Black belt - is this ok?

[just2kicku]

I'm not a TKDist, so I can only go by my own experience. In our art, I trained six and sometimes seven days a week for my first two years. It got me to purple belt. I was also roomies with my instructor and would get woke up all hours of the night for "old school" training in the living room.

I did have previous MA training and it still took me eight years to get my bb. And to this day, I still don't really know if I'm actually qualified! I do think that 10 months is a little quick, but it's not my school.

Any color the belt is still just as effective in holding your pants up!

 

[dbell]

I have run this through my mind since the OP, and keep coming to this thought:

1st Dan Black Belt to me means that a student has learned all of the basic skills, techniques and philosophy of the system. He or she may not have 100% internalized it, but they know the main content of the art, and are able to start teaching the basics to other students. There is still learning, in most arts through 3rd Dan, and some systems 4th Dan and on, but after 1st Dan, more internalization happens.

A person may be able learn, with the proper training, time spent training, etc., the basics of some arts in 10 months, so, yes, this can be accomplished.

In my forty years of studying the arts, including TKD/TSD, I have seen VERY few teachers able to teach it in that time, and even fewer students able to grasp 100% of the basic techniques (requirements through 1st Dan) in 10 months, studying 6 days a week, for three hours a day. I have seen even fewer people actually studying that much, where they are actually taking lessons and being watched and taught for more than two to three hours a day, six days a week.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I ask for a more important reason. Long story short.

Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about. This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor.
Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) . Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training. Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off. Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF.

I then decided to always ask the basic questions i.e. cert. # etc.

Regarding the bolded part, I don't understand this reaction (although I've seen it before both towards the ITF and, more commonly, towards the Kukkiwon).

If the instructor was the one ripping them off shouldn't they be upset at the instructor? As far as the ITF (or Kukkiwon in the case of people getting fake KKW dans) is concerned they weren't members in the first place. What they shoud do is take their instructor to small claims court to sue for breach of contract since they were paying for something they never got and get their money back.

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

I'm not a TKDist, so I can only go by my own experience. In our art, I trained six and sometimes seven days a week for my first two years. It got me to purple belt. I was also roomies with my instructor and would get woke up all hours of the night for "old school" training in the living room.

I did have previous MA training and it still took me eight years to get my bb. And to this day, I still don't really know if I'm actually qualified! I do think that 10 months is a little quick, but it's not my school.

Any color the belt is still just as effective in holding your pants up!

We cam all agree it is never the color of the belt but one thing is for sure a BB should be able to try and defend one self from an attracker and if Tigerlove feels goos about that than a BB are they.

 

[IcemanSK]

Regarding the bolded part, I don't understand this reaction (although I've seen it before both towards the ITF and, more commonly, towards the Kukkiwon).

If the instructor was the one ripping them off shouldn't they be upset at the instructor? As far as the ITF (or Kukkiwon in the case of people getting fake KKW dans) is concerned they weren't members in the first place. What they shoud do is take their instructor to small claims court to sue for breach of contract since they were paying for something they never got and get their money back.

Pax,

Chris

I was a member of the school Master Weiss is referring to. Yes, we were all really upset with the instructor. The statute of limitations is long over for small claims court. At the time, it was the farthest things from our minds. It's hard to explain why some of us were upset at the ITF: even though the ITF had nothing to do with him. The best way to say it is that a lot of anger was directed in a few directions. Most of it was directed squarely at the instructor. It's hard to be told, "he was fake, the real ITF is over here," & be willing to trust that that was the case.

Some of us did go with Master Weiss. I didn't because I wanted to pursue other things at that time. After 16 years, the ITF hasn't been terribly damaged in the minds of those of us who went through it. The common thought among those I still speak to from the school is we wouldn't give the time of day to the instructor.

 

[d1jinx]

I was a member of the school Master Weiss is referring to. Yes, we were all really upset with the instructor. The statute of limitations is long over for small claims court. At the time, it was the farthest things from our minds. It's hard to explain why some of us were upset at the ITF: even though the ITF had nothing to do with him. The best way to say it is that a lot of anger was directed in a few directions. Most of it was directed squarely at the instructor. It's hard to be told, "he was fake, the real ITF is over here," & be willing to trust that that was the case.

Some of us did go with Master Weiss. I didn't because I wanted to pursue other things at that time. After 16 years, the ITF hasn't been terribly damaged in the minds of those of us who went through it. The common thought among those I still speak to from the school is we wouldn't give the time of day to the instructor.

I too can relate to this all to familiar scenario. One reason, I think that people are left with a bad taste in their mouth about an ORG, is because while its not the orgs fault, nothing is done to penalizes these instructors when they are cuaght doing such things. I know for a fact a REGISTERED/CERTIFIED/Whatever KKW guy who doesnt process his own students DANS but lets them think they are. They Org should strip the rights and privilages from these individuals. There should be a reporting system of these instructors, but thats kindof unrealistic and had to police.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I too can relate to this all to familiar scenario. One reason, I think that people are left with a bad taste in their mouth about an ORG, is because while its not the orgs fault, nothing is done to penalizes these instructors when they are cuaght doing such things. I know for a fact a REGISTERED/CERTIFIED/Whatever KKW guy who doesnt process his own students DANS but lets them think they are. They Org should strip the rights and privilages from these individuals. There should be a reporting system of these instructors, but thats kindof unrealistic and had to police.

Hmm. I know of a case or two where a person who was a member of an organization was issuing bogus certs and one where a person was taking money and simply not getting the certs because he never processed the paperwork, just kept the money and said "Sorry things are so slow. Politics, you know." In each case the person in question got in quite a bit of trouble with the organization.

But the situation that was brought up in this thread, if I'm reading it correctly, invovles a person who wasn't part of the ITF in the first place. Nothing they can do if they're not aware of what's going on in the first place and the only thing they can do if they are made aware is legal action since the instructor falls outside of any internal disciplinary action. It sounds like it was a bad situation as it was really a betrayal of trust and an utter lack of integrity on the part of the instructor. I feel bad for the students involved and hope they didn't let it influence their view of MA's in general.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Bushi40]

I am sorry to say, even if you trained seven days a week, 10 hours a day, you still should not make black belt ranking. That is why it taks years to acheive black belt. Your neurons and muscle fibers need time to build an electrical path, cordnation, timming, balance, motor control and much more. Do a little research through the internet and see for your self. If you have an actual fight or have to defend yourself, you will bee greatly disapointed, the martial arts is designed for protection. Your instructor is not doing you justice. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Grand Master
Gene perceval
In the arts since 1955

 

[TigerLove]

I am sorry to say, even if you trained seven days a week, 10 hours a day, you still should not make black belt ranking. That is why it taks years to acheive black belt. Your neurons and muscle fibers need time to build an electrical path, cordnation, timming, balance, motor control and much more. Do a little research through the internet and see for your self. If you have an actual fight or have to defend yourself, you will bee greatly disapointed, the martial arts is designed for protection. Your instructor is not doing you justice. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Grand Master
Gene perceval
In the arts since 1955

I have some thoughts on that as you can see in this thread of mine.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84288

About instructor and $$, i don't pay fee at all. All i payed is certificate and member card, all together 65$.

I was in few actual, real street fights, and i very sucessfully used my martial arts training to defend myself.

The time to build muscle memory, motorical skills and other stuff is not the same for every person - and especially not for the person who trained gymnastics and similar since litlle.

 

[terryl965]

Tigerlove you are what you believe you are and people have the right to believe what they believe. Believing one way ot the other does not effect anybody but you, so I say to everyone if Tigerlove is happy with everything than who are we to say it is wrong?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally through the years many arts/systems, instuctors, people have devalued the black belt so much that frankly it is upseting at times. Maybe I come from the background that it should be an incredibly high degree of skill and execution of movement, coupled with knowledge and of course wisdom. Maybe I believe that it should have extensive meaning that not everyone should be able to attain it. Hey, maybe that is just me. I personally think five years is a good starting point to work from but have no problem extending it to ten if someone needs the extra time. I also have no problem extending it down some when one individuals previous skill sets & natural apptitude warrant it. Still in the end it should be some thing that is precious and not just given away to anyone. Quality over quantity! Also if you do not continue to train then forget about calling yourself a blackbelt, martial artist or whatever. If you do not continue to train then you were a -insert here- but are most definitely not now! Just my 02 as harsh or not harsh as you might view it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have some thoughts on that as you can see in this thread of mine.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84288

About instructor and $$, i don't pay fee at all. All i payed is certificate and member card, all together 65$.

I was in few actual, real street fights, and i very sucessfully used my martial arts training to defend myself.

The time to build muscle memory, motorical skills and other stuff is not the same for every person - and especially not for the person who trained gymnastics and similar since litlle.

Which leads me again to question which ITF since unless your country has "Third world status" which qualifies for reduced rates $65.00 seems on the low side.

If we knew which ITF we could research the fee structiure further. what was the dan # on the certificate?

 

[terryl965]

Which leads me again to question which ITF since unless your country has "Third world status" which qualifies for reduced rates $65.00 seems on the low side.

If we knew which ITF we could research the fee structiure further. what was the dan # on the certificate?

You are never going to get that info., remember that has already been determined.