Begginner really needs help

[Chris Parker]

I’m sorry if my post came off as arrogant or disrespectful. I was trying to explain the context to which I came to martial arts.

The reason I went into the explanation about climbing is that when you are 50 feet of the deck and at the “crux” move and you are pumped and your last clip is so far below you that it means if you blow the move you are going for a ride where your belayer better do a great catch or you will have a groundfall, your teacher isn’t going to be able to come up and say “your weight is a little high, tense your muscles in your left leg and shift a bit to your right.” The student is fully responsible for their training and must develop a great deal of proprioception. It is a self-reliant activity where the individual owns their development and their motivation. There are no belts or levels. There are no team extreme competitions with pretty synchronized moves. There also is no history of needing the person next to you being able to stand firm in a skjaldborg. In climbing, you need to explicitly not count on anyone else as compared to much of martial arts history.

Climbing moves are graded across a consensus of individuals, but even with in that a hard “offwidth” (think scraping up a chimney in by inch, it is a very masochistic hobby) is very different than an equivalently hard “face climb”. The best climbers must have not only a passion for the activity but a great introspective nature to be able to question a move and feel what is right. And what is right is worked and worked and worked until a specific move flows. Climbers will often work a route right at their limit for weeks, months, and sometimes even years. When they are on the ground they can ask for help and they can watch someone else execute a move, but they must, on their own, figure out how they execute the move. No two people ever climb the same route in the exact same way. Coaching is a form of suggesting how someone might, but it is the student who must do.

There is an excellent DVD / book combination call “The Self Coached Climber”, it is standard fare for a recommendation for all new climbers. It has way more than any new climber could digest and most people re-read it at different stages in their development. One of the hidden gems of the DVD is where the filmed two pro climbers trying to “redpoint” a route (working it repeatedly over the course of several days). Then, from the same angle, with the same climber the DVD breaks down why the climber was able to execute the move one time and the next time they failed. The camera revealed the subtle movements and weight shifts, it helped me greatly progress in building my proprioception which has in turn helped with things like my stances and blocks.

The problem is that this is absolutely nothing like martial arts training. At all. As a result, they have no real relevance to your martial arts perspective except in your personal philosophy, which isn't anything that we would have a way of relating to.

These activities in my life have colored my perspective. I bring a strong “student focused” aspect to my martial arts training (it is the student that owns their own martial art). I am always interpreting what I am taught with the filter of both my life history and my expectations for my future. My odds of facing three thugs on a train are virtually nil, but it is fun to train for multiple attackers in a confined space. I do, however, put more effort into those things that will more likely benefit me and my life. I do martial arts as an integrated part of my broader view of how to best live my life. The WIIFM filter is always on. If that is wrong in your eyes, so be it. My hyper critical mind makes me a crappy student for many things (I’m much better about not speaking up at corporate training after years of pointing out obvious flaws to the detriment of my career) and I willingly accept that I will never master any single style. If you think is a less efficient way to learn, we can certainly discuss. If your assumption is that I would miss things because I lack the experience to judge what is right and what is wrong, you may be right. However, after spending years developing several skills (not just climbing) in this self-directed style and self-sufficient manner, to say that I would make the same miss as an arrogant teenager is to underestimate my personal development.

Except that we have repeatedly pointed out that this method doesn't work for martial arts. There are just too many differences.

I think training of how to learn skills is in itself; a specific skill that needs to be cultivated. I have trained for it, I’m fairly good at it, and I recommend it.

The training needs to be relevant to the skill and application. This method is not when it comes to martial arts.

As to the superiority complex, again, I apologize if it came off that way.

Not a problem, but you may want to rethink your approach to those who have spent years, or in a number of cases, decades learning this stuff. Continually arguing against those who genuinely do know better because you want to assume that everyone has a limited experience will just get people frustrated in dealings with you.

And as to the “pills”, sorry for the cheezy reference. Here is the joke:

And the reason for asking the clarification was that I was curious as to why once you have slipped the front kick would you not go for the thumb thrust to the ribs. I was curious if the kick was more for destabilizing the return to the ground of the attacker’s foot and slowing their ability to react or if it was intended as strike at a sensitive area (back of knee or pills). It does have nothing to do with anything else here, I’m just curious.

Honestly, it's really not relevant, and the only way for me to really take you through what it is, and why, would be in person (that's the way to learn these things), so there's no real need to answer. But, so you know, the reason you don't just go for the Boshi Ken is that it won't work.

I proudly state that I am a 1st degree dan from a McDojo. (among a few other minor things.)

I didn't intend that it was dancing around, it was more that, to me, there were other bits that interested me more in replying to. There have been many statements, questions, and people I wanted to reply to, but I didn't. If that lended to the appearance that I was dodging the question, I again, appologize.

Sometimes statements will certainly stand on their own feet without it mattering who they come from, but when it's a discussion of methods of learning, and the person putting forth a pro-DVD argument seems to be displaying no idea whatsoever about martial arts and the way they work and are learnt, the context of who exactly is saying it comes into it. If you're just a person who has seen some Bruce Lee films and has made some uninformed decisions and beliefs, that's a fair enough reason to not listen, if you turn around and say "well, I've trained in 5 systems over the last 30 years, I hold X-Dan in this one, X-Dan in this one etc", then things are a bit different. This is why that particular question, whether it interested you or not, was actually quite vital to the discussion.

Now, your profile lists TKD, and this is the first indication of any rank that I've seen from you. I would ask, though, how you knew the school to be a "McDojo", as that is coming across as a value judgement at the moment, and as you have not mentioned the art yourself, your answer is still far from "clear and concise". Let's see if we can get something solid.

How long have you trained in TKD? Do you still train in it? How long ago was it, if you don't? We'll start there.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Toast, I'm going to ask one more time, as going through your posts I see a large number of things leaping out at me, so before I jump to a conclusion, can you clarify if you have any actual martial arts background at all? Not dismissing anything you feel is unimportant, not looking at a personal philosophy of how you decide to classify them (Warren Buffet as a "great martial artist"? No, not a damn chance, unless you can tell me his ranking in a school), or anything similar, I'm interested in if you have any real experience at all. Clearly and concisely would be good.

I apologize for missing this at the bottom, I saw that you spoke to another, so I initially missed this.

The Warren Buffet comment was about if we consider that it is a great ability of a martial artist to strike and be safe from harm from a strike, than the classic quote of “fight without fighting” comes into play. (As in safety step #1: don’t be on the ghetto train at 3:00 a.m. in the morning.). Then logically, Mr. Buffet is further from harm than us and has the ability to inflict harm to a level that we do not possess. If you have a further refined measure of martial arts, I’d be curious to know where you draw the line. I was trying to say that I take a very broad view of martial arts. Your definition may vary.

And, as far as I know, WB is only good a bridge. He is ranked at that (and on Forbes richest) but not with any combat arts.

I am curious – what are those large number of things that leaping out to me? Right or wrong about me, I would like to know.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, for starters, that entire post. There is no definition of a martial artist as someone who remains "safe from harm from a strike" at all, a martial artist is someone who studies martial arts. Next is the lack of any real understanding in the training methods of martial arts, what they are designed to instill, and how that is achieved (which is exactly why your rock climbing references are completely irrelevant). That is then followed by no reference to any training, other than what you describe as "not getting into fights" and "crap".

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Now, your profile lists TKD, and this is the first indication of any rank that I've seen from you. I would ask, though, how you knew the school to be a "McDojo", as that is coming across as a value judgement at the moment, and as you have not mentioned the art yourself, your answer is still far from "clear and concise". Let's see if we can get something solid.

How long have you trained in TKD? Do you still train in it? How long ago was it, if you don't? We'll start there.

I know this may not solve our current impasse. But please, may I ask a few questions:

How much money did you make last year (it is a commonly accepted notion of success in a western world that more income equals a better understanding of life)? Have your kids developed in a way that has them on the honor roll (it is, again a commonly accepted notion of success that the ability to parent well is a great indicator the quality of an individual)? How well do you understand quantum mechanics (it is, again a commonly accepted notion that people who understand this are smart).

I ask because it would seem that it would be proper to know if you are someone who is smart, successful, and a great parent.

I kindly await your reply. And yes, I will be as clear and concise as possible with my next reply. Okay, I have trouble with consise, but I will try.

 

[Chris Parker]

We are not discussing financial success, parenting strategies, or theoretical physics, son. We are discussing learning methods for martial arts, hence your background being relevant when you come at this from such a flawed viewpoint and continue to insist on arguing.

But, for the record, my finances were fine, I have no kids, and I've been explaining quantum and string theory to people for years.

Answer the question.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Well, for starters, that entire post. There is no definition of a martial artist as someone who remains "safe from harm from a strike" at all, a martial artist is someone who studies martial arts. Next is the lack of any real understanding in the training methods of martial arts, what they are designed to instill, and how that is achieved (which is exactly why your rock climbing references are completely irrelevant). That is then followed by no reference to any training, other than what you describe as "not getting into fights" and "crap".

I take “martial” at the broadest definition, meaning the ability to inflict, with or without force, one’s will. One could study military strategy and, to me, be a martial artist, without ever punching a single bag. One could be a desk jockey capable of nothing more than throwing up and, if they have an understanding of how remote drones work, then they are, to me, a martial artist. Artist, again to me, comes only from the study of either a broad swath or a deep look at a single aspect. Again, the guy who knows everything about remote killing machines is, by definition, martial and their great depth of knowledge approaches artistry. Now, is that the same as someone who trains physically to defend oneself? It is, to me, only a matter of degrees and technology.

Often the word “traditional” is thrown in front of martial artist to differentiate between the use of modern weapons and, usually, the use of non-gunpowder (and especially non-nuclear) weaponry. I’ll quote Sun Tzu “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” This is martial arts, is it not?

 

[Cyriacus]

I take “martial” at the broadest definition, meaning the ability to inflict, with or without force, one’s will. One could study military strategy and, to me, be a martial artist, without ever punching a single bag. One could be a desk jockey capable of nothing more than throwing up and, if they have an understanding of how remote drones work, then they are, to me, a martial artist. Artist, again to me, comes only from the study of either a broad swath or a deep look at a single aspect. Again, the guy who knows everything about remote killing machines is, by definition, martial and their great depth of knowledge approaches artistry. Now, is that the same as someone who trains physically to defend oneself? It is, to me, only a matter of degrees and technology.

Often the word “traditional” is thrown in front of martial artist to differentiate between the use of modern weapons and, usually, the use of non-gunpowder (and especially non-nuclear) weaponry. I’ll quote Sun Tzu “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” This is martial arts, is it not?

The Martial part is the Combat/Engagement side. Exclusively.
The Art side is where You get to play with it a bit, and add in stuff like Pacifism and Ethics.

 

[Chris Parker]

You're on a martial arts forum, for people who train in martial arts. That's the contextual definition here, son. Not whatever you want it to be, as that is completely baseless, irrelevant, and damn arrogant. You really don't need to quote Sun Tzu to me, but I would question whether or not you understood what he meant by that.

You remember what I said about frustrating those who have been doing this for decades? This is what I meant. Get over yourself, answer the questions that have been posed to you.

 

[Indagator]

I know this may not solve our current impasse. But please, may I ask a few questions:

How much money did you make last year (it is a commonly accepted notion of success in a western world that more income equals a better understanding of life)? Have your kids developed in a way that has them on the honor roll (it is, again a commonly accepted notion of success that the ability to parent well is a great indicator the quality of an individual)? How well do you understand quantum mechanics (it is, again a commonly accepted notion that people who understand this are smart).

I ask because it would seem that it would be proper to know if you are someone who is smart, successful, and a great parent.

I kindly await your reply. And yes, I will be as clear and concise as possible with my next reply. Okay, I have trouble with consise, but I will try.

Sriously, this is a piss-take right?

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

We are not discussing financial success, parenting strategies, or theoretical physics, son. We are discussing learning methods for martial arts, hence your background being relevant when you come at this from such a flawed viewpoint and continue to insist on arguing.

But, for the record, my finances were fine, I have no kids, and I've been explaining quantum and string theory to people for years.

Answer the question.

Son? Really, one should treat one’s elders with more respect. I asked for specifics that you seem to be asking for, and your evasive answers speak volumes.

To step back, I’m 46 years old. My youth was not spent in martial arts, but was in other pursuits. I played most American sports (baseball, basketball, track and soccer). I was quite good in soccer, but a knee injury prevented any great success (and there wasn’t much organized soccer back then in the USA). I did play rugby in college, but it could have been just for the beer. My degree is in Physics with a specialization in some of the early use of computers to simulate phase shifts of materials.

From there, since physics doesn’t break, and computers do, it was off to the workplace fixing computers. From there, it has been a very eclectic collection of technology and manufacturing related roles taking me first to the rural areas (guns a plenty) and then to the flatlands of America. Along the way, I met, and married my wonderful wife who is the only person I accept any appeals to authority from. We have two kids.

I did take up climbing in one of the flattest parts of the country and I did learn how to setup anchors from a book and browsing on the internet. And yes, I am still alive today. And yes, I am an acrophobic. I’m physically spent for a good ten minutes after setting up a top rope anchor.

After a second knee injury on my part (the story starts with “I bought my son a snowboard” and usually doesn’t need to go on from there), I began, about five years ago in the ATA. We had signed my son up and frankly I couldn’t sit still in the back of the class, so I got up and participated. I’ve found some parts easy, but my adductors aren’t very flexible so while I’m good to the front (that old soccer kick), I’m not so good to the side.

Since I started martial arts over forty, my goals are simply to see more threats and be better able to react to them. I do participate in ATA competitions, I do well in sparring (mostly I think, due to my conditioning relative to people my age) but I suck in forms. I have no patience for them. My wife and daughter also participate. My wife and I also do some Krav. Krav is more to my liking, but I do so like the competitive nature of TKD sparring.

I make roughly 100k a year, both of my kids are on the honor role, and yes, I can explain quantum mechanics. I can also talk about: Food, Anthropology, Comparative Biology, Archeology, Paleontology, Electrical Wiring, Plumbing, Market Policy, Learning Theories, Statistics, Law, Business Management, Finance, Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance, Model-Netics, Genetics, Database Structures, Project Methodologies, Change Management, Continuous Improvement, Fung Shui, Mycology, Rock Climbing, and sometimes, just sometimes, Martial Arts.

So please, please, tell me where in my life did I possibly develop this flawed viewpoint? Is it that I know too much about too many other things?

(and I was at least right, I wasn't concise.)

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Sriously, this is a piss-take right?

Yup.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

You're on a martial arts forum, for people who train in martial arts. That's the contextual definition here, son. Not whatever you want it to be, as that is completely baseless, irrelevant, and damn arrogant. You really don't need to quote Sun Tzu to me, but I would question whether or not you understood what he meant by that.

You remember what I said about frustrating those who have been doing this for decades? This is what I meant. Get over yourself, answer the questions that have been posed to you.

It interesting that you came back with "son" a second time and thrown in arrogant more than once and the desire to have questions directly answered is interesting.

I apologize if I'm frustrating to you, for the most part I've found your posts quite enjoyable.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

The Martial part is the Combat/Engagement side. Exclusively.
The Art side is where You get to play with it a bit, and add in stuff like Pacifism and Ethics.

Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?

 

[Chris Parker]

Son? Really, one should treat one’s elders with more respect. I asked for specifics that you seem to be asking for, and your evasive answers speak volumes.

To step back, I’m 46 years old. My youth was not spent in martial arts, but was in other pursuits. I played most American sports (baseball, basketball, track and soccer). I was quite good in soccer, but a knee injury prevented any great success (and there wasn’t much organized soccer back then in the USA). I did play rugby in college, but it could have been just for the beer. My degree is in Physics with a specialization in some of the early use of computers to simulate phase shifts of materials.

From there, since physics doesn’t break, and computers do, it was off to the workplace fixing computers. From there, it has been a very eclectic collection of technology and manufacturing related roles taking me first to the rural areas (guns a plenty) and then to the flatlands of America. Along the way, I met, and married my wonderful wife who is the only person I accept any appeals to authority from. We have two kids.

I did take up climbing in one of the flattest parts of the country and I did learn how to setup anchors from a book and browsing on the internet. And yes, I am still alive today. And yes, I am an acrophobic. I’m physically spent for a good ten minutes after setting up a top rope anchor.

After a second knee injury on my part (the story starts with “I bought my son a snowboard” and usually doesn’t need to go on from there), I began, about five years ago in the ATA. We had signed my son up and frankly I couldn’t sit still in the back of the class, so I got up and participated. I’ve found some parts easy, but my adductors aren’t very flexible so while I’m good to the front (that old soccer kick), I’m not so good to the side.

Since I started martial arts over forty, my goals are simply to see more threats and be better able to react to them. I do participate in ATA competitions, I do well in sparring (mostly I think, due to my conditioning relative to people my age) but I suck in forms. I have no patience for them. My wife and daughter also participate. My wife and I also do some Krav. Krav is more to my liking, but I do so like the competitive nature of TKD sparring.

I make roughly 100k a year, both of my kids are on the honor role, and yes, I can explain quantum mechanics. I can also talk about: Food, Anthropology, Comparative Biology, Archeology, Paleontology, Electrical Wiring, Plumbing, Market Policy, Learning Theories, Statistics, Law, Business Management, Finance, Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance, Model-Netics, Genetics, Database Structures, Project Methodologies, Change Management, Continuous Improvement, Fung Shui, Mycology, Rock Climbing, and sometimes, just sometimes, Martial Arts.

So please, please, tell me where in my life did I possibly develop this flawed viewpoint? Is it that I know too much about too many other things?


(and I was at least right, I wasn't concise.)

Most of that post was frankly irrelevant. Firstly, though, the term "son" was used as you're acting like a kid, playing a game of non-cooperation, and to point out that, in terms of the arts, you are the young, inexperienced one here. Next, I did answer the questions you posed pretty directly, even though they have absolutely nothing to do with what you were being asked or why. That makes all of your details answering your own questions laughable, really, as it has nothing to do with anything here. In fact, the only relevant parts are found in the fifth and sixth paragraph, with you then going off on a completely unrelated and pointless tangent for the last ones.

However, we have gotten some information out of you.

To sum up - Five years ago you started in ATA, and have since earned a Shodan (Chodan in Korean systems, I believe), you like the sparring, but not the forms (where the art actually lives), and have done some Krav Maga. Right.

Where did your flawed viewpoint come from? Honestly, I'd say arrogance in believing that you know better than people a lot more experienced than you are, using your perceived intelligence, financial earnings, and achievements of your kids as justification for such things. At least, that's what it reads like from here. And honestly, you don't want a list of the things I can speak on.

From here, though, I'd suggest pulling your head in a bit, and recognising that when experienced people all say the same thing, it usually means something. You may also want to look a little closer at how you've been taught, as you'll see a range of things that are present, even in the "McDojo" training, that cannot be there in a DVD.

Oh, and admitting that something you've posted is a "piss take" in responce to people asking you serious questions can be taken as trolling (posting just to work people up or waste their time), which can have some pretty severe consequences. I'd watch that as well.

 

[Chris Parker]

It interesting that you came back with "son" a second time and thrown in arrogant more than once and the desire to have questions directly answered is interesting.

I apologize if I'm frustrating to you, for the most part I've found your posts quite enjoyable.

I honestly question the sincerity of this sentiment.

This is a discussion board, of course I want questions answered directly, that's how we gain more information and continue the discussion. If you don't get that, however...

Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?

No.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I honestly question the sincerity of this sentiment.

This is a discussion board, of course I want questions answered directly, that's how we gain more information and continue the discussion. If you don't get that, however...



No.

I am honest and sincere. Please kindly assume that I and all of my posts were with the honest intention of explaining via posts who I am and why I think you have miscast me. I do hope we continue to get to know each other in mutual respect.

If I may ask for more detail - why would you not consider that person a Martial Artist?

 

[mook jong man]

I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.

The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

Oh, and admitting that something you've posted is a "piss take" in responce to people asking you serious questions can be taken as trolling (posting just to work people up or waste their time), which can have some pretty severe consequences. I'd watch that as well.

It wasn’t a troll and I don’t need the definition spelled out.

What you consider irrelevant, I consider important. I was only trying to highlight that. (And the reason for the “piss take” was that I don’t really care about your finances, if you have kids, or what, if any, degrees you have.)

 

[Chris Parker]

I am honest and sincere. Please kindly assume that I and all of my posts were with the honest intention of explaining via posts who I am and why I think you have miscast me. I do hope we continue to get to know each other in mutual respect.

We can't see you here. We can't hear what the tone in your voice is. All we have to go on are the words you type. And when a topic is on the training methods for martial arts, for all we know, with the answers you were providing, you could have been a 17 year old kid with some friends who have done some karate and shown you a kick or two while you're watching Ninja Assassin. As a result, plain answers to straight questions would be preferred, as it will avoid you being cast in such ways. You were asked repeatedly about exactly what you martial arts background is, and the responce we were getting was "well, I consider martial arts to be broader than others, and I go rock climbing... ", which gives no real answers, nor any explanation of who you are in the context of this forum whatsoever. Sadly, due to that beginning, you have an uphill battle. But this is a good step in the right direction.

If I may ask for more detail - why would you not consider that person a Martial Artist?

Because they aren't one in that context. There is a difference between a martial artist and a soldier, military personnel, or a fighter. There can be some cross-over, but they are still very different.

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.

The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.

Just wanted you to know, this made me smile.