I politely disagree. As the person posting the outrageous statement (almost troll like) in the thread, this is what I am discussing and most seem to be disagree with.
However the context of DVD learning in this thread comes from the OP, where our thread starter is a teenager with a bit of boxing, and no way of getting to a martial art school. He has no experience in martial arts, so putting forth DVD learning as viable based on previous experience being applied to the DVDs and their content really is not what is being discussed here.
Of course the complete novice has no understanding of what they should look for. It is, actually far worse than that, see the Dunning–Kruger effect. (A great little spice for an argument by the way).
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect... but I don't see how it supports the idea of DVD training for an inexperienced beginner. Which is the thrust of this thread.
How does someone get the differences in interpretations or the reasons for such changes? Observing as broad a collection of interpretations as possible is a key for getting that insight. That is what a student does when they become a teacher, and with technology, a new student can now see many more versions in a week than they could have before in a year. Plus, the technology is completely patient. A move can be watched over and over and over in a way that no instructor would ever demonstrate. Two peoples interpretation of the same moves can be seen over and over and over until the differences can be spotted.
But without the experience leading up to that, how would the student know what the differences mean, or which are good, and why? I mean, I can put up a range of different versions of a range of systems that you are unfamiliar with... can you tell me which is good, which should be followed, which is correct, and why?
Tell you what, let's try. Following are a few examples of a kata called "Koku". It's the first kata in one of the Ninjutsu schools, Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, and each example here is from either one of the heads of an organisation (Hatsumi Sensei of the Bujinkan, Tanemura Sensei of the Genbukan) or is an example of "this is how it's done" (from the Akban organisation, originally from the Bujinkan).
Hatsumi Sensei - Bujinkan
Tanemura Sensei - Genbukan (Koku is the first technique shown, 0:14-0:17)
Akban organisation.
Now, I can see where the variations are, which group is doing things differently, where it's accurate, and where it's not, as well as pick up some major mistakes. How'd you do?
It most certainly would be confusing at first. But, with focused attention, the student would begin to see first the differences and with more comparisons begin to see not just differences but which ones are better.
Just because they can see differences doesn't mean they can tell which is the one they should copy, or why. Additionally, they may spot the differences, but unless someone is pointing out the errors to the student themselves, there is no guarantee that they would ever notice such things in themselves, let alone correct them.
The hypothetical student would need a great deal of proprioception. Awareness of a where a hand is or what the angle of the arm is in a form is taught not just thru the instructor pointing out that it is wrong, but from the student building their awareness. This underappreciated skill is a key contributing factor to how quickly a student can train. To our hypothetical kid, this awareness would need to be cultivated not as an afterthought, as it so often is, but as a key part of the instruction.
No, I don't think it's underappreciated, we're just saying that such awareness is also taught (by your instructor pointing things out to you, you become aware of them, and then you can start on the journey of self correction.. a DVD doesn't provide that). And none of this changes the fact that the method of learning maths etc is completely removed from the method and process of learning a martial art.
(Please note – in my first post, I said this training wouldn’t work, but for different reasons).
No, what you said was that DVDs were an underestimated learning tool, and the problem was without a teacher to provide structure the potential student would get bored... really not the same thing that we're saying in terms of it not working....
Does something like this exist for martial arts today? Broadly – no. It is being built for other human activities with some, especially those with simple repeated activities. Probably the easiest to see demonstrated would be golf video instruction (although many would say the golf swing isn’t exactly simple). (Yes I am about to use golf as a simile, and yes, it is a simile, I’m not saying they are exactly the same thing.)
Well, firstly, that's a very different skill set again. Golf and martial arts really don't have anything in common in terms of how they are learnt. It's not just that they aren't the same thing, it's that they bear almost no relation to each other.
Golfers use tools like
http://cswing.com/swinglibrary.html to compare their swing to the pros. For those unfamiliar with these tools, you film yourself hitting a golf ball and then superimpose a pro golfer next to you and compare “Tiger Woods here” vs. “you here”. Phrases like “don’t come over the top on that swing” or “you are too much outside in” don’t work nearly as well as the cold hearted video showing you next to someone doing it right.
And all of this is based on a previous amount of experience and skill in playing golf. Still not something that will work for martial arts... it's a lot more than just getting your arm in the right place.
This video is a feedback tool that many successful golfers use. (That and launch monitors) Along the same line, I know of several scratch golfers who can watch a pro swing and call out if the shot is left or right before the camera pans out. How? Film study. They have watched thousands of similar shots and can see exactly where the flaw is. These same golfers also know when they hit a shot left or right exactly what they did wrong, based only on the flight of the ball and their own increased proprioception. Think of how this technology can be put to use in martial arts training.
I've been to BJJ tournaments and, before the match started, picked who would win, and how, as well as roughly how long it would take. How? Simple, I have experience in these things. Same with your guys watching the golf... it's more to do with their experience, not just watching tapes. Honestly, your simile is desperately flawed.
Many dojos have mirrors, why not video cameras as well?
That's a completely different thing to what we're discussing, though. Videoing yourself as a form of self critique, using mirrors etc, fine, great, advised, in fact. But what we're discussing is using DVDs to learn when you have no experience. That's what the OP was asking about, and that's the context we're discussing things in.
Should the OP buy a DVD and learn everything on it? No (*). Should the OP take every advantage of video, even as a beginner? Yes.
They can get some interest out of it, but that's about it. As I said when you first posted, videos can be great to learn
about different arts, not to actually learn them. And an absolute beginner? No chance, frankly.
(*) It may be better than nothing, but there are lots of other alternatives that should be explored.
This is not an advised one.
So because an experienced golfer can instantly judge where a ball will go(left or right) based on observation(and their EXPERIENCE), you believe someone with no EXPERIENCE can figure out not only how to correctly do a martial arts technique, but can judge between multiple videos/DVDs as to who is performing the technique/kata/poomse/hyung better than the other videos they have observed?
What is your actual martial arts training background? How many martial arts have YOU learned by video? If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style? Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?
Seconded!
Yes, I believe this is possible. A complete newbie won't be able to view kata videos of (say) Morio Higaonna and be able to state why Higaonna Sensei is so technically outstanding, but he would be able to tell the level of quality of Higaonna Sensei when contrasting his performance versus a more mediocre player. Heck, the parents in my church class who don't train at all can see the difference between kid A and kid B even though they might not be able to articulate what separates one from the other.
I should add that I'm referring to the second part of your sentence quoted above. I do think figuring out how to execute technique entirely through video instruction is a much hard proposition, yet still not impossible for the right person.
I'd be interested in seeing what you think is the good, bad, or indifferent of the clips I posted above as well... which one should be followed, and why? What's wrong with the others? Or should you do something that's a compromise between each of them?
