Begginner really needs help

[Chris Parker]

It wasn’t a troll and I don’t need the definition spelled out.

You're new here (and you just made an error in terminology... it would be either "it wasn't a troll post", or "I'm not being a troll", or something similar, rather than "it wasn't a troll", which doesn't make sense), so I thought you may not be familiar with the term.

What you consider irrelevant, I consider important. I was only trying to highlight that. (And the reason for the “piss take” was that I don’t really care about your finances, if you have kids, or what, if any, degrees you have.)

Then why ask it? Was it to show that you didn't think your martial arts background was relevant either in a thread about how best to learn martial arts? Seriously?

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Because they aren't one in that context. There is a difference between a martial artist and a soldier, military personnel, or a fighter. There can be some cross-over, but they are still very different.

For you, what is that difference?

 

[Chris Parker]

For you, what is that difference?

The martial artist trains in a martial art. That is a systematised approach to combative applications on a personal level with a complete philosophical base (which provides the core beliefs and values to the system itself, extending into an expression of it's techniques). The remote drone specialist is a technician employed with a military role who does a job.

 

[Cyriacus]

Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?

No.
I would call them a Remote Drone Specialist.
Youre playing it too loose with the Definitions.

Much like how I could say, Noone is an Expert in ANYTHING because there is always someone somewere who has or will do better, and there is no way of affirming who that is on an ongoing basis. Therefore Expert is a false Term, and the Individual can only be "Highly Experienced".
A Martial Art refers to a Weaponless or Weapon Baring System of Self Defense, or Combative Offense. If You play fast and loose with Definitions, and say anyone who practices anything that can Harm another Person is a Martial Artist is to neglect what the Term Refers to based on its Looser Definitions.
As another example, Martial Art, Martial Style, and Martial Sport, as well as Martial Form are used Interchangably by many People, even though theyre all very different. Art may refer to where You can alter it, but only where You can alter the Martial side of it. And the Martial side of it refers to an act of Physical Violence, be it with or without Weapons (And before You jump on that, Weapons as in Not-Firearms, Not-Explosives, Not-UAVs, Not-Anything-Like-That).
Hence the Term, "Martial Art", as oppose to two Separate Terms. This Logic is also present in the Term "Second Lieutenant". It isnt Second, Lieutenant. Its Second Lieutenant. One Term, Two Words. Where does one find a Second Lieutenant?
"Second lieutenant is a junior commissioned officer military rank in many armed forces."
But wait! Lieutenant is just below Officer. Therefore, if You are a Man who is Armed with a Weapon, who has at least One Friend who is Armed with a Weapon, then You are an Armed Force. And can therefore possess the title of Second Lieutenant, should You so choose. Because You and some other Guy own Firearms. This is literally, no different to Your Example.

Its the Two Words forming One Term. And Martial Art, does not refer to Remote Drone Operators.

 

[mook jong man]

I think a few people that I have tried to teach in the past have been remotely operated drones.
The body was there , but the mind definitely wasn't.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Then why ask it? Was it to show that you didn't think your martial arts background was relevant either in a thread about how best to learn martial arts? Seriously?

It wasn't to not show that my martial arts background was relevant (I almost threw another negative in there, I hope that ended up right). As someone who came to Martial Arts later in life I bring an experience and understanding that sometimes I've seen lacking in younger people who grew up in it. (Yeah I know - that might sound arrogant, but trust me, it isn't.) As I outlined, I'm a broad sampler who makes connections between different disparate systems. My day job is to understand both complex structures and to get people to like nasty change. I work to understand the function and makeup of "what" is happening at a very deep level and then to explain it in very simple words. This applies to my martial arts as well. I, personally, don't really get anything until I get the "why". (As in why do you kick following the slip to the side?)



Why would you only focus someone's martial arts history? (yeah, I know this is a martial arts forum)



I would want to know the whole thing so that I could understand your perspective. If you have 20 years of yourself training, but have zero years dealing with the unique and special frustration that your only your own kid can provide, that does tell me a little about how you teach. (yeah, I know, everyone says "when you have your own kid, it is different", but yeah it is.)



If you pursue a life of wealth, that does tell me that you would be a good source for efficient teaching, but not necessarily good at teaching to build bonds between people (at least in my opinion).

If you give advice to a teenager, but have never been a parent of a teenager, you would in all likelihood give a different answer. I’m saying that your answer would be wrong, just different.

 

[Chris Parker]

It wasn't to not show that my martial arts background was relevant (I almost threw another negative in there, I hope that ended up right). As someone who came to Martial Arts later in life I bring an experience and understanding that sometimes I've seen lacking in younger people who grew up in it. (Yeah I know - that might sound arrogant, but trust me, it isn't.) As I outlined, I'm a broad sampler who makes connections between different disparate systems. My day job is to understand both complex structures and to get people to like nasty change. I work to understand the function and makeup of "what" is happening at a very deep level and then to explain it in very simple words. This applies to my martial arts as well. I, personally, don't really get anything until I get the "why". (As in why do you kick following the slip to the side?)

You may bring experience in other things, but martial arts is something that we bring experience in. If I want advice for rock climbing, I might ask you, but I wouldn't second guess and tell you how it is. That's what you're doing here.

Why would you only focus someone's martial arts history? (yeah, I know this is a martial arts forum)

Because it is directly related to the topic and the responses you've been giving.

I would want to know the whole thing so that I could understand your perspective. If you have 20 years of yourself training, but have zero years dealing with the unique and special frustration that your only your own kid can provide, that does tell me a little about how you teach. (yeah, I know, everyone says "when you have your own kid, it is different", but yeah it is.)

None of which has anything to do with the teaching or training of martial arts. It really doesn't.

If you pursue a life of wealth, that does tell me that you would be a good source for efficient teaching, but not necessarily good at teaching to build bonds between people (at least in my opinion).

If you give advice to a teenager, but have never been a parent of a teenager, you would in all likelihood give a different answer. I’m saying that your answer would be wrong, just different.

And again, you're making connections where there aren't any, and discussing this is an area that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic of learning from DVDs.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.

The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.

"Martial arts that aren't felt, aren't learned." I don't know where I heard that, but I am sure I didn't make it up.

Mook, I'd rep you, but I guess you posted something else I liked recently

 

[mook jong man]

"Martial arts that aren't felt, aren't learned." I don't know where I heard that, but I am sure I didn't make it up.

Mook, I'd rep you, but I guess you posted something else I liked recently

You probably read it off the back of a Corn Flakes box. :lol:

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

And again, you're making connections where there aren't any, and discussing this is an area that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic of learning from DVDs.

Yeah, I had a bit more in that post back to the OP and I snipped it just prior to shutting down for the night. Let me see if I can put it out there and see if it can make any sense.


Let’s go back to the OP. I’ll add in some color. We have kid who is just gone off to college; mostly he’s spent the last year playing Assassin’s Creed. Since about 16 he stopped playing b-ball and other sports. As a parent I had encouraged boxing, but when the teacher died it did freak him out a bit. We aren’t poor, but he has been a bit “aimless”. He has, from Assassin’s Creed and some friends, started to take an interest in Martial Arts.

Now some of his buddies go to a dojo which produces some DVD’s on Martial Arts training, he wants to know if he should ask his friends if he could borrow them.

The indomitable Mook knows the videos (hell we’ll even say they are the DVD’s the ATA put out). He knows that they are only good as a very, very, very small part of the training and, as a martial artist would say “their crap – don’t even waste your time borrowing them.” His analysis of the DVD material is perfectly accurate.

As a father with no martial arts experience, but with experience as a father, my reaction isn’t to the DVD, but to the request. I am seeing a positive peer group that is encouraging him to do something besides play video games. I don’t know what is on the DVD, and for the purposes of getting engagement with martial arts, it doesn’t matter if the DVD is the ATA training or Tai Bo or Fists of Fury 3.(*) All that matters to me as a father is that he gets of the couch and starts towards the dojo. Emulating his friends who go 30k to train while he is in class isn’t a bad first step. I expect it only to be a first, small step, but I would want the OP to take that step no matter what. Action towards a goal is better than no action. If he doesn’t take this first small step he will be less likely to take the next step of re-arranging his class schedule next quarter to go with his friends. So as a father I would say “sure, go ahead, borrow the DVD, just remember it is only a first small step towards a bigger goal”.

In fact, as a father, I would encourage him to get excited about martial arts. The OP wants to spend a few hours on youtube looking at ghetto figts – sure! The OP wants to spend time looking at different ninjutsu styles – go for it! Do I think he is actually learning a martial art? Nope. Do I think it is getting him that one step closer to the dojo – yes I do.

This is not to say that Mook isn’t right. He is, of course right that they are crap and for building his martial arts skills, they are a waste of time for the OP’s martial arts development. The advice I gave above does not contradict this, it only looks at it from a different perspective and gives different advice.





(*) OK, I lied, if it was Fists of Fury 3 he would not be able to finish watching it and the OP would likely break the DVD in half and slit his wrists rather than try to watch it a second time.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah, I had a bit more in that post back to the OP and I snipped it just prior to shutting down for the night. Let me see if I can put it out there and see if it can make any sense.


Let’s go back to the OP. I’ll add in some color. We have kid who is just gone off to college; mostly he’s spent the last year playing Assassin’s Creed. Since about 16 he stopped playing b-ball and other sports. As a parent I had encouraged boxing, but when the teacher died it did freak him out a bit. We aren’t poor, but he has been a bit “aimless”. He has, from Assassin’s Creed and some friends, started to take an interest in Martial Arts.

Now some of his buddies go to a dojo which produces some DVD’s on Martial Arts training, he wants to know if he should ask his friends if he could borrow them.

The indomitable Mook knows the videos (hell we’ll even say they are the DVD’s the ATA put out). He knows that they are only good as a very, very, very small part of the training and, as a martial artist would say “their crap – don’t even waste your time borrowing them.” His analysis of the DVD material is perfectly accurate.

As a father with no martial arts experience, but with experience as a father, my reaction isn’t to the DVD, but to the request. I am seeing a positive peer group that is encouraging him to do something besides play video games. I don’t know what is on the DVD, and for the purposes of getting engagement with martial arts, it doesn’t matter if the DVD is the ATA training or Tai Bo or Fists of Fury 3.(*) All that matters to me as a father is that he gets of the couch and starts towards the dojo. Emulating his friends who go 30k to train while he is in class isn’t a bad first step. I expect it only to be a first, small step, but I would want the OP to take that step no matter what. Action towards a goal is better than no action. If he doesn’t take this first small step he will be less likely to take the next step of re-arranging his class schedule next quarter to go with his friends. So as a father I would say “sure, go ahead, borrow the DVD, just remember it is only a first small step towards a bigger goal”.

In fact, as a father, I would encourage him to get excited about martial arts. The OP wants to spend a few hours on youtube looking at ghetto figts – sure! The OP wants to spend time looking at different ninjutsu styles – go for it! Do I think he is actually learning a martial art? Nope. Do I think it is getting him that one step closer to the dojo – yes I do.

This is not to say that Mook isn’t right. He is, of course right that they are crap and for building his martial arts skills, they are a waste of time for the OP’s martial arts development. The advice I gave above does not contradict this, it only looks at it from a different perspective and gives different advice.





(*) OK, I lied, if it was Fists of Fury 3 he would not be able to finish watching it and the OP would likely break the DVD in half and slit his wrists rather than try to watch it a second time.

This is pretty much what Chris said to begin with, about how DVDs and Videos are a good way to Learn ABOUT MA.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't think DVD's are crap , I can watch different DVD's on Wing Chun and learn something new from them , but that is because I'm already experienced and know how the system works.But someone that was new or from outside the system might find it very difficult to understand exactly what it is they are looking at.

 

[jks9199]

As a father with no martial arts experience, but with experience as a father, my reaction isn’t to the DVD, but to the request. I am seeing a positive peer group that is encouraging him to do something besides play video games. I don’t know what is on the DVD, and for the purposes of getting engagement with martial arts, it doesn’t matter if the DVD is the ATA training or Tai Bo or Fists of Fury 3.(*) All that matters to me as a father is that he gets of the couch and starts towards the dojo. Emulating his friends who go 30k to train while he is in class isn’t a bad first step. I expect it only to be a first, small step, but I would want the OP to take that step no matter what. Action towards a goal is better than no action. If he doesn’t take this first small step he will be less likely to take the next step of re-arranging his class schedule next quarter to go with his friends. So as a father I would say “sure, go ahead, borrow the DVD, just remember it is only a first small step towards a bigger goal”.

But, if his interest were rock climbing and he were to head out the door with his buddies dragging a hank of clothesline --- you'd stop him, right?

Encouraging him to train with the videos is pretty much the same thing. It's an invitation to frustration and injury; he won't understand why he can't get things done that he sees in the movies or videos because he lacks the underlying fundamentals and principles. Watching the videos to learn ABOUT the martial arts is OK and good. But not to train...

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

But, if his interest were rock climbing and he were to head out the door with his buddies dragging a hank of clothesline --- you'd stop him, right?

Encouraging him to train with the videos is pretty much the same thing. It's an invitation to frustration and injury; he won't understand why he can't get things done that he sees in the movies or videos because he lacks the underlying fundamentals and principles. Watching the videos to learn ABOUT the martial arts is OK and good. But not to train...

Hmm. As a parent. Well, let me see.

My son’s favorite t-shirt says “I’ve seen it on TV, I think I can do it” (yes, he actually gets the irony). My son was (and in a way still is) the kid who climbs outside of the playground set and climbs to the top and waves and yell “hi mom” and his mom waves back (the looks of horrors on the other mom’s faces is always priceless). And since even some of our “safe” family outings have had some slight mishaps (nothing like being lost in a desert for a few hours to really bring the family together), I may not be the best parent to ask if I would shelter my kid.

But let’s get very specific; say he wanted to try to recreate some 1920’s climbing (hobnail boots, hemp rope and a body belay). Would I let him? Sure.

If he wanted to recreate the best of Dan Osman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si2j6IaKQGU&feature=related) (the jump that killed him is about half the way thru – it is the “fade to smoke” fall) or Dean Potter (http://player.testing2.vimeo.com/7255734) (my son did like this one a lot). Would I let him? Sure.

But my son has also watched “Touching the Void”. It isn’t rock climbing but it is considered one of the greatest mountaineering survival stories ever. One of the best testaments to what the human will can do. (If you haven’t seen it, I strongly recommend it.) And the key is that we have talked about risks and how to evaluate risks.

See, I’m big on teaching my kid to teach himself. So if he thinks he knows after watching a DVD of something how to do it, I, after questioning him, trust him. We have worked all of his life to develop the ability to explore and learn for himself. So yeah, he can go for it. Would I recommend that to an OP who posted once on a site – no I wouldn’t. But to my own son can go for it.

As for unlearning bad habits, as someone who started far later in life than probably most others on this board, I do feel that I do have some personal insight there. For me, one of the big insights was how to move my feet. Really. If I had known how to do that when I was much younger, my basketball defense might have been more than spinning gate. (Fortunately I have the APE of an ape, so I could at least block shots). And over the course of my life I’ve unlearned many, many things. However, I have to say, for me, it isn’t as hard to unlearn a habit as it is generally considered. But that could be just my perspective; I haven’t seen any studies to back that up.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I don't think DVD's are crap , I can watch different DVD's on Wing Chun and learn something new from them , but that is because I'm already experienced and know how the system works.But someone that was new or from outside the system might find it very difficult to understand exactly what it is they are looking at.

I'm sorry if I misrepesented your opinion in any way.

 

[Cyriacus]

This is a really strange discussion

 

[jks9199]

Hmm. As a parent. Well, let me see.

My son’s favorite t-shirt says “I’ve seen it on TV, I think I can do it” (yes, he actually gets the irony). My son was (and in a way still is) the kid who climbs outside of the playground set and climbs to the top and waves and yell “hi mom” and his mom waves back (the looks of horrors on the other mom’s faces is always priceless). And since even some of our “safe” family outings have had some slight mishaps (nothing like being lost in a desert for a few hours to really bring the family together), I may not be the best parent to ask if I would shelter my kid.

But let’s get very specific; say he wanted to try to recreate some 1920’s climbing (hobnail boots, hemp rope and a body belay). Would I let him? Sure.

If he wanted to recreate the best of Dan Osman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si2j6IaKQGU&feature=related) (the jump that killed him is about half the way thru – it is the “fade to smoke” fall) or Dean Potter (http://player.testing2.vimeo.com/7255734) (my son did like this one a lot). Would I let him? Sure.

But my son has also watched “Touching the Void”. It isn’t rock climbing but it is considered one of the greatest mountaineering survival stories ever. One of the best testaments to what the human will can do. (If you haven’t seen it, I strongly recommend it.) And the key is that we have talked about risks and how to evaluate risks.

See, I’m big on teaching my kid to teach himself. So if he thinks he knows after watching a DVD of something how to do it, I, after questioning him, trust him. We have worked all of his life to develop the ability to explore and learn for himself. So yeah, he can go for it. Would I recommend that to an OP who posted once on a site – no I wouldn’t. But to my own son can go for it.

As for unlearning bad habits, as someone who started far later in life than probably most others on this board, I do feel that I do have some personal insight there. For me, one of the big insights was how to move my feet. Really. If I had known how to do that when I was much younger, my basketball defense might have been more than spinning gate. (Fortunately I have the APE of an ape, so I could at least block shots). And over the course of my life I’ve unlearned many, many things. However, I have to say, for me, it isn’t as hard to unlearn a habit as it is generally considered. But that could be just my perspective; I haven’t seen any studies to back that up.

None of that is what I said. I said "a hunk of clothesline." I don't care if you go plastic coated or cotton -- but I'm talking clothesline, used to hang clothes. That stretches and has almost no dynamic holding strength (as one of my buddies who spent a week in the hospital in our teens can confirm).

What you don't seem to be getting is that there are a very few great talents who can figure out fighting all on their own. There are probably a few more who can work from a book or video, and figure it out without help. But most of us? Nope. We need the hands on, direct guidance to put it all together.

The term "sensei", I'm told reliably, can be translated "one who has gone before." I think that there's a lot of relevance in that term in the martial arts: a martial arts teacher helps you learn because he's been there, and can show you how to get where he is. (Maybe it's kind of like following an established route on a climb compared to making your own route.) A video or book can't communicate some nuances; it just doesn't work. I can look at a student, and realize that his stance, while it appears to be right, isn't really going to work because pieces of his alignment are off. (I still need outside eyes on occasion; whether my teacher or partner... sometimes, I just need someone to be able to look at what I'm doing and catch something that has drifted a little bit off.)

You're apparently something of an autodidact. Great. But some things simply can't be learned that way. Question your teachers until you find someone that you trust to lead you down the path -- but then you must place your trust in them. A good teacher will lead you to places you couldn't even have perceived when you started.

 

[Chris Parker]

As JKS said, the term "sensei" literally means "former born", or "born beforehand", meaning someone who's been there, and done that (and typically made the same stupid mistakes already...), and it's this previous experience that allows an instructor to guide a student. They use that experience to watch, see where mistakes they made in their earlier studies are coming out, and where they need to be corrected. A DVD can't do that.

But that's really not even the main thing here. The biggest issue that I can see is that you don't seem to understand how martial arts skill is developed. It is not a matter of mechanical "put this foot here, and this one here, turn your hips X-degrees, and push your fist out to punch". That's just a tiny part of it, to the point that I almost don't consider it at all. My student's will tell you that I'm a stickler for correct form, but it's not because "that's how your feet go", it's a bigger picture thing. It's to do with why the feet are the way they are, why the hips turn that way, and how that all fits within the bigger picture of the system itself. Simple mechanical replication is nothing like actual martial education.

Next is the intended usage or application. This is where your whole rock climbing idea is completely irrelevant. The aim in terms of a martial arts application or usage is as an automatic, spontaneous response to a sudden stimulus (attack), in which you have no time to consciously think things through and make a decision, you can only give over to the training, and hope that it was designed properly to instill such skills. In rock climbing, you can plan out your route, decide where you're going to put this foot or that hand, take your time to look for the next hold, and so on. As a result, the usage and application are completely removed from martial application and usage.

Frankly the new, added hypotheticals you've been supplying mean absolutely nothing at all. You are trying to add a false context where it doesn't exist in order to make your flawed case, and your case still doesn't work, and I really don't know what they have to do with the idea of learning a martial art from a DVD. It really doesn't matter if the kid was playing Assassin's Creed every day for two years, he won't be able to learn a martial art from a DVD. And that is the point. You, as a parent, might think you're encouraging him by indulging, but that doesn't mean he can learn a martial art from a DVD. Good or bad parenting doesn't come into this, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion itself.

 

[Tez3]

Learning martial arts off DVD's is the same as learning to swim on dry land. Not original but holds true all the same.