Jap, Jap, punch, duck, weave jap, punch...IS NOT CALL KATA'S! JUST PUNCHING DRILLS?

I drive a Honda accord, my friend drives a Volkswagon Passat, my aunt drives a Mercury Sable but they are all cars, different makes and models but all cars. If I eat Lo Mein or Spagetti I'm still eating noodles. Kata's and drills are not called the same thing, but they accomplish the same goals. It

WAR can be hazardous.......even if it is not a consider a war?
War of words...and interpretations....each has their own beliefs......NO win-win ever!?

Drills can teach the same skills as kata, even if not considered a kata.

Something as simple as expert Karate master (Funikoshi) showing how and it purpose......of the "X" block....to some cannot believe it!...just a block to a kick? ?

There are expert karateka on this board who have said that they know of other applications, yet you choose not to believe them

Aloha

PS: Now for the PUNCH? ..in a kata? ......is it something else too? ...maybe high five?

Learning is much easier with an open mind

 

[MJS]

Well, avoiding/deflecting is my first pick as well. Now, slightly related to this, if we look at, say, an overhead club attack or one coming in from the side, you're going to ideally want to stop that momentum before it gets too far. Lets take the overhead strike. Person draws back to swing the club. Your best shot at defense, IMO, is going to be before the club gets more than half way.

Now, looking at a kick. Opponents right leg is back, and they begin their kick towards you. I would think that the same prinicples would apply with the kick as with the downward strike. If you intend on stopping it before it gains too much momentum, you're going to have to really lean forward, which can cause you to a) be off balance and b) forcing you to lean.

Maybe I'm just not picturing this correctly because I dont have anyone here with me to try this out on, but in any case, this is what leads me to believe that there are other applications aside from blocking a kick.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

That is one of the best precis of the core of martial arts training I've ever read - well done that man and consider your insights safe for posterity ... because I shall nick them and pass them off as my own .

Oh all right, I shall, of course, give due credit ... rumours that that's just because you carry a gun for a living are vile slanders :lol:.

Steal... er... borrow away.

I generally figure if I say something smart, I probably copied it from someone else anyway! If I say something wise -- I definitely obtained it...

(But what's the concern about carrying a gun for a living? Don't you play with long sharp things? They scare me more than bullets!)

 

[still learning]

Hello, The controversy will go on forever...............is he running away when he runs or is he running to get help? ...or running to return with a weapon?

Like Kata's.....NO one knows which or why he is running? Each movements in the kata can be many things.....ONLY TO THE PERSON WHO IS USING IT!

when taught to use it as an "X" block ....to a kick...then that is what it is at that time.......one can change it to whatever they want to later on from an "X" to a "Y" or W, Z, or A or J.....

Funikoshi....taught it to be a double hand block to the KICK ........NO other reason here...just one way to block a kick in this particular Kata...in others he uses the one hand blocks and parry blocks to kicks too.....

Funikoshi....knows the the kick can be block by many ways including steping away......

Some of you refuse to believe this is 100% rule here.(X) block...there are many other Katas from Funikoshi....this one teaches the X block in this one....

To bad we cannot ask the people who made the Kata's for the true answers...

I am not sure if "Kenneth Funikoshi" is still alive? ...but I would like to here his thoughts on this? ..

.....Aloha ...martial arts has many paths and beliefs...some are? and others are some? ....the controversy will go on and on.....

PS: would you like to go fishing instead? .....how you fish? .....we like the hook....more than the X block....

 

[MJS]

I think we should take this thread in another direction. If you look at my post #49, I commented on the use of the X block for a kick. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves if this block is the best choice? IMO, if we're going to execute something, I'd think we'd want to do something that has a pretty good chance of working, with little to no injury to ourselves.

So, despite what someone had shown in a video on kata, I think its more productive to discuss the best application.

 

[Cirdan]

s_l it soulds like you think Funakoshi invented the Pinan, or Heian as he called them. This is not the case. Also, you will find a lot of different interpertations in the varius styles using the Pinan Kata. For instance students of Shotokan and Wado are not likely to block (or receive) the same way. There are no "true" anwsers, things just are what they are. In this case, movement.

 

[newGuy12]

I for one would think that what we are calling a "low x block" would be one of the LAST ways to deal with a low front kick.

I'll add two things:

1) The forms sure do "feel good" when you do them, no matter what the application.

2) You are not joking -- after seeing that video of the knife attack that was posted the other day, I would think that (as long as the attacker was CLOSE IN) I would rather have a gun pulled on me than a knife! What's more, we don't even wish to think about a sword! The bladed weapons are no joke! Not to be taken lightly!

 

[gblnking]

I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well.
I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period.
This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.

 

[Touch Of Death]

This may have been brought up already but the X-block works a lot better if you are real up close and personal. Standing at a boxing range or longer would make the whole idea a little dangerous and less effective.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well.
I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period.
This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.

So the bad posture and timming couldn't have anything to do with the failiure you wittnessed? I'm thinking this is where martial artists go wrong. Rather than accepting that skill levels are at play they just dismiss the technique all together. Are you prepared to give up everything that you see a student fail to do?
Sean

 

[Brian S]

I trained for years in traditional Crap Fu Do, at a school that not only recongnized itself as a "McDojo" but it hardily proclaimed that it wanted to be the McDonalds of martial arts. A school on every street corner was the motto of the grossly over priced instructors training course. As I read this post I reflect on my fabulous < cough cough> training and remeber the "Eagle Block" (X-Block). Taught as a block for a kick. I remember watching two over zealous twenty something male students free sparring without protective gear which was highly recommended by the school to keep things real. One student delivered a fast front snap kick while the other decided to attempt the "Eagle Block" technique. Needless to say it didn't have quite the result that we all thought and had been taught that it would. In fact it left the blocker with the middle, ring, and little finger broken. Not only were the fingers broken but the kick broke through the defense and because the blocker leaned forward slightly to execute the manuver he took a foot to the mug as well.
I guess as I have matured over the years and have done my due diligence in finding good schools the greatest lesson that I've learned is that all styles have a few bad moves that for some idiotic reason they hang on to them in the name of tradition. Or better yet they'll give you a load of bull about the technique having a higher purpose that one day you might be entitled to learn. Any school that claims to have super secret techniques only taught to certain students, or that there are hidden meanings in lessons yet wont tell you what they are full of crap. Martail arts are lessons in learning how to fight. Period.
This is one of those bad techniques that should be retired and chalked up to being good for nothing more than fluff for a form.

The failure was not that he did the x- block technique improperly. The failure began when he attempted to do the x-block at all. It's not,nor has it ever been a block. That is a sport application that will get you injured,as stated.

The x-block has grappling applications, everyone has their own version. The one that's best is the one YOU can get to actually work.

As for Funakoshi explaining things as a block, he was marketing. Back then he didn't want people to see them as a violent nation. Lots of politics involved in martial arts, it has never been a good thing.

"uke" means to receive

block is a poor Americanized misenterpretation of the word "uke"

 

[still learning]

Hello, NOT a fan of Kata's...had to learn them because? ...just because that was the way it is in karate! There methods of teaching Karate
As a new students? ....one just follow what is taught!

Many movements in Kata should be question? to be use in real fighting on the streets or whereever!

Again like the high block is taught in the kata...so was the "X" block taught to stop a kick......NO OTHER REASON!

"Yes" it could be consider a foolish move like so many other techniques in many Kata today! in those days...that was just one more method to learn to stop a kick.

Gichin Funikoshi...may have not create some of the kata's....or maybe made changes as he saw it then......he too...was teaching them as he learn it before........this is the way I learn it...this is the way it teach it...and this is the way you will learn it....

True story ..today Mom why to you cut the end off the ham...because that was how grandmother did it.....called their grandmother....becuse that is how my mom did it.......called greatgrandmother....why did you cut the end of ham off? ....because it did not fit in the oven!

Is martial arts like this today? .........just look at all the controversy's

even something as simple as using two hands to block a kick? ....we have a thousand versions of what it means.............

PS: Today we have a Big oven....for those who have a small one...you are welcome to use mines.....

Maybe better not to use the hands to block....just take the kick instead.....for BLOCK HEADS ONLY!

 

[MJS]

SL, a few questions for you.

1) Why do you repeat yourself in every post you make?

2) Why don't you read what others are saying in their posts?

3) Why do you not see that there are many applications to each move?

4) Why can't you offer a reason to my last post I made in this thread?


You seem to be so firm in your position, but yet you can't offer anything to back it up. Instead you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again. Let me ask you once again...do you really think that a) the X block is the best block for a kick and B) what methods you use to block a kick?