2nd blue tip on my black belt

[Jaeimseu]

Agee wholeheartedly that Instructors need to cover costs which can vary greatly and that they should be well compensated.

I take issue with:

"Our instructor made it very clear that the cost of the test was based on the idea that if the cost of entry was too cheap, there was little incentive for the applicant to take the test seriously. By putting a monetary price on the test, in essense, constitutes a barrier to overcome mentally and physically"

I'm not a big fan of this either. I think people ought to just say, "This is the price." If an owner feels he needs to justify his fees, maybe the fees are too high. I don't know why some people are afraid to admit they make a profit, or why other people take issue with MA instructors making a good living.

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[WaterGal]

I'm not a big fan of this either. I think people ought to just say, "This is the price." If an owner feels he needs to justify his fees, maybe the fees are too high. I don't know why some people are afraid to admit they make a profit, or why other people take issue with MA instructors making a good living.

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I think a lot of Americans/Westerners feel that if you do something artistic or spiritual or that benefits the community, you should be willing to do it for free. That the work should be it's own reward.

For example, I went to school for design. I can't tell you how many offers I got or saw to do free work for "for my portfolio". They really thought I wouldn't care about getting paid for spending 20 hours on their project, since I enjoy the work.

And then, if you're doing something that benefits people/the community, you can feel bad asking for "too much" money (even if it's the amount you need), since it means that some people can't afford to get that benefit.

I think a lot of martial arts teachers have internalized these attitudes about their work, so they feel guilty asking for too much money, or maybe just think they'll look bad if they make a good living, so they make these excuses or explanations about why things cost as much as they do.

 

[skribs]

For example, I went to school for design. I can't tell you how many offers I got or saw to do free work for "for my portfolio". They really thought I wouldn't care about getting paid for spending 20 hours on their project, since I enjoy the work.

I think that's more like a small unpaid internship than thinking you are just volunteering. Sorry, off-topic devil's advocate.

And then, if you're doing something that benefits people/the community, you can feel bad asking for "too much" money (even if it's the amount you need), since it means that some people can't afford to get that benefit.

I can understand this sentiment. The big issue is that services that are only for the rich are classist and racist. But...it's all about the money, and martial arts training isn't one of the basic needs of life.

 

[WaterGal]

I think that's more like a small unpaid internship than thinking you are just volunteering. Sorry, off-topic devil's advocate.

Unpaid internships doing work for a company in exchange for college credit are common in the arts and humanities, though they're pretty classist and somewhat illegal. But some random person or small business asking you to make them a website or whatever "for your portfolio" isn't that - it's just somebody trying to get something for nothing. I have friends who are professional musicians and artists who get the same kind of thing, where they get asked to do a 4-hour gig "for exposure", or people are shocked that they expect $200+ for a painting that took 10 hours.

 

[reeskm]

I knew that particular part of my account (regarding a cost for the test being a "barrier") would be controversial. I agree it most certainly is. However, keep the following in mind:
- at the time, and since then, I have seen lots of similar martial arts schools charging $1000 to $2000 for dan tests. Local TKD schools commonly do this (no criticism here of TKD - they are simply the closest art and run schools commercially in Calgary)
- Our teacher always made it crystal clear that the belt was to be earned and could not be bought
- At the time we were members of the ATA (American Tang Soo Do Assoc). In the years since, we split from the ATA due to the high cost of membership, required attendance at USA events which, due to distance from western canada, were very costly for members. Of course, there were other disagreements between the GM's and that were strictly of a personal and business/commercial nature. Those that stayed with us disagreed with the direction towards more commercialism became evident and costs were increasing, and we didn't perceive a benefit for our students and members here in Canada. Some members chose to stay with the ATA because they enjoyed that connection to the members in the USA and didn't mind shelling out for out-of-country tests, camps, seminars, etc, and agreed with that organization's practices.
- Since the split, our dan test fee dropped lower due to lower registration fees with our new organization.
- our teacher always made exceptions for students that had trouble coming up with the full cost of testing. It wasn't like testing was determined by your personal wealth or financial circumstances. He always made reasonable accommodations.
- my teacher opened schools in the very late 70's through the 80's and 90's when the commercial scene in the USA and marketing martial arts schools became a huge deal and big business. He was brought up in this age and went to all the seminars of the time and no doubt was heavily influenced by this very American approach to business.
- That being said about the commercial scene in the 80's and 90's - in the last 5 years he started to completely turn the other direction as he felt times had changed and this was not the way to run a martial arts school. He put way more emphasis into the quality not quantity aspect and promoted it actively to all of us dan members. Like usual, some of us got it, and some didn't.

And now all the MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai joints do all the crazy marketing here and it's interesting to watch! I wonder if they'll ever take a "turn to the traditional way" like we have...

 

[drop bear]

I knew that particular part of my account (regarding a cost for the test being a "barrier") would be controversial. I agree it most certainly is. However, keep the following in mind:
- at the time, and since then, I have seen lots of similar martial arts schools charging $1000 to $2000 for dan tests. Local TKD schools commonly do this (no criticism here of TKD - they are simply the closest art and run schools commercially in Calgary)
- Our teacher always made it crystal clear that the belt was to be earned and could not be bought
- At the time we were members of the ATA (American Tang Soo Do Assoc). In the years since, we split from the ATA due to the high cost of membership, required attendance at USA events which, due to distance from western canada, were very costly for members. Of course, there were other disagreements between the GM's and that were strictly of a personal and business/commercial nature. Those that stayed with us disagreed with the direction towards more commercialism became evident and costs were increasing, and we didn't perceive a benefit for our students and members here in Canada. Some members chose to stay with the ATA because they enjoyed that connection to the members in the USA and didn't mind shelling out for out-of-country tests, camps, seminars, etc, and agreed with that organization's practices.
- Since the split, our dan test fee dropped lower due to lower registration fees with our new organization.
- our teacher always made exceptions for students that had trouble coming up with the full cost of testing. It wasn't like testing was determined by your personal wealth or financial circumstances. He always made reasonable accommodations.
- my teacher opened schools in the very late 70's through the 80's and 90's when the commercial scene in the USA and marketing martial arts schools became a huge deal and big business. He was brought up in this age and went to all the seminars of the time and no doubt was heavily influenced by this very American approach to business.
- That being said about the commercial scene in the 80's and 90's - in the last 5 years he started to completely turn the other direction as he felt times had changed and this was not the way to run a martial arts school. He put way more emphasis into the quality not quantity aspect and promoted it actively to all of us dan members. Like usual, some of us got it, and some didn't.

And now all the MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai joints do all the crazy marketing here and it's interesting to watch! I wonder if they'll ever take a "turn to the traditional way" like we have...

As mma tends to become a structured system it will become more tma.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOMKeK7Llc