And like I said, it's a poor policy to have. The student should be more concerned with knowing the material, being able to understand and perform it, especially under pressure, not scheduling their next belt test when THEY think they're ready. One word comes to mind for schools like that; McDojo.
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And like I said, it's a poor policy to have. The student should be more concerned with knowing the material, being able to understand and perform it, especially under pressure, not scheduling their next belt test when THEY think they're ready. One word comes to mind for schools like that; McDojo.
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- #83
Put it this way, a person can apply to any college they want, even a really hard college such as Harvard, at their own discretion. It doesn't mean they will get in but a person doesn't need to be told they're allowed to apply to Harvard of whatever just in order to apply. Any Joe Blow can apply to Harvard but getting in is an entirely different story. Same thing with belt tests, at my dojo anybody can apply to test for their next belt but it doesn't mean they will get it, as a matter of fact people fail quite a bit at my dojo as the standards for going up a belt are high, especially for the high level belts they are very high. So my dojo is not a McDojo. Just because anybody can apply to Harvard, although getting in is a different story, does not make Harvard a McCollege.
I think its safe to say we've all, at some point in our training, done that. You're right though...training incorrectly isn't going to help.
We may have to agree to disagree but let me ask you this: What are the benefits of letting the student decide vs. letting the instructor decide? IMHO, I would think that someone who's been training 10yrs, 20yrs, etc, would be a better judge (providing they're actually a quality teacher) of someone's skill level, rather than a newbie to training, who's been at it for a month and 'thinks' they're ready, because they 'know' all the material. There's a big difference between knowing something and actually being able to say they really know it and can make it work.
As for your example...when a student is going to test, wouldn't it make sense to actually really be prepared and stand a very good chance of passing vs the student who thinks they know what they're doing, only to get out there on the floor, and make a fool of themselves? If you were a straight A student in school, you'd probably stand a better chance of getting in Harvard vs someone who's GPA is much lower. Why put yourself thru the embarrassment of getting laughed out the door? Harvard would be a McCollege if they allowed the below average student to get in. Now, as far as the dojo goes....if the inst is actually failing the students, well, good for them if they're not ready. But if they're passing them because they don't want to upset anyone or risk losing a student, sorry, those places are mcdojos. If they're only concerned about the money and nothing else, well......
Agreed.
True. Yet look at some arts out there. The mere mention of the name of the art, makes people call it a mcdojo. You're right...we don't know much about the school in question. Perhaps the OP could provide some info. But, for me, any school that let's the students decide when they're ready, makes be a bit suspect.
It isn't what I would do, but so long as paying doesn't guarantee passage, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. Drivers license tests, SATs, and essentially any athletic tryout amount to testing at a scheduled time. People participate hoping to pass the test, score highly so as to enhance their chances at college entrance, or to make the cut respectively.
At this point, we don't even know what the testing fees are, or if there are any (I think the OP mentioned that there is a fee).
On a side note, I notice that people tend to cry McDojo or are dismissive anytime a grading practice deviates from what they are accustomed to. The comment about "what do you expect from an art where it only takes six years to fourth dan" is dismissive; the poster indicated that he's accustomed to second dan students having something along the lines of three decades in, which in most kyu/dan systems is enough time for a hachidan. Others say that a less than four year TKD student isn't a "real blackbelt," or that TKD schools that promote to black belt in less time are belt factories, ignoring that in Korea, the nation of origin of the art, it only takes one year.
The standards that such posters hold up are fine and I have no criticism of them. But those posters are judging other schools by what they're accustomed to rather than on what is reasonable or what is normative for the art in question.
Sounds like a great way to increase income...
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I'm not sure this is an appropriate analogy. A freshman at Harvard can't become a sophomore because he feels he is ready. He has to complete the coursework and pass the required tests before he moves to the next level. If your school takes applications for enrollment and only accepts the top 9 or 10% of applicants, then the analogy works better.
If Harvard allowed students to bypass levels by paying a fee for a test whenever a student wanted, it might become a McCollege. It certainly wouldn't maintain its current reputation.
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frank raud
Master of Arts
Any Judoka could tell you about the school, Yonezuka is a legend. I don't know if he teaches the karate as well, but the judo is first rate. http://www.cranfordjkc.com/Yonezuka.htm
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When somebody gets denied acceptance at Harvard or any other university they don't get laughed out the door or majorly embarrassed, usually they just get a card in the mail telling them they're not accepted. When people fail belt tests at my dojo they don't get laughed at or embarrassed and while they might be disappointed or let down because they failed, they're not made fun of for it and they usually learn from their failures.
The problem with the instructor deciding when a student can test, especially if its a large dojo with lots of students is that it would be really hard if not impossible for an instructor to keep track of every student's progress. Imagine if you were running a dojo, you have over 100 students, and you have to know by heart where every student's progress level is and in addition to that it keeps changing as students gain progress as they keep working at it. That's why students should choose if they want to sign up for an up coming promotion exam, A sensai could not keep track of everybody.
Nonsense. That's all I have to say. Complete nonsense.
I watch every student in every class. It's not the least bit difficult to keep track of who is about ready to test, or who is going to need a few more months.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I agree. Any instructor who sees the students on a regular basis should have a good idea of individual students strengths and weaknesses.
One of the biggest advantages of regularly scheduled tests is a time frame that instructors and students can follow. It creates a sense of urgency and motivation for students to "get ready" and instructors to "get them ready." Of course, the system can be abused, but that doesn't mean it's a bad system.
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I completely agree. Expecting someone to train to black belt, or proficiency in the basics, and then just sending them out to teach with no prior experience is not reasonable. My teacher has higher belts learn to teach by instructing lower belts and beginning students in small portions of the material. During this process he observes, corrects technique if needed, and gives pointers on teaching. I haven't been to other Genbukan dojos and groups so I don't know if this is universal or if it is just sensei's method. But the high brown belt students are excellent teachers so he must be doing something right.
So I really should have been more clear before.
Personally, I think most of you are making way more out of this than it is. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. I wouldn't do it myself, but so long as promotions aren't tied to payment I think it's fine.
I don't know the reason why the school does it this way. There could be numerous reasons; a lesson to the students about readiness vs. the perception of readiness, getting tired of students asking when they could test, or perhaps he simply prefers that system.
Given what Frank Raud said about the school, it doesn't sound like it's a McDojo.
I don't know the reason why the school does it this way. There could be numerous reasons; a lesson to the students about readiness vs. the perception of readiness, getting tired of students asking when they could test, or perhaps he simply prefers that system.
Given what Frank Raud said about the school, it doesn't sound like it's a McDojo.
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Good to see that your people practice common courtesy when it comes to such things. Indeed, it can be embarassing enough as it is, when a student fails an exam, and someone who would laugh at such an individual doesn't belong in the dojo.
With the exception of the young kids (who are in a separate program), I do know by heart, where every student's progress level is, and this is a dojo that has over 100 people in it.
A sensei should be able to keep track. If he can't keep track of every last student, then that's why he has assistant instructors who can serve as another pair of eyes. Between a senior instructor and his assistant instructors, there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to keep track of every student's progress.
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- #98
Promotion tests at my dojo do cost money. They aren't over the top but you do have to pay a small fee which you don't get back whether or not you pass. Some places charge exorbitant prices for promotion which you get refunded if you don't pass. They then let a student pass even if they to really bad so that they can keep the money. At my place you have to pay a small fee which you don't get back because you're not paying for the rank you're paying for the instructors. You're paying for their time and skill that it takes to test you. So that is why you have to pay to take promotion exams.
I figured that there was a fee, but to clarify, when I say promotions being tied to payment, I mean schools that essentially promote you because you pay rather than because you passed.
I don't think that a fee for grading is necesarilly bad, so long as it isn't being used to financially gouge your students.
I suspect that it is less likely that the sensei has difficulty keeping track than it is a strategy for conflict avoidance; if they sign up for an announced grading, they haven't been denied the opportunity to promote. If they don't pass the test, the sensei can point to their test performance.
As I said, it isn't how I do grading, but I don't see any issues with it.
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