Being tactful and using magic words

[PhotonGuy]

That's the observation… do you know the reason?

Im not a historian on cultural customs so no I don't know the reason.

I didn't say you responded that way, I highlighted that you wanted to respond that way… which you did… and no, that's not the "much better" thing to do… it's a slightly better thing to do. Your social calibration is really, really lacking.

When I was at the store and she made the comment about my birthday I had just spent 8 hours standing out in the sun doing drills and I had been doing that for the last four days, and this was out in the desert where the sun is really hot so I had been really stressed out. That was why I was a bit more fed up about her comment about my birthday and in particular what she said. Also, when I made this original post, on top of having just spent the last four days doing what I described above I had also had a few beers, so that had something to do with why I said what I said in my post. Anyway, while I think its important to be courteous to people its also important to be firm about lines you don't want crossed. And as I said, if you had a birthday on the same day I do and you get comments about it all your life, not to mention the names people sometimes call you such as what she called me you would probably get sick and tired of it too. At the very least, there shouldn't be anything wrong with letting people know that you don't appreciate it.

 

[Cirdan]

Now I don't want you to stress you out or make you paranoid, but if PG was to drop by ... :s471:

Easily dealt with, I`d just have my kiddie orange belts explain to him what shut up and train means until it is time to go home and repeat if he showed up again. It`s an argument he couldn`t refuse.

 

[PhotonGuy]

How about a little empathy and understanding of another's point if view, PG?

To you, that checkout girl is the millionth person to make a banal comment about your birthday.

To her, you are the first person she has met born on that day and her comment is original and witty.

Biting someone's head off for that kind of comment won't change their behaviour regardless if how you say it; they are only human and the comment has already been made.

Requesting that she not comment on your birthday after she has already commented on it just makes you appear irrational and cranky to her.

You really seem to not have an appreciation of how others may see you based on your behaviour. It might be something to think about more.

There are 375 days in a year. Out of the roughly 7 billion people in the world there are no doubt more than a few people who have their birthday on the same day I do. As a matter of fact, the bartender I met today has her birthday on the same day as me. Now, while this woman at the store probably hasn't met all 7 billion people in the world I would bet she has met other people with their birthday on the same day as me. And her comment was anything but original and witty, I have heard it at least a million times before. And while Im not saying I would bite her head off and that while doing so wouldn't change the fact that she already made the comment, I should at least let her know that I don't appreciate her comment. There are tactful ways to do it.

And if I appear I don't have an appreciation as to how others see me based on my behavior, it might very well appear that way with the posts I make here. Some of the stuff I say in these posts I would not say to somebody face to face where they know who I am. That way, I can get feedback here that I wouldn't get face to face, so thanks for the feedback.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Wise words. We don't know what other people are going through, it may have taken that girl a lot of courage to speak to customers, to even take the job, she may be masking heartbreak while being polite to customers. People who work in the retail industry are often treated like dirt, as being lesser people doing a 'menial' job. I make sure that whenever I speak to a shop assistant I look them in the eye and smile and speak politely even if I have to make a complaint. Treat people as you want to be treated yourself, politeness costs nothing, it is the oil that eases our lives everyday.
Be the person who brightens the day for someone even for a few seconds. Think about the bad days you've had when just one smile from a stranger could have made you feel better, Be that stranger who smiles, who knows, you may save a life.

If she is treated like dirt in her job, well she made the choice to take the job in the first place. I didn't make her work at Walmart and neither did anybody else for that matter. And from my experience people in retail are not treated like dirt and I worked at a retail store that was part of a chain of a major hardware corporation. All day long I would help customers load their stuff into their cars, push back shopping wagons from the parking lot, and do other such stuff. Most of the people were very grateful for my help and I even got tipped several times even though we weren't supposed to be tipped. It was a hard job, pushing around wagons and lifting and moving heavy stuff out in the hot sun all day, but it was not the customers that gave me a hard time. So no, from my experience people in retail are not treated like dirt.

And yes politeness is important but you still got to make a complaint if you've got a complaint. You can make a complaint and still be polite, that's what it means to be tactful.

 

[Gnarlie]

I mean the following constructively. You know what I see from your last two posts?

1) I see someone who, when they just miss the bus by a few seconds, does not only miss the bus. They miss the bus on top of all the other stuff that's gone wrong that week.

2) Someone who knows that they are gonna have a bad day when they discover their car battery is flat first thing in the morning. Whole day ruined.

3) Not just that, but someone who treats others based purely on how their own day has gone so far. Which is probably badly, due to points one and two, and bad things always coming in threes.

If you focus outward rather than inward, and view every event only in its isolated context, your life will be much easier and less stressful. Try to appreciate that every person you meet has their own subjective timeline similar to yours. Their timeline is invisible to you, but could be just as negative at any given time. How do you react when people are irrationally short with you?

 

[Chris Parker]

Im not a historian on cultural customs so no I don't know the reason.

So, because you have an issue with hand-shaking, you think that martial artists, in a Western society, should maybe bow to each other instead, as that's what's done in Asian cultures, without even understanding why it's done there? Or why hand-shaking is done in Western culture? And without addressing the idea of how on earth martial artists are supposed to recognise each other in order to determine whether they bow or shake hands?

Can you see the issues with that?

When I was at the store and she made the comment about my birthday I had just spent 8 hours standing out in the sun doing drills and I had been doing that for the last four days, and this was out in the desert where the sun is really hot so I had been really stressed out. That was why I was a bit more fed up about her comment about my birthday and in particular what she said. Also, when I made this original post, on top of having just spent the last four days doing what I described above I had also had a few beers, so that had something to do with why I said what I said in my post. Anyway, while I think its important to be courteous to people its also important to be firm about lines you don't want crossed. And as I said, if you had a birthday on the same day I do and you get comments about it all your life, not to mention the names people sometimes call you such as what she called me you would probably get sick and tired of it too. At the very least, there shouldn't be anything wrong with letting people know that you don't appreciate it.

Completely irrelevant. It really doesn't matter what kind of a day you've had, it doesn't matter how you feel about comments on your birthday, it doesn't matter what day it is, or what "names" you get as a result (I'd be willing to bet that you don't actually get called a name, although I can guess that a name is associated with the date, and it's referenced as a form of joke… and I'd suggest you learn to distinguish between those two occurrences), it doesn't matter what you think about how things should be either. The simple fact is that, while you are right that you can be "firm" about lines you don't want crossed, there are ways to do that that are socially acceptable, and ways that aren't… you, so far in both threads on this type of encounter (here and the hand-shaking one) have shown no ability to determine what they are. That's what you need to understand… frankly, if you behave in real life anywhere close to the way you present yourself here, you will be very socially isolated, and have a miserable life, allowing everyone and everything around you to frustrate and offend you.

That's why I'm saying you need help. You need to learn how to operate socially… right now, you just appear as if you'd come across as a rather self-centred jerk… which is of no benefit to you whatsoever.

Here's a suggestion. Let's throw a random date up there, that might give a name associated… let's say this hypothetical birthday is the 25th December… and people ask if your name is Jesus, or maybe Santa… maybe Kris Kringle… Instead of getting frustrated, acknowledge that, when someone learns the date, they're going to have some comment… it's a natural occurrence (if you want to know the psychology behind it, essentially they're making a connection between the date and their experiences… as the date is an unknown at the beginning, the connection also comes up as a surprise… which is why they offer their comment… in simple terms, they're just responding to what is to them new information)… so you might want to try heading it off… "My birthday? 25th December… my folks considered calling me Jesus, but with the last name "Jones", it was just a bit 80's…", "Sure, my birthday is December the 25th… I get double presents… it's great!", "December 25th. Now it's your turn… are you going the Jesus or Santa route? We'll see if you've got one I haven't heard yet!" (remember to be smiling as you say these!). Of course, you could simply acknowledge their comment in order to move on… just know that it's going to be said, and frankly, deal with it… going back to it to say how you don't want any focus is really just bringing focus back to it, you know… which really just says that it is something you want to bring attention to (as does this entire thread, bluntly, despite your protestations)… so, if you really don't want any attention on it, move past as quickly as possible.

"My birthday is December 25th."
"Really? Were you delivered in a hospital, or did Santa just bring you down the chimney?"
"Ha, you know, I never asked… anyway, what I need is…"

Does that make sense?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Easily dealt with, I`d just have my kiddie orange belts explain to him what shut up and train means until it is time to go home and repeat if he showed up again. It`s an argument he couldn`t refuse.

I know all about what it means to shut up and train but Im not going to get into it because its an argument I can refuse.

 

[Gnarlie]

If she is treated like dirt in her job, well she made the choice to take the job in the first place. I didn't make her work at Walmart and neither did anybody else for that matter.

Nobody forced you to train for 8 hours in the hot sun, make yourself all sweaty and cranky and then take it out on a sales assistant, either....

 

[Chris Parker]

There are 375 days in a year. Out of the roughly 7 billion people in the world there are no doubt more than a few people who have their birthday on the same day I do. As a matter of fact, the bartender I met today has her birthday on the same day as me. Now, while this woman at the store probably hasn't met all 7 billion people in the world I would bet she has met other people with their birthday on the same day as me. And her comment was anything but original and witty, I have heard it at least a million times before. And while Im not saying I would bite her head off and that while doing so wouldn't change the fact that she already made the comment, I should at least let her know that I don't appreciate her comment. There are tactful ways to do it.

I have yet to see any evidence you understand what tact even is.

And if I appear I don't have an appreciation as to how others see me based on my behavior, it might very well appear that way with the posts I make here. Some of the stuff I say in these posts I would not say to somebody face to face where they know who I am. That way, I can get feedback here that I wouldn't get face to face, so thanks for the feedback.

The feedback is only going to be beneficial to you if you learn from it… again, the evidence is not really overwhelming...

If she is treated like dirt in her job, well she made the choice to take the job in the first place. I didn't make her work at Walmart and neither did anybody else for that matter. And from my experience people in retail are not treated like dirt and I worked at a retail store that was part of a chain of a major hardware corporation. All day long I would help customers load their stuff into their cars, push back shopping wagons from the parking lot, and do other such stuff. Most of the people were very grateful for my help and I even got tipped several times even though we weren't supposed to be tipped. It was a hard job, pushing around wagons and lifting and moving heavy stuff out in the hot sun all day, but it was not the customers that gave me a hard time. So no, from my experience people in retail are not treated like dirt.

I'm sorry, if people treat someone in retail like dirt, well, they chose to be there?!?! What the actual hell?!?! Suddenly the choice of job determines how everyone else behaves? The rest, I hardly know where to begin… but that's not what Tez was talking about in retail…

And yes politeness is important but you still got to make a complaint if you've got a complaint. You can make a complaint and still be polite, that's what it means to be tactful.

Why do you have to make a complaint? Because someone, when told your birthday, made a comment? Was it something that other people would consider an insult? Did she say, using the 25th December hypothetical again, something like "Wow, some people get presents… some get coal... how bad were your parents to get you?"

And no, making a complaint "and still being polite" is not what it means to be tactful. At all.

 

[Cirdan]

I know all about what it means to shut up and train but Im not going to get into it because its an argument I can refuse.

No you don`t and I doubt you can. As I have mentioned before letting go of your colossal ego would help with those.


Besides, you need to know the secret handshake to get past the Cobra Viper guard at our dojo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So, because you have an issue with hand-shaking, you think that martial artists, in a Western society, should maybe bow to each other instead, as that's what's done in Asian cultures, without even understanding why it's done there? Or why hand-shaking is done in Western culture? And without addressing the idea of how on earth martial artists are supposed to recognise each other in order to determine whether they bow or shake hands?

Can you see the issues with that?



Completely irrelevant. It really doesn't matter what kind of a day you've had, it doesn't matter how you feel about comments on your birthday, it doesn't matter what day it is, or what "names" you get as a result (I'd be willing to bet that you don't actually get called a name, although I can guess that a name is associated with the date, and it's referenced as a form of joke… and I'd suggest you learn to distinguish between those two occurrences), it doesn't matter what you think about how things should be either. The simple fact is that, while you are right that you can be "firm" about lines you don't want crossed, there are ways to do that that are socially acceptable, and ways that aren't… you, so far in both threads on this type of encounter (here and the hand-shaking one) have shown no ability to determine what they are. That's what you need to understand… frankly, if you behave in real life anywhere close to the way you present yourself here, you will be very socially isolated, and have a miserable life, allowing everyone and everything around you to frustrate and offend you.

That's why I'm saying you need help. You need to learn how to operate socially… right now, you just appear as if you'd come across as a rather self-centred jerk… which is of no benefit to you whatsoever.

Here's a suggestion. Let's throw a random date up there, that might give a name associated… let's say this hypothetical birthday is the 25th December… and people ask if your name is Jesus, or maybe Santa… maybe Kris Kringle… Instead of getting frustrated, acknowledge that, when someone learns the date, they're going to have some comment… it's a natural occurrence (if you want to know the psychology behind it, essentially they're making a connection between the date and their experiences… as the date is an unknown at the beginning, the connection also comes up as a surprise… which is why they offer their comment… in simple terms, they're just responding to what is to them new information)… so you might want to try heading it off… "My birthday? 25th December… my folks considered calling me Jesus, but with the last name "Jones", it was just a bit 80's…", "Sure, my birthday is December the 25th… I get double presents… it's great!", "December 25th. Now it's your turn… are you going the Jesus or Santa route? We'll see if you've got one I haven't heard yet!" (remember to be smiling as you say these!). Of course, you could simply acknowledge their comment in order to move on… just know that it's going to be said, and frankly, deal with it… going back to it to say how you don't want any focus is really just bringing focus back to it, you know… which really just says that it is something you want to bring attention to (as does this entire thread, bluntly, despite your protestations)… so, if you really don't want any attention on it, move past as quickly as possible.

"My birthday is December 25th."
"Really? Were you delivered in a hospital, or did Santa just bring you down the chimney?"
"Ha, you know, I never asked… anyway, what I need is…"

Does that make sense?

As a matter of fact you were right, my birthday is on December 25th, Christmas Day. And no, she did not call me any of the stuff that you mentioned. Rather she called me "Christmas baby," which I have heard before and I am quite sick of it. I am tired about people making comments about my birthday in general but I especially am tired of being called "Christmas baby." Sometimes people get fed up with stuff like that, I once knew this girl with the name Robin and she would get really fed up and offended whenever somebody made a "Batman and Robin," joke about her name because she had been hearing it all her life. And from my experience there are some benefits to being born on Christmas, you do get double the presents and you celebrate Christmas and your birthday all in one day, but the downside of it is that people comment about it because you have a birthday that sticks out. If I had a birthday on an ordinary day, such as July 15 (I don't know if July 15 means anything to anybody, its just a date I came up with at random that as far as I know isn't a holiday) than people would say nothing. But since my birthday is on a major holiday, I get comments about it often when somebody needs to know my DOB for whatever reason such as if Im buying age restricted products. It gets tiring after awhile. And there is a way to let people know that you don't like what they're doing and still be polite about it, thats what being tactful is all about.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Nobody forced you to train for 8 hours in the hot sun, make yourself all sweaty and cranky and then take it out on a sales assistant, either....

I did it because I enjoyed it. It was hard work but I really got a lot out of it and the fact that its so hard is part of what makes it so enjoyable, its a good challenge. And no, I did not take it out on her.

 

[Gnarlie]

I did it because I enjoyed it. It was hard work but I really got a lot out of it and the fact that its so hard is part of what makes it so enjoyable, its a good challenge. And no, I did not take it out on her.

But you used it to justify your mood when dealing with her.

 

[Tez3]

As a matter of fact you were right, my birthday is on December 25th, Christmas Day. And no, she did not call me any of the stuff that you mentioned. Rather she called me "Christmas baby," which I have heard before and I am quite sick of it. I am tired about people making comments about my birthday in general but I especially am tired of being called "Christmas baby." Sometimes people get fed up with stuff like that, I once knew this girl with the name Robin and she would get really fed up and offended whenever somebody made a "Batman and Robin," joke about her name because she had been hearing it all her life. And from my experience there are some benefits to being born on Christmas, you do get double the presents and you celebrate Christmas and your birthday all in one day, but the downside of it is that people comment about it because you have a birthday that sticks out. If I had a birthday on an ordinary day, such as July 15 (I don't know if July 15 means anything to anybody, its just a date I came up with at random that as far as I know isn't a holiday) than people would say nothing. But since my birthday is on a major holiday, I get comments about it often when somebody needs to know my DOB for whatever reason such as if Im buying age restricted products. It gets tiring after awhile. And there is a way to let people know that you don't like what they're doing and still be polite about it, thats what being tactful is all about.

So, what's Christmas? It means nothing to me.

You have people commenting on your birthday, you would prefer they were rude? that they said, stuff you sunshine? People are interacting with you because they want to be friendly and you are complaining? One day you may be very grateful someone spoke to you and you weren't invisible even if you don't particularly like the comments, you will be glad for the humanity of it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

And no, making a complaint "and still being polite" is not what it means to be tactful. At all.

Merriam-Webster defines tactful as, "careful not to offend or upset other people" and it appears to be something that you don't set a good example of, at least not with your posts in Martial Talk. So if that's not what it means to be tactful, than what does it mean?

 

[PhotonGuy]

No you don`t and I doubt you can. As I have mentioned before letting go of your colossal ego would help with those.

As I said, Im not going to get into that because this is an argument I can refuse.

 

[Tez3]

Merriam-Webster defines tactful as, "careful not to offend or upset other people" and it appears to be something that you don't set a good example of, at least not with your posts in Martial Talk. So if that's not what it means to be tactful, than what does it mean?

Try the Cambridge dictionary. "the ability to say or do the right thing without making anyone unhappy or angry: "

Everyone has been very tactful actually, it doesn't mean however we don't tell the truth. Sometimes it's inevitable that someone gets upset or angry because you have to tell the truth but there are tactful ways to say it. If you have to break the news of a death for example you don't go up to a woman and say 'oi missus your old man has just popped his clogs', you break the news tactfully. She's still going to be upset maybe even angry but you told her in as kind a way as possible. So when we speak to you we don't say 'look you stupid plonker wind your neck in, you're so up your own backside it's not funny' do we? we tell you in a polite way that you allow your ego to rule you.

 

[Chris Parker]

As a matter of fact you were right, my birthday is on December 25th, Christmas Day.

No kidding…

And no, she did not call me any of the stuff that you mentioned.

Again, no kidding… not everyone is as witty as I am…

Rather she called me "Christmas baby," which I have heard before and I am quite sick of it. I am tired about people making comments about my birthday in general but I especially am tired of being called "Christmas baby."

That's not a name, you realise… it's an observation. You are a baby that was delivered on Christmas… a Christmas baby… you're not being "called" it, again, they're just making a connection themselves…

Sometimes people get fed up with stuff like that, I once knew this girl with the name Robin and she would get really fed up and offended whenever somebody made a "Batman and Robin," joke about her name because she had been hearing it all her life.

Yeah, and I get Christopher Robin, I get Peter Parker, I get crispy (Chris P.)… deal with it.

You got born on a noticeable day… and other people live unsure if they're going to eat that day or not…

And from my experience there are some benefits to being born on Christmas, you do get double the presents and you celebrate Christmas and your birthday all in one day, but the downside of it is that people comment about it because you have a birthday that sticks out. If I had a birthday on an ordinary day, such as July 15 (I don't know if July 15 means anything to anybody, its just a date I came up with at random that as far as I know isn't a holiday) than people would say nothing. But since my birthday is on a major holiday, I get comments about it often when somebody needs to know my DOB for whatever reason such as if Im buying age restricted products. It gets tiring after awhile.

None of that means anything.

And there is a way to let people know that you don't like what they're doing and still be polite about it, thats what being tactful is all about.

No, it isn't. Being tactful is about understanding the social situation, and acting in a way that causes no, or minimalist disruption. Nothing you've suggested fits that bill.

 

[Cirdan]

As I said, Im not going to get into that because this is an argument I can refuse.

Yes I can clearly see see that now, crystal. You make such a strong argument for not getting into an argument I really have to stand corrected.

 

[Chris Parker]

Merriam-Webster defines tactful as, "careful not to offend or upset other people" and it appears to be something that you don't set a good example of, at least not with your posts in Martial Talk. So if that's not what it means to be tactful, than what does it mean?

Son, I'm not here to be tactful. I do strive to be so, within the needs of the communication itself, but my reason for being here is more about imparting advice and knowledge… that often requires more bluntness than tact, especially when dealing with certain mentalities displayed in the questioning. As far as the definition you gave, your action of making a complaint, when all the poor girl did was acknowledge your birthday, that is not you being careful not to offend of upset others, no matter how "polite" you think you're going to phrase it… that's the point. The very action you're considering is, by it's nature, not tactful. It's not quite tactless, but it's certainly not tactful.