Bible proven by Fulfilled Prophecies

[SenseiBear]

don't for one minute think that I will not use the bible and history to support my position, regardless of whether or not you decide it is "preaching".

In your position of "Moderator", I would like to see you address your above "Warning" to those who will take a position opposite to mine, as quickly as you did to me.

Thank you very much for so quickly biasing the discussion against the validity of the Bible, with your "attempt" at moderation... thats pretty fair minded of you.

Relax, relax, relax!

I suppose you can use the bible, but I won't accept it. The orignal texts of the new testament have been re-translated, re-edited, and re-worked so many times - the oldest extant copies probably exist in a vatican vault somewhere. You sure don't know whats in them, not to mention the dozens of books left out.

The old testament originals have been lost in the mists of time. You could maybe get close by comparing and combining the torah, the bible, and the koran - but i'm not sure how many prophecies would survive.

Question for you - How many books of the new testament were written by people who had ever met jesus? How about by people who were actually alive at the same time jesus was?

That is why I asked for ancient prophecies with modern fulfillment. Old testament prophecies with new testament fulfillment isn't proof, it is the second half of the same story (oh my god, a prophesy from the first harry potter was fulfilled in the third - fictional witchcraft is the TRUTH)

 

[parmandjack]

No worries guys, I'm cool...

It just appeared that the discussion was having a bias imposed on it from the start, and that I was being told I couldn't present my proofs for my side of the debate... which doesnt make it a debate anymore right?

Anyways, it is obvious that you guys will be able to barrage me with valid questions and doubts, as well as what you feel is proof for your argument...

Obviously I wont be able to keep up (daresay I "against") you all so I will keep moving forward through your responses answering them as best and as quickly as I can...

I also have two small babies yelling daddy daddy at me constantly, so all my attention cant be focused here too fast...

So, you see me addressing your points in order as best I can, but at a much slower pace than you can present them to me...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I had a rather long discussion with someone recently on the subject of Biblical predictions...the short summary is that those predictions, like those of Nostradamas were about -current- events, not future.

Also, outside of the Christian Bible, there is no proof of Jesus' existance. There is a rather long thread kicking around here somewhere that goes into more depth on that one. Summary - No census data, dates/times/people don't line up, etc. Additionally, much of the Old Testiment is derived from Babylonian and Sumarion (sp) mythos.

Believe what you will, but there's little historical evidence for much of what any of us believe.


Please don't take that as an attack...I'd personally love to see more info on the subject. New data = new ideas I believe.

 

[parmandjack]

oh yea,

one more thing...

...as I answer your points, considering my first dismal attempt at cutting and pasting large quantities of text earlier, I will address your points, but then give you a url to take you to much more details, which will explain much better than I can, each point I am addressing... that way you guys can see for yourselves the supporting evidences, and perhaps pursue them further.

.... and guys, whether y'believe it or not, Jesus Loves ya

 

[bignick]

as for the historical evidence...i do find the instance of the ossuary found with the inscription of "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" an interesting side note...

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I believe there was a debate on the age of the inscription, but my be remembering wrong.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Monterey Jack (just letting you know):

All of your "confirmed," prophecies rest ujpon unproved and unprovable assumptions about Jesus' divinity.

Since you mentioned your kids, you might want to consider just how repugnant it is to some of us to read that, "the Jews did this," or, "the Jews did that." Gross, dude.

The arrogance of some Christians never fails to amaze me. If I were the Big Kahuna, and I weren't busy with intelligent planets, I'd be notin' those presumptuous enough to make claims about what I had in mind.

But the big question: why do you need the tools of science and reason to confirm your faith? Looks like either you've bought into the modern world, or are shaky about your beliefs.

Cheeze-louise. Read some Henry Vaughan ("I saw Eternity the other Night..."), some Gerald Manley Hopkins ("My heart is stirred by the grandeur of God/It will shine out, like sun from shook foil...") some John Donne, fer crissake, willya?

'Course, dem old Debbil moon can quote Scripture...

 

[bignick]

I believe there was a debate on the age of the inscription, but my be remembering wrong.

i believe you are right...but i never heard on the results of that debate...anyone hear anything else about this?

 

[Mark Weiser]

I will state to you an absoulte fact there are Orthodox Rabbis that would have a heart attack if you used the words Jews and Jesus in the same sentence in reference to him being the Messiah.

Maaa Get out the Heavy Torah from the Synagouge we are going to squash these pesky varmits LOL LOL!!

 

[parmandjack]

Dear Ronald McDonald, I mean R. McRobertson (Just letting you know I can do it too)..

I was on another thread guys (I think it was the proof of higher power one), someone had asked me why I converted and I was explaining it.. then as I'm heading to bed I thought I'd quickly stop in and see what points you may have brought up so i could start preparing stuff tomorrow... and I saw my buddies "offended" post below... so I thought i'd quickly address his points, then tomorrow will start at the beginning of the thread with your points.

Dear Monterey Jack (just letting you know):

All of your "confirmed," prophecies rest ujpon unproved and unprovable assumptions about Jesus' divinity.

I'll cover this when I get back to this point in the thread - but this raises a question in my mind... if you are a religious Jew, on what information do you base your faith? And if you are, how can YOU prove YOUR assumptions to be true? Wouldn't your paperwork be theoretically as unproved and unprovable as mine? or anyone elses for that matter? including those who hold to the belief in the theory of evolution? - chew on that - but I'll expect you to defend and answer that point if you are in fact religious.

Since you mentioned your kids, you might want to consider just how repugnant it is to some of us to read that, "the Jews did this," or, "the Jews did that." Gross, dude.

Just so you know, it is very repugnant to some of us that some of you thin skinned types take offense at any opportunity for items that are as irrelevent as a mouse in a field who may happen to fart in your direction... For some reason, I've noticed through other threads, that you seem to take offense very very quickly, no matter what is said.. well I take offense to you taking offense to me so lets stop all this I'm offended crap...and discuss this like adults... would you prefer I did this "j-w"? ...too bad.. its not gonna happen... oh and by the way, my children will know what the word Jew means, as well as a whole spectum of other words, don't bother inferring anythign else into the discussions about their upbringing.

If you're a Jew, then you're a Jew, if you're a Christian, then you're a Christian, if you're a Muslim, then you're a Muslim, if you're an Atheist then you're an Atheist... get the picture? they are none offensive and none dirty words, unless the meaning is twisted by people like yourself who try to infer something other than what was originally intended... so..deal with it...if you cannot discuss this without complaining and being all "offended" about everything, then I'll just chalk it up to your being incapable of discussing something without your emotions getting in the way, and ignore your comments on this thread.

And just so YOU know, I am a friend of Israel (I guess some people call us Christian Zionists these days), and support "EXODUSII", buying airline tickets for Jewish immigrants to move home to Israel (the re-gathering if you will, correction of the diaspora)...look it up my friend... you're barking at the wrong guy.

The arrogance of some Christians never fails to amaze me. If I were the Big Kahuna, and I weren't busy with intelligent planets, I'd be notin' those presumptuous enough to make claims about what I had in mind.

LOL... where did you get that I make claims as to what He is thinking? I read the bible and therefore know what He has told us.. thats it, no more ! oh and I guess I should take offense at being called a Christian right about here right? I mean, you did about being called a Jew.

But the big question: why do you need the tools of science and reason to confirm your faith? Looks like either you've bought into the modern world, or are shaky about your beliefs.

LOL - wrong on both accounts... is having faith mutually exclusive to wanting knowledge? You demand proofs for my position... and even though I have pure faith in Jesus, I attempt to answer your request for proofs, then when I attempt to provide you with proof, you then assault the strength of my faith by stating that I'm either weak in it or believe in the world, which is the reasons for my needing proof?!?!?! thats funny circular logic...

So what do you want? should I just say then that I believe, then shut up? If i did that you'd ask me why i believe.. then when I can give you evidences for that belief, you'd tell me to shut up 'cause my faith is weak!

whew...

Anyways, I would prefer that antagonism and personal attacks were not part of this discussion... can we keep it that way?

I have a lot of cool stuff for you all to see as we go forward...

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I thought the Ronald McDonald and Monteray Jack comments were funny, but otherwise, this is gonna get ugly.

Parmanjack, I belive bignick already pointed this out, but when trying to prove a document, it's generally not wise to rely upon the document to prove itself. Specifically, calling upon events from the Bible to prove events in the Bible is quite foolish. It would be better if you actually correlated some of the predictions with verifiable events in the real world.

G'night.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

LOL... where did you get that I make claims as to what He is thinking? I read the bible and therefore know what He has told us.. thats it, no more !

Others read the Bible and see the writings of Jewish priests. No more.


Anyways, I would prefer that antagonism and personal attacks were not part of this discussion... can we keep it that way?

Probably not, given the topic of discussion.

I have a lot of cool stuff for you all to see as we go forward...

Sounds like you're going Evangelical on us. Do you honestly think you can introduce anything here that people haven't seen before?


Regards,


Steve

 

[michaeledward]

Wow, there is so much that is offensive in this post, and it has nothing to do with religion, just arrogance and prejudice. I will point out a specific parts of your post with letters, and respond to them below.

Dear Ronald McDonald, .....

A). . . . .but this raises a question in my mind... if you are a religious Jew, on what information do you base your faith? And if you are, how can YOU prove YOUR assumptions to be true?. . . .

B). . . . . . Just so you know, it is very repugnant to some of us that some of you thin skinned types take offense at any opportunity . . . . . .

C) . . . . . If you're a Jew, then you're a Jew, ... they are none offensive and none dirty words, unless the meaning is twisted by people .... who try to infer something other than what was originally intended...

D) . . . . . I am a friend of Israel and support "EXODUSII", buying airline tickets for Jewish immigrants to move home to Israel (the re-gathering if you will, correction of the diaspora)

A) - It seems that you are making an assumption as to Robert's belief system, and once that assumption is made, it is poisoning the rest of your thought process. If you are looking to gain knowledge, as you suggest, it is best to discard such assumptions as soon as they manifest.

B) - Here is the first representation of your assumption leading you astray. Perhaps, it would be helpful if you learned a little bit of history concerning the Jewish people. You may recall something called 'World War II', in which, persecution of the Jewish people reached a horrible nadir, with some 6 million being executed. Of course, some believe that these people were killed because of what the "Jews did".

C) - While there is certainly nothing offensive about any person being any faith, it is offensive to some that others must display their 'superiority' of the 'Jews' ... which leads us right back to the History of the World, Part I, you remember, 'The Holocaust'.

D) - And here your argument becomes complete. You support bringing all the Jews back together. Can we speculate on Why? Oh, yeah, if we look to the Bible, there is an insanity induced chapter called 'Revelation', in which all the Jews are going to come back together and die. So much for the 'No greater love hath a man but this, that he lay down his life for another", eh? With friends like that, who needs enemies.

Mike

 

[SenseiBear]

but this raises a question in my mind... if you are a religious Jew, on what information do you base your faith? And if you are, how can YOU prove YOUR assumptions to be true? Wouldn't your paperwork be theoretically as unproved and unprovable as mine? or anyone elses for that matter? including those who hold to the belief in the theory of evolution? - chew on that - but I'll expect you to defend and answer that point if you are in fact religious.

I expect they would be. That is the thing about religions and God - you have to have FAITH, cause there is no PROOF.

... is having faith mutually exclusive to wanting knowledge? You demand proofs for my position... and even though I have pure faith in Jesus, I attempt to answer your request for proofs, then when I attempt to provide you with proof, you then assault the strength of my faith by stating that I'm either weak in it or believe in the world, which is the reasons for my needing proof?!?!?! thats funny circular logic...

YOU introduced the proof idea with this topic. No one came to you demanding proof. So AFTER you definitively prove your topic, then ask others for their proof. Otherwise you are just avoiding the issue by counter-attacking.

Anyways, I would prefer that antagonism and personal attacks were not part of this discussion... can we keep it that way?

I have a lot of cool stuff for you all to see as we go forward...

I keep hearing this. and I keep asking you to produce it. You keep ignoring. I'm still waiting for proof.

 

[Mathusula2]

Man, I've been lurking for a while, I really didn't want to post on this.
Look, I'm a Christian and have to agree with Big Nick on this whole matter... the definition of faith itself implies there is not tangible proof. If you want to quote the bible to show our faith supports that statement, one only has to understand where the phrase "doubting Thomas" came from, where Jesus said, "blessed be those who have not seen, yet still believe". Anyways, enough of that.

Parmandjack, I have to say this is exactly why I do not associate with the evangelist types, such as your own. If I were not Christian, and were reading your posts, I would probably dismiss Christianity as a crock. You obviously have no idea as to how you come across -- evangelism is supposed to be about inviting people to your beliefs, not badgering them and condemning them.

To the others on this thread and the 15 pager that preceded it, please understand that Parmandjack DOES NOT represent true Christianity... he lacks most of all, humbleness.

To michaeledward who implied Christianity was behind the holocaust, it was HITLER... a truely deranged and mad man who murdered 6 million mostly jews... my grandfather was in a nazi death camp, and he was a Catholic Sicilian. While we weep for that tragedy, remember that that was NOT CHRISTIAN.

One last thing... I don't know if any of you like Comedians, but I love Lewis Black (a jew, btw) who made me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. He said," Jerry Fallwell had stated God had talked to him and told Jerry that he let 911 happen because of homosexuals and femanists... that's funny, 'cause God called me up 12 hours earlier and told me that 911 happened because of people like Jerry Fallwell." I'm laughing as I type this, and I hope it doesn't lose most of its effect trough this wonderful medium.

Peace

 

[michaeledward]

To michaeledward who implied Christianity was behind the holocaust, it was HITLER... a truely deranged and mad man who murdered 6 million mostly jews... my grandfather was in a nazi death camp, and he was a Catholic Sicilian. While we weep for that tragedy, remember that that was NOT CHRISTIAN.

First, welcome, and thanks for stepping out of the closet, so to speak.

Second, I did not mean in any way to imply that 'Christianity' was behind the holocaust, and if that's what I said I apologize.

What I meant to say, or if your prefer, imply, is that the Holocaust happened because people felt superior to the Jewish people; they were not part of the 'Master Race'.

I was linking the holocaust generating superiority complex to parmajacks' comments.
I was not linking parmajack's superiority complex to Naziism.

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Previous Discussion on Historical Jesus
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10609

 

[Flatlander]

So let me get this straight!!!

....just as the discussion is starting, you jump right in swinging both fists declaring that you cannot imagine a more rediculous endeavour? and then further state that this forum is only for logical debate! are you stating then that debating FOR the Bible is automatically illogical and therefore does not give me the right, perhaps as a second class citizen, to hold and discuss that position?

OK, I've thought about this all morning. Maybe I did come on a little heavy there, and if you took offense, I apologise. Here's what I think.

I think that I was a little annoyed that in the previous thread (Proof of a higher power), you tended not to actually debate what was being said, rather, you came off a bit preachy. That bothered me a bit.

Secondly, I think that using the bible to prove its own validity or accuracy is fallacious at the onset, ergo I referred to it as a ridiculous endeavour. However, if you are now able to provide proof of the Bible's accuracy using real world evidence, I'm open to hear it.

As a "moderator" thats not quite the "moderate" position I would expect you to hold.. seeing as how as a moderator, you are supposed to maintain an impartiality due to your position as a "moderator"... especially considering many other of the "un-imaginably more ridiculous endeavour's" I have noted through many other strings throughout the site.

I moderate only the Study and the JKD forum, and so am mainly unconcerned with things you may have said elsewhere. It is my job, however, to help everyone play nice. This is a topic that is almost guaranteed to fire up some emotions. If we can all remain civil, we may accomplish something. Let's see.

As for being left with a fools reputation? you imagine incorrectly that your opinion of me matters!

My opinion of you doesn't matter. Actually, I haven't formed one yet. In the study, what you say and how you present it will tend to follow you around for awhile. Credibility can be gained or lost. I was trying to warn you of that fact, however badly I may have put it. Once again, my apologies.

Now if others care to discuss this string, as I questioned at the start, lets go.. but don't for one minute think that I will not use the bible and history to support my position, regardless of whether or not you decide it is "preaching".

There is a clear difference between preaching and debating. Don't be preaching, because that's all talking and no listening. If you can remain open to the logic behind the arguments which refute your position, you'll come off as less preachy. Once again, let's see.

In your position of "Moderator", I would like to see you address your above "Warning" to those who will take a position opposite to mine, as quickly as you did to me.

Believe me, they already know that I will, should the need arise.

Thank you very much for so quickly biasing the discussion against the validity of the Bible, with your "attempt" at moderation... thats pretty fair minded of you.

Bear in mind, please, that Moderators are people too. I am entitled to my opinion, and if you look around at some of the other topics, I express it when I want to. This is a topic that I've pondered for a long time, and have some pretty clear opinions on. So if I take a Mod action, it will look quite official. Otherwise, it is an expression of my opinion. It's a difficult line to walk, but I live on the edge.

So, I await your discussion. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Side Note: Staff when acting in an official capacity will indicate such. Otherwise, they have a right to express their own opinion. They are required to sign those official actions in a manner similar to the below.

Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk Owner and Technical Administrator.

 

[kenpo tiger]

We did not kill Christ - Mel Gibson notwithstanding - historically shown that the Romans did.

I will not comment on what other conclusions were drawn from your statement concerning your support of Exodus II and aliyah (return to the homeland) for Jews. We as a people yearn for return to what we consider our homeland (no sidebars about Palestinians - another time, another thread, please). Indeed, we say it as part of the Passover service - Next year in Jerusalem. That it would be a fulfillment of a dastardly prophecy is not in our belief structure.

Just by-the-by. Have you ever visited Israel? Fascinating place. You could even see the Dead Sea Scrolls there... in the Israel Museum, hard by Yad VaShem, the Holocaust memorial. Ever been there, or to the one in our nation's capital?

What you ARE compelling me to do is recall my many many years of Hebrew school lessons - and yes, I was Bat Mitzvah. In fact, my Torah commentary is next to me on the desk. And THAT is what proves my beliefs to me. That I still find my religion and religious training cogent to my daily life.

One other thing. The 'lines' of Isaac and Jacob to which you refer are really one in the same: we are descendants of Abraham. Read Exodus and all those 'begats'. In fact, the Moslems trace themselves back exactly the same way.