Bible proven by Fulfilled Prophecies

[kenpo tiger]

heh.

Recent discussion I had suggested that each version of the christian bible was only an inaccurate reflection of gods words, and to truely understand them, you must 'listen to the silence between the notes, found only in your own heart'. That those writen words are close, but not exact, due to the 'hearing defects' in those who wrote them down, and 'vision defects' in those who have translated them.

Now, what I have to wonder is, are there different 'versions', translations, etc of other religions holy books?

Kaith,
I'd be willing to bet there are. It's like anything else. One passes along one's knowledge according to one's understanding of it. Therefore, interpretation does happen. KT

 

[Mark Weiser]

Kaith I am impressed with your statement. The Rabbis that I have talked with have mentioned this very line of thought. Congrats!!

 

[parmandjack]

The link that parmandjack provided appears to be the reference for his argument, containing all the figures which he used.

...actually flatlander, that url was not the reference for my figures, it just happened to contain some of them also... i presented it because I liked some of the other statements it presented. You will find those figures readily available at hundreds of sites... and will also note, that no "modern" scholar, philosopher etc... even attempts to refute those facts, as they are common knowledge and would be easily refuted if they were made up. But they haven't been denied by critics or skeptics who actually know...

It is by no means a proof, as the justifications are weak and illogical.

...proof of what? that the bible is more solidly documented than other ancient texts?.. well I put to you that the evidence is in front of you stating otherwise... and agreed upon by by sides.

...I can only present the facts to you as they are... only you can decide what to do with them once you have them in front of you...

One line particularly struck me, a reference to the men who wrote the various books of the bible: The argument itself admits there is an "either", as opposed to an "is" or "was".

...exactly.. and the same argument as Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic.. or exactly who he claimed to be....

By no means concrete enough for me to change my entire belief structure.

...how much supporting evidence would then be enough for you showing that the bible has not been corrupted... at some point in time, you have to simply confess that you simply will not accept a fact, regardless of amount of evidence in front of you.

Is it possible that in accepting the bible as literal truth, the message of Jesus has been missed?

...good question...but i don't believe so, and I dont believe so because the Bible is Gods revelation to us, and Jesus is God, thereby He gave us exactly what He wanted us to know...I don't believe that an omnipotent creator sitting up there would be slapping his knees and chuckling over intentionally injecting confusion into a text he gave us... and then basing our salvation on whether we corectly "re-interpreted it"

 

[parmandjack]

I just want you to know, I don't even know where to start. There is so much, that is so wrong with your statements. I find it very scary.

...not knowing where to start is quite ok michael ... but make a blanket statement like that and then not backing it up is not. You would have a difficul time disproving those numbers, which is why no skeptics can or do... the count is in regardling the manuscripts, the numbers are correct... contrary to you stement.

Enjoy your beliefs ....

...thank you, and you yours also.

I really don't want to live in your world.

..you have that option...God gave you free will my friend... the choice and right to do so is yours, and who am i to argue... have a wonderful life my friend.

 

[Mark Weiser]

and I dont believe so because the Bible is Gods revelation to us, and Jesus is God, thereby He gave us exactly what He wanted us to know

This is the main conflict between Jewish and Christians. Judaism does not accept any portion that Jesus was or is the Messiah. If in fact they accept that he even existed they may say that he was killed due to the polictial climate in which he lived.

Caesar which claimed to be divine and the only source for power would not tolerate a man running around his empire claiming to be God. The People in charge of that piece of Land would have known this and would have done everything in his power to keep his own head. So he had to stop this from getting out of hand.

Traditionally the Jewish People when rebellion was the order of the day usually tried to overthrow the oppessor during this time of the year. The Romans knew this due to Historical records. So let us put two and two together. Interesting point to ponder. Some Jewish Scholars think if he existed he would have been a good or even a great Rabbi during his time.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Parmandjack:

I suppose, then, you could point out the person that has proven the Bible to be truthful? Because as famous as you claim that someone who disproved the Bible would be, I'll betcha that someone who proved the Bible true would be quite more famous. Especially among the Christian fundamentalist; they'd probably elevate him to near-messiac levels.

 

[AaronLucia]

Hasn't Jesus already proved the Bible is true?

 

[parmandjack]

Did you read Mark's entry upthread? Also, HardheadJarhead's regarding the Greeks,

.. yes I did... always an fun and interesting read that stuff...

...just common sense and logic, which both of these gentlemen have in abundance. Just read their posts elsewhere.

...of their abilities i have no doubt

I doubt any of the men participating in this debate are attacking you personally. This coterie of debaters tends to get a bit testy when they respond to posts they disagree with. That doesn't mean they hate you, just that they've temporarily placed their manners aside (or taken the gloves off, whichever you prefer).

... i can accept this...

Personally, I find what you have to say interesting in that it presents a viewpoint I'm not normally privy to. We don't have many like you in the East, especially NY.

...that thump you heard was me falling on the floor in shock... thats a nice refreshing statement you make, thank you.

...I find it curious that you (and they) are so passionate about your personal beliefs that everyone should share them. Why, if it's enough for you to know that you aren't going straight to Hell with the rest of us?

... well... this one is easy, and is actually for two reasons...

First of all Jesus "commands" His followers to go in to the world and spread his Word.... this though, is a truth of the bible that most christians choose not to notice or accept, because it makes them feel uncomfortable, and puts them into a position of conflict with an unbelieving society... therefore, you see many posts (or voices in real life) stating that this person or that person doesnt represent true christianity etc... simply because they are evangelising and spreading God Word, something which they were commanded to do...

The second reason is love... and I know this one will take a lot of heat from numerous people, but think of it like this.... if i don't believe in Jesus, or the bible, but instead am an avid participating member of our modern humanistic society, i really don't care what happens to you in the afterlife, if there was one at all...blah blah blah as long as I and you life a "good life" and don't hurt anybody, etc.. (but thats for another thread), ..... BUT.... because I DO believe in Jesus and what the bible sez.... I do care about your afterlife....WHY? well... if my belief is correct... then what God is offering is the single most fantastic thing in the myriads of universes he "may" have created (my injection there for emphasis)...and the wonders of it are totally unimaginable and incomprehensible to man even with the descriptions of New Jerusalem in the Bible... and then taking this further... if the life we are going to have after this one is true, as God states in the bible... then why wouldnt I want YOU to have it also? AS you can see, it is because true born-again christians (who have Jesus within them) love you, that they/we/I want to tell you about our faith.. so that all of you don't miss out and can share in its wonder also...etc... we are excited about the future and want to share it with everyone....

Kinda long answer, and probably not articulated as well as it should be.. but thats the gist...

I asked you earlier if you've ever visited the Holy Land. As a true believer in your faith, it would be (assuming you have not) an experience for you to walk the Via Dolorosa and visit Gesthemene and Bethlehem. I lived there and those places were part of my everyday experience, along with those of my faith. It was inspiring to actually see the places mentioned in both Bibles.

...s'funny you brought this up again.. I actually remembered this question after i turned off my computer... but figured I'd wait until next time on line...

No we haven't been there yet... but boy are we chompin at the bit to do so... we are planning on going with an organized tour group.... but with two young babes (2 years and the other 7 months) travel for another couple of years is not in the picture... But yes, we can't wait to get there. I did at one point in time, try to convince my wife that we should move there permanently... but.. instead, we are now sitting up in Canada...oh well :ultracool

So, Revelations says we're all going to return to Ha-Eretz (The Land, literally translated), build the temple for yet another time in order to have it destroyed. That wasn't quite the way it was taught to me. Please explain the logic behind this prophecy. It intrigues me. KT

...well... if your wondering the "why's" of why God is doing this, I can't tell you what God's reasoning is other than what he tells us in the bible.

...basically though, as you have read, it is a time of re-gathering of His people in to their land (His Land). The numerous parts of this prophecy are to be a sign to all peoples of His strength, and to call as many of them to himself... he allowed his people to be scattered thousands of years ago, and is now, despite much world opinion and efforts to the contrary, is gathering them back again and given them again their holy language (the re-birth of israel as prophesied thousands of years ago, and is one of the most astonishing things to happen in history. This is a sign of his control to all the world, again calling his people to himself. Furthermore, he will allow the temple to be rebuilt, and then allow the enemy to take it over. This again, is to show himself to his people, because this act, will display for all the peole of israel that this "false-messiah" who sits in the temple is actually the abomination... which was fortold long ago.. this is another obvious sign to his peole and a call to them to accept him. This abomination will be the very person who arises out of the revived roman empire to coordinate a 7 years peace treaty with israel. (its interesting to note here the re-gathering and revival of the holy roman empire (which never died) "aka" European Union, at the very same time in history that Israel was re-born and the jewish peole are regathering in their very own land once again...hmmm...)...I could talk a lot more on this topic.. but for now....

Anyway, this regathering, temple building etc... is Gods love for his people in showing them once and for all, in front of the whole modern world, that He is in charge, so that as many as possible will accept Him as He presents himself to us...

There are many more items conencted with this we could discuss, but I hope I got the basic idea behind it all...and again.. WHY did GOD choose to do it this way? I have no idea.. except for what He chooses to tell us in the bible...

I hope this helps you KP.

Jack.

 

[parmandjack]

Parmandjack:

I suppose, then, you could point out the person that has proven the Bible to be truthful? Because as famous as you claim that someone who disproved the Bible would be, I'll betcha that someone who proved the Bible true would be quite more famous. Especially among the Christian fundamentalist; they'd probably elevate him to near-messiac levels.

...unless I'm mistaken RP, I think you've missed the point, and that is that the BIBLE ITSELF has proven itself to be truthful (and GOD made it that way).... unless of course, that you can definitively prove, with actual verifiable evidences showing where the bible is false, the only other option is that it is true... just like a court of law.. innocent until proven guilty... therefore by extrapolation... true until proven false.. and that has not happened in 2000 years of constant attacks by people much smarter that you or I. Furthermore, modern scientific investigation and archeology etc.. are constantly finding informaitn that further supports the bibles accuracy... and which was writtne thousands of years ago...

I have provided information which clearly and undeniably shows that the bible is the most verifiably accurate manuscript in existance, meaning that it has not changed etc...it is then up to you to disprove this, and 2000 years of trying has thus far been unsuccessful.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Hasn't Jesus already proved the Bible is true?

Whhheeerrghhh?!?? I'm sorry, I don't follow that.

AS you can see, it is because true born-again christians (who have Jesus within them)

It is statements like this that concern me. I do not appreciate someone telling me "I am saved, you are not", like they received a "get out of jail free" card, and as long as I say the right words, I too can have that card, or a membership to the club. And, as a Christian, I have no desire to say that to other people. That means I am presuming to know how GOD will judge others, and I cannot know that, and it is arrogant to think that.

I think being a Christian (or, in fact, a member of any faith) requires daily practice and committment. And it's not easy. That doesn't mean the journey isn't worth it (kind of like MA in that way), but to say, "I'm in, you're out" doesn't sit well with me. Do my or your or someone else's actions not matter, then? Our intent as to how we go through life? If a born-again Christian passes a homeless person on the street and does not try to feed them or care for them, but a Jewish person or Buddist or Muslim does - who is actually living the way we are told to in the parable of the good Samaritan, for example?

I understand that you want to spread your faith because it gives you happiness. I respect that. But I do not understand the means. The best form of prostelytizing, I think, is by being a good person, and "leading by example". I don't want someone to convert to Orthodoxy out of fear, or exclusion, but out of willingness and love.

My $0.02.

ETA:

just like a court of law.. innocent until proven guilty... therefore by extrapolation... true until proven false.. and that has not happened in 2000 years of constant attacks by people much smarter that you or I.

That's not how it works, at least in science. Things aren't true until proven false.

All this "proving" is also getting under my skin. Faith is an issue, after all, as well. And I haven't seen "proof" offered. Referring to nameless people who must be smarter than any of us doesn't help, either.

 

[bignick]

...unless I'm mistaken RP, I think you've missed the point, and that is that the BIBLE ITSELF has proven itself to be truthful (and GOD made it that way).... unless of course, that you can definitively prove, with actual verifiable evidences showing where the bible is false, the only other option is that it is true... just like a court of law.. innocent until proven guilty... therefore by extrapolation... true until proven false.. and that has not happened in 2000 years of constant attacks by people much smarter that you or I.

I have provided information which clearly and undeniably shows that the bible is the most verifiably accurate manuscript in existance, meaning that it has not changed etc...it is then up to you to disprove this, and 2000 years of trying has thus far been unsuccessful.

honestly...this is some of the most round-about logic i've ever heard..."innocent until proven guilty" does not apply here...there is just as much burden on you to prove the Bible is true as their is on your opponents to disprove it. Events that happened 2000 years ago are almost impossible to prove or disprove one way or the other..once again, saying the Bible proves the Bible is ridiculous.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There is no proof that -any- particular faith is 'right'. That is why it is 'faith'.

My own faith predates all 3 of those mentioned here, whose traditions, names, and ideas have been adopted by those now in the 'dominant' position.

There is no historical proof that Jesus existed outside the Christian bible.
There is no historical proof (that I am aware of) that Moses existed.
Many stories (flood, creation, etc) have a great deal of things in common with older myths from Babylon and Sumaria.
The story of Noah has not been proven, the ark a rumor, not a fact.

One can not use the bible to prove any of this. One must turn to other sources.

For example:
Why is Jesus' birthday celebrated in December, when all biblical scholars who have investigated the astrological events reported indicate he would have been born in October? When did this event actually occur? Who were the historical governmental figures at that time, and do they coincide with those stories in the bible? When was the census actually done? Does that also correlate with both the reported astrological signs as well as the govermental information previously determined?

Upon examining the true historical evidence, and comparing it with that writen in holy scripture, do they equal, or is there a discrepency? If so, why? Can it be that it is all a fiction, a mythos based on even earlier legends and the prophacies of the region? If that is so, does it in fact actually invalidate that deeply held belief, or is it true that "Faith Manages"?

I have done some research into this, discussed things with biblical scholars, preachers, priests and "born again's." If you examine the thread I listed above, you'll find much of that information.

To argue this point, one must reach beyond and tap historical fact. One cannot depend on just the one, however good it may be. (Also, refering to "The Christ Commission" by Og Mandino doesn't count either. It is an excellent book, and I highly recomend it, however it is not 'proof' in this case.)

:asian:

 

[parmandjack]

It is statements like this that concern me. I do not appreciate someone telling me "I am saved, you are not", like they received a "get out of jail free" card, and as long as I say the right words, I too can have that card, or a membership to the club.

..ok feisty... so as a "christian, you believe the very source of your salvation to be lieing?

Jesus Himself said in John 3:3-83In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

So... given that (amongst other verses)... whixh part of the bible do you base your claim to christianity on, and how do you know the part you chose is correct and not someother part?

And, as a Christian, I have no desire to say that to other people. That means I am presuming to know how GOD will judge others, and I cannot know that, and it is arrogant to think that.

...again.. you are saying that Jesus was arrogant and by implication, wrong, by his above statement, as well as his statement when hew declared:

"...I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6.

Unfortunatley, those who would rather believe anything but the "truth", will find their own "way" to explain "life", and that, feisty, seems to be the category you fall into...

I think being a Christian (or, in fact, a member of any faith) requires daily practice and committment. And it's not easy. That doesn't mean the journey isn't worth it (kind of like MA in that way), but to say, "I'm in, you're out" doesn't sit well with me. Do my or your or someone else's actions not matter, then? Our intent as to how we go through life? If a born-again Christian passes a homeless person on the street and does not try to feed them or care for them, but a Jewish person or Buddist or Muslim does - who is actually living the way we are told to in the parable of the good Samaritan, for example?

I understand that you want to spread your faith because it gives you happiness. I respect that. But I do not understand the means. The best form of prostelytizing, I think, is by being a good person, and "leading by example". I don't want someone to convert to Orthodoxy out of fear, or exclusion, but out of willingness and love.

...and with the above, you highlight again that your beliefs are not biblically based, considering that everything in your above statement referst o your "good works"..

...and again, this is clearly in total contradiction to the bible and Jesus, which states:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

Once again, I put to you, base your belief in being a christian on what teh bible actually sez, not what you would liek it to say...

But this "I'm a christian and your not" stuff is way off topic... please stay focused...

That's not how it works, at least in science. Things aren't true until proven false.

not so... the "theory" of evolution and how it is presented quickly refutes your statement...

but that again is off topic at this point...

All this "proving" is also getting under my skin. Faith is an issue, after all, as well. And I haven't seen "proof" offered. Referring to nameless people who must be smarter than any of us doesn't help, either.

hmmm...if you want to dispute the manuscript evidence, investigate it, don't simply dismiss it out of hand, being a "christian" and all, i'd think that would be solid evidence for bible accuracy and textual validity...

 

[parmandjack]

honestly...this is some of the most round-about logic i've ever heard..."innocent until proven guilty" does not apply here...there is just as much burden on you to prove the Bible is true as their is on your opponents to disprove it. Events that happened 2000 years ago are almost impossible to prove or disprove one way or the other..once again, saying the Bible proves the Bible is ridiculous.

...so bignick, a this point in time I am attwempting to establish the fact that the bible has not been changed, and incontradiction to previous stetement you made actually is quite well document, with lots fo copies etc...

The "round-about" logic, was used as an example, but can go around a little further... simply because you and no one else has as of todays date ... proven teh bible to be incorrect in ANY statement...

Given that fact... I don't know where you are arguing from... what I do see though, is a lot of effort being expended to side step those facts with comments like it is illogical, round-about, etc... but nothing to prove contrary...

tell ya what though, moving forward, Disprove the accuracy and validity of the bible as a document for me... prove the information I provided earier to be wrong... as "christian", I am surprisd at your gleeful attempt to negate the very book that christianity is founded on.. do you and feisty goto the same church".

If it is in general agreement though that none of you can prove the previous information I provided as wrong, then we can move on... but if your just going to sit here and churn water providing no evidence to the contary, then we are wasting our time...

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Please see tha comments by Kaith and big nick which also address the "Bible proves the Bible" problem.

I base my faith on the entire Bible, not snippets here and there (that tends to be a more Protestant way of dealing with the text), and the Mothers and Fathers of the Church and their teachings.

..ok feisty... so as a "christian, you believe the very source of your salvation to be lieing?

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Jesus Himself said in John 3:3-83In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Sounds like baptism to me, and yes, Christians tend to be baptized into their particular faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisty Mouse
And, as a Christian, I have no desire to say that to other people. That means I am presuming to know how GOD will judge others, and I cannot know that, and it is arrogant to think that.

...again.. you are saying that Jesus was arrogant and by implication, wrong, by his above statement, as well as his statement when hew declared:

Wow, way to misinterpret. I'm saying YOU are arrogant, NOT Jesus. Please address my example, rather than putting words into my mouth. If a Christian is standing on a street corner, proclaiming their faith, and across the street, someone else (Christian or non) is helping people and loving their neighbor as they would love themselves, who is acting in the manner that Jesus directed?

Unfortunatley, those who would rather believe anything but the "truth", will find their own "way" to explain "life", and that, feisty, seems to be the category you fall into...

Again, I have no idea what you mean. Because I don't believe as you do, I'm wrong? Nice try.

...and with the above, you highlight again that your beliefs are not biblically based, considering that everything in your above statement referst o your "good works"..

...and again, this is clearly in total contradiction to the bible and Jesus, which states:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

So we should ignore the rest of Jesus's teachings, to do good to one another, and ONLY base our evaluations of each other on faith? This is total selective bias. I'm not saying faith isn't important - I think it is, most certainly. But I think faith and action go hand-in-hand.

But this "I'm a christian and your not" stuff is way off topic... please stay focused...

I never said that. Thanks for the deliberate misinterpretation again. I *am* focused - you simply do not like my argument.

not so... the "theory" of evolution and how it is presented quickly refutes your statement...

How so? Evidence, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisty Mouse
All this "proving" is also getting under my skin. Faith is an issue, after all, as well. And I haven't seen "proof" offered. Referring to nameless people who must be smarter than any of us doesn't help, either.

hmmm...if you want to dispute the manuscript evidence, investigate it, don't simply dismiss it out of hand, being a "christian" and all, i'd think that would be solid evidence for bible accuracy and textual validity...

Look, I have, and I do. YOU are the one coming to this board, telling people something has been proven, and when they question you, offer nothing but general statements.

Thanks for belittling my faith by putting Christian in quotes. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not a Christian. It's means I'm not a "born-again".

 

[michaeledward]

And the hits just keep on comin' ....

I just want to point out what I said before.

I just want you to know, I don't even know where to start. There is so much, that is so wrong with your statements. I find it very scary.
Enjoy your beliefs .... I really don't want to live in your world.

parmajack, if you slow down for a minute or two, and think about how you are doing in that 'command' to spread the 'Word', you might realize, based on the responses you are seeing in this thread, that you are turning people away from your school of belief. So, I guess I would have to ask ... do you think somebody keeps score?

 

[bignick]

...so bignick, a this point in time I am attwempting to establish the fact that the bible has not been changed, and incontradiction to previous stetement you made actually is quite well document, with lots fo copies etc...

The "round-about" logic, was used as an example, but can go around a little further... simply because you and no one else has as of todays date ... proven teh bible to be incorrect in ANY statement...

Given that fact... I don't know where you are arguing from... what I do see though, is a lot of effort being expended to side step those facts with comments like it is illogical, round-about, etc... but nothing to prove contrary...

tell ya what though, moving forward, Disprove the accuracy and validity of the bible as a document for me... prove the information I provided earier to be wrong... as "christian", I am surprisd at your gleeful attempt to negate the very book that christianity is founded on.. do you and feisty goto the same church".

If it is in general agreement though that none of you can prove the previous information I provided as wrong, then we can move on... but if your just going to sit here and churn water providing no evidence to the contary, then we are wasting our time...

The only proof you've provided that your information comes from the Bible itself, which is where you get your information in the first place. Let's see you prove the information you provided earlier to be right using a source outside a religious text, preferably a modern fulfillment of the prophecies as someone requested earlier.

I also don't appreciate having my faith called into question just because I don't agree with your stance on these views...the title of your thread was
Bible proven by Fulfilled Prophecies...

so far the only "prophecies"have been old testament statements proven by new testament statements...i'm not saying the Bible is a baseless book of crazy old mythology...merely that your arguments have little merit.

I believe I read somewhere that you are in the computer field, if you've done any programming you are most likely familiar with the term "recursive definiton" defining something in terms of itself...it can be a useful tool, but unless you provide a way out it just keeps going around and around not doing anything...which is starting to resemble your argument...you want proof that your information is wrong, we want proof that it's right...going back and forth "churning the water" as you state. There are pieces of evidence outside the Bible that offer tantalizing proof of it's validity, the ossuary as i mentioned that contained the inscription with Jesus' name...whether or not it's a hoax or not...there are others...this is what i was hoping for when this thread started a logical debate on trying to prove the Bible by using outside, secondary sources. I've posted this quote twice now, but i think it needs posting again...

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

God gave us the wonderful gift of reason and intelligent thought and analysis, if we cannot use his gifts to question things, what's the point of having them...for me, everytime I question my religion, it makes my faith that much stronger, because there are things science can't explain, no matter how advanced our technology and understanding of the universe has become...

If i never question how can i be truley sure that what i'm doing is right?

 

[pete]

two thousand years later and people still don't get it... the message of jesus is love forgiveness and faith. i ain't gonna quote chapter and verse, but his message was:
love: toss aside all the stuff and live as i do, love one another as i have loved you.
forgiveness: nailed to the cross, he asked his father to forgive all those involved in his toture and death, they know not what they do.
faith: after the resurrection, he said that the blessed are those who believe without actually seeing.

so my question is, why are people so caught up on getting converts through threats of eternal damnation, fire and brimstone, when its all about love? why are ya so caught up on being saved, when all his children are forgiven? why are ya looking to prove something, when it all comes down to faith?

i'm outa here...

pete.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Well Kaith once again dude you are impressing the you know what out of me lol.

If Jesus was born according to historical calenders and timetables to concide with the Passover and his death and resurrection. He (Jesus) would have had to be born during the Feast of Booths. Very Interesting point.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Thank you Pete.... you pretty much said something that has missed alot of folks.

The "Proof" isn't what is important.... it is the message.

Weither we can or can't prove Jesus's existance is irrelivant....but the message that is in that text is.

It doesn't say "Thou shalt be an *******.", "Kill everyone who disagrees" etc.
It's about peace, and love.

and, so I believe are the texts of the Jewish faith, and the Moslem faith.

If we must look for proof, I believe of the 3, only the Moslems can prove their prophet existed...I believe they have the body, as well as that of verified relations, companions, etc. It's definately interesting, ne?