Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...
- Thread starter MartialIntent
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Odin said:
That is 100% accurate, I agree completely. I think the issue of this thread is the definition of what actually is a "fight". According to this thread, your MT fighting wouldn't be real as its part of your training and not on the street for life or death.
7sm
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
Dark said:
Amen - This has been my experience as well - a lot of bluster and not much else
yup - while you're out proving your skills, they're pulling out that glock
3) Go into any Irish Pub drink a beer and put your glass upside down on the bar. Thats the sign to have a good drunken throw down and do without pretense or childish bullying. Its nothing new, been around for years
You might want to make sure you've been there a few times before this though - otherwise you might find yourself alone vs. the bar...
And theres' the real crux of the matter - you're playing with more than your own life here. seriously - I've had a few experiences where friends of mine got into trouble because someone was pissed at me - just for doing my job at the time (bouncing).
Great post, Dark
7starmantis said:
O.K. Once again, you said (and again above) that your real fighting/sd experinces add up to a few minutes, which is exactly what I pointed out, so...there was no misunderstanding on my part.
As to your training, I didn't deny it, Just pointed out, it's all simulations of real situations. 3-5 minute round/ring fights....No comparrison at all to the real sd fight. (sorry) Also, paramedic training, great, I'm a first responder also, but, treating the wounded of fights, though noble, is irrelevant to this conversation.
As to the topic of the thread : BAR BRAWLING and S.D in general, there are those that do it for a living in the security industry. (They stop the trainers from getting beat to a pulp) Add to that, coming from bad areas, where blades, bullets, and hand to hand experience is bountiful. Showing up to treat those people, not the same as doing what caused those injuries.
My view of reality blurry??? Your the one arguing "training", substituting that for Reality. Are you seeing straight? Two different definitions here dude. Reality and training aren't equal substitutes. Training is the practice of dealing with reality scenarions. (dry runs if you will)
Bottom line Training and REAL Experience are 2 different animals.
Dark
Purple Belt
7starmantis said:
7starmatis, if I may interject for a minute, but are you serious? No amount of training, even the full-contact training as Odin suggested is comparable to the real world. And allot of the fights you will incounter in the real world won't be from experienced street fighters, bikers or hard-core criminal types but the average joe.
The former I mentioned will shot or stab first and fight later. No training can prepare for that, as my old drill sargent used to say "In combat all this training doesn't mean ****, the three things you will remember are shoot, duck and run..." And sadly he was right, and there are several experts who agree with that fact. Read the links below...
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fightingfacts.html#Tony_Blauer
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/streetrat.html#streetfighting
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Fights_vs_Combat.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Articles_by_Others/street_people.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Articles_by_Others/criminal_mind_by_peyton_quinn.htm
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/rogue.htm
I'm not going to say your training is useless, but training no matter what form it takes is never an end all be all...
Thank you Dark!
Once again put just like I wanted too.
Once again put just like I wanted too.
Odin said:
Hmmmmmm. One on one ( mostly ), close in weight and size, a referee, rules to follow, Gloves on, no weapons, other than natural ones, a fair fight? ... If that's what would replace the real stuff--I'm all for it! Sign me up!
MI why I am surprised at you my clever friend though I will assume you are playing games and being devils advocate here cos usually anyone talking up this sort of thing is fantasising over their lack of raw and real experience.. but this is not what i heard bout you so I will let you away with it 
Otherwise.. this is all very interesting and but to say an artist needs validation from a "real" fight is a very relevant point but it is not the only relevance.. I have a friend who is a midwife.. she has delivered almost 200 beautiful babies.. some were easy some were traumatic and unfortunately some little mites did not even make it and but the point is she does not have babies of her own but she is trained to deliver. If it ever comes her time to have her own well she is amazingly trained to know whether everything is on track..
and you will say duh Jenna it is not the same thing at all.. I would say duh.. I KNOW I am just talking a little laterally here.. Anyway I will go leave you boys alone to play.. sounds like um.. mentalk to me pffft.. ha!
Be good now
J for Jenna
Otherwise.. this is all very interesting and but to say an artist needs validation from a "real" fight is a very relevant point but it is not the only relevance.. I have a friend who is a midwife.. she has delivered almost 200 beautiful babies.. some were easy some were traumatic and unfortunately some little mites did not even make it and but the point is she does not have babies of her own but she is trained to deliver. If it ever comes her time to have her own well she is amazingly trained to know whether everything is on track..
and you will say duh Jenna it is not the same thing at all.. I would say duh.. I KNOW I am just talking a little laterally here.. Anyway I will go leave you boys alone to play.. sounds like um.. mentalk to me
pffft.. ha!Be good now
J for Jenna
I don't know about mentalk. From my experience, the women get into it more often, more heavily, and more ferociously.
Adept
Master Black Belt
Dark said:
If I may...
What I believe Mr Mantis is trying to say is that someone who has no actual exerience, but a good deal of competent training can engage succesfully in a physical confrontation.
Now experience is certainly an incredibly valuable learning tool, but it is possible to come out on top 'on the street' without it.
i'd like to know how many of you actually grew up on the streets, dealing with gangs in the only way you can, overwhelming force and violence. did any of you grow up scrappin or is it just some fantasy.
in a street fight, if my training isn't working, i'll hit you in the head with a hammer. plain and simple. or pull my own gun out. what? the gangsters can do it. shoot i'll do it to if i have to. i'm sure you all could think of a hundred different ways to protect yourself agianst that but i doubt it. i would rather share the mentality if needed of a gang mamber or "bad guy" to win the conflict.
with respect,
painstain
in a street fight, if my training isn't working, i'll hit you in the head with a hammer. plain and simple. or pull my own gun out. what? the gangsters can do it. shoot i'll do it to if i have to. i'm sure you all could think of a hundred different ways to protect yourself agianst that but i doubt it. i would rather share the mentality if needed of a gang mamber or "bad guy" to win the conflict.
with respect,
painstain
Odin
2nd Black Belt
You know this all really seems like a very very pointless argument...I mean think about what your all trying to establish here,your all trying to defend your art in saying that it would work in a street fight when in truth no real answerĀ
.no one really knows, thereĀs so many possibilities and probabilities and if's and butts and what if there were five of them or if one had a hammer or if one had only one leg but he was tkd balckbelt....its all stupid,there is no answer you just dont know what will happen in a streetfight and as such there is no way to prevent such from happening there are no special moves or this and that all you would have is your training and reflexes thatĀs it thereĀs no secret special move in your martial art that will know how to defeat 3 drunken thugs outside a night club on a Friday nightĀ
thatĀs just not what fighting is. ,English MMA fighter Lee Murray was always in the papers over here a lot for fighting,he used to fight with one guy,two guys, beat down 3 guys once all with knifes all inside night clubs and bars,you could say that his martial art worked.....and then in had another fight outside a clubbed and got stabbed and was in hospital for a bit....so did his martial art fail him?or was it chance?
7 years of MMA training against a thug,that was lucky enough to get a good strike inĀ ..again how can you determine if his art maybe or maybe didnĀt work?
Im shocked to think that people think there is some mystic aura surrounded martial arts that if you practice one you turn into chuck Norris and you can beat everyone down just like the movies..its just not realistic and that goes for all martial arts and all fighters.
I think though that thatĀs one thing that you have to actually fight to in order to understand.
As for seeing what your art and you can do,why not have a fight?get padded up find a mate go at itĀ ..and then find some one else and go at itĀ .thatĀs why I like muay thai and MMA I go to loads of fight clubs where I can just go down and try out what IĀve learned in my class in a combat situation.
7 years of MMA training against a thug,that was lucky enough to get a good strike inĀ ..again how can you determine if his art maybe or maybe didnĀt work?
Im shocked to think that people think there is some mystic aura surrounded martial arts that if you practice one you turn into chuck Norris and you can beat everyone down just like the movies..its just not realistic and that goes for all martial arts and all fighters.
I think though that thatĀs one thing that you have to actually fight to in order to understand.
As for seeing what your art and you can do,why not have a fight?get padded up find a mate go at itĀ ..and then find some one else and go at itĀ .thatĀs why I like muay thai and MMA I go to loads of fight clubs where I can just go down and try out what IĀve learned in my class in a combat situation.
Odin
2nd Black Belt
Hand Sword said:
see...but then there is no answer.....what do you guys want?maybe next time you go to class you should suggest that your teacher all take you out on a field trip to the nearest bad neighbour hood so that you can practice your thug streetfighting!( :
Ring fighting or MMA gives you an envirmoment to see hoe well you can fight,and helps you find out what works and what doesnt.
painstain said:
I grew up in a nice little house, in a nice neighborhood.
I was one of the guy that never liked to hurt people, and so others would push and attack me until I hurt someone. They were all like this rabid bunch of monkeys, watching the gorilla get made. It was all ok, unless you were the one I lost it on, and in the end they still laughed at the guy (* and one female bully a few years older than I *) who would get hurt. At one time or another they all felt the pain.
Now is this learning to survive and being shot at and dealing with knives and being hit by a car and multiple opponents? Nothing really.
But you see while I was good in school and was college prep and also in college, I was also stupid and put myself in places that most people do not survive. So, yes, I have had guns pulled on me and I have been shot at standing still and also had the back of a friends Monte Carlo shot out, I have been stabbed and beaten, and hit by a car and a full size truck and blazer, and learned how to climb them to avoid some of the pain of impact.
What works in a fight is doing what you know how to do. Many run away. Were they cowards? Maybe? Did they survive? YES THEY DID! Do they have dents in bones, and try not to remember certain parts of their life? No they do not.
So what works is doing what you know how to do well and doing it before they do it to you. Sometimes it is with a weapon, or improvised weapon, my favorite is still the tuna fish can I kicked in a parking lot right before three car loads of guys got out. Sometimes it is hurting them or if multiple them one or more really fast and really bad or as bad as possible, to make them think or hesitate.
As to pulling your weapon out, and getting an improvised weapon from my experience, if it is not in your hands when the situation starts, you will not be able to get it out in time. One time I dealt with 6 people, (* Got lucky someone came in and grabbed one so I only had 5 :rollseyes: *) we went up and down and even through a plate glass window, (* I kept rolling to avoid gettign cut they did not and got cut up some *), I then talked them to their car (* The police still had not responded, busy with other calls *), one gets into a car, the others attack me again, I step between parked cars to try to limit access to me good idea at the time. Once again I got lucky, for I saw a flash of metal or something and turned towards the one vehicle and the guy was trying to stab me. I passed and pulled him so his head hit the roof, and then disarmed. Now I had the weapon in my hands and his friends all stopped. (* Total elapsed time from first impact to then was actually about 3+ minutes, with most of that time walking them to theri car(s) *) The police were called before the first impact. Yet as I am standing there with the knife in my hands most of their group cut from broken glass, and one who had his face beat in by the other guy who disappeared, and the police roll in. Sweet right? Nope now I have the weapon and the police have no idea what has happened since then.
Long hours of talking to the police and later to the detectives, and later to an Assistant DA. What sold them was the fact that my own knife was still in my back pocket, (* NOTE: I never had a chance to get to it except when they were walking to their car and I did nto expect to need it. *) and was much larger to fit my hand then the one I had taken away. So at that point the police then started questioning the crowd. (* Once again most stated they attacked me and the knife came from the guy in the car. *)
So while I understand the issue of surviving, and doing what one has to do to get through, it just does not come across well on the internet. People have no reason to believe anything, and if you have no others to back up your comments, then it is even harder.
And yes I did my training on the street. Yet there are many times I really do think it might have been nice to have been the guy who just went to school and had never been in a real fight.
Actually you did misunderstand my point. I have no way of knowing the combined total time of all my "street" encounters. My point in saying that was that the combined total time of real self defense fights is very little compared to the combined total of training fights. I said that to show the value in training. You can condition yourself to fight for much longer than you will most likely need in an encounter. You can condition your body to be familiar with more punishment and pain than you will most likely need in an encounter, etc. I'm not saying real life or death fighting isn't valuable experience nor am I saying training is the exact equivalent to self defense fighting. What I did actually say was serious, realisitc training can prepare you for life or death encounters.Hand Sword said:
What your point? All training is simulations of real events. your applying some negative feelings towards simulations. Why is a simulation not able to prepare you for the real thing? This has been my point this whole thread. Not that life or death fighting isn't valid or valuable, but that training can prepare you for these encounters. I dont know how many more times I can say the same thing.Hand Sword said:
It is relevent to this discussion becasue I brought it up to show what happens to peopel who insist on putting themselves in real life or death situations to test or validate themselves. They all end up, sooner or later, needing medical or funeral services. You test yourself in your training. You puch yourself past where you can normally go, you test your determination, skill, conditioning, etc, all in training, not in a life or death grudge match. That is when you survive. That is when you use your training to do whatever is needed to go home alive. Addressing life threatening situations as a test is just naive. Not to mention if you repeatedly look for life and death situations you might want to enlist the services of a good lawyer.
I said there were not people who professional engage in life or death self defense situations. A bouncer is not the same thing, sorry if that messes with your "reality". Plain and simple, self defense is a completely different story than a bouncer engaging in a situation to stop it. I can't believe your even serious with that comment. I lived as a child and young teenager (my parents were missionsaries and lived in the "greatest of places") in 5th ward Houston Texas and the Ukraine....I have seen the "bad areas, where blades and bullets, and hand to hand experience is bountiful". What I'm saying, once again, is that there is training (maybe not the type your used to) that can prepare you for these situations. Also, while we are on this subject, I do carry a handgun (concealed liscense of course) for self defense. I thought we were addressing the type of situations where hand to hand combat was being used. In a real life or death situation I'm shooting and killing the attacker before he gets to me, but sometimes that may not happen so then I train for defending myself with my body.Hand Sword said:
Certainly your not suggesting to be an effective self defense "fighter" (I use that term lightly because to me self defense is not the same as fighting) you must be stabbing, shooting, and injuring people? Are you? Thats where the beauty of simulation comes into play. I dotn have to actually stab a living person to learn how to stag with a blade. I dont shoot living people when I do moving target practice with my handgun...am I less of a self defense shooter then?
I never once said anything about substituting training for reality. Ok, one more time....what I did say was....training can prepare you for these situations. Wow, I've said that same thing alot this thread. One more thing, lets not make assumptions about each others "training". If you read back in the thread we discussed our training habits and you agreed mine was not what you would consider the norm. I dont bring up my training to bolster it, make me seem cool or any of that, but it supports my viewpoint so I'll make a statement about it. The type of fighting we do (using no padding) is anything but a "dry run" in my humble opinion. While I do not actually bleed out from the knife in my side I do see the red paint it left. While I dont get choked unconscious I do have to tap out and realize what that means. I get the cuts, black eyes, busted noses, etc from it and can continue on learning from that. In the "deadly streetz" you dont get that option. You can't learn from mistakes. You die from mistkes, so while you say your in to fighting life or death you obviously cant be actually fighting life or death or you would have either been killing alot of people or have been killed.Hand Sword said:
How many people have you killed?
How many time have you been killed?
If the answer is 0 to any of those questions, you my friend are engaging in "dry runs" as well.
I agree 100%. I have this entire thread....I just believe one can prepare you for the other.Hand Sword said:
First, I never said any training was an end all be all. Wow, once again.....I said training can prepare you to handle these types of situations.Dark said:
To address your first issue, I'm one of those who will shoot first and fight later as well. But we are talking abotu different situations and encounters. I was under the impression we were all on the same page, talking about hand to hand combat past the point of escape, I was evidently wrong.
Bottom line:
Odin is right, there is no reality in thinking you know what will happen on the street, that is why you train so hard and as realistic as possible, covering every possible scenario and situation you can. Does it cover everything, certainly not, but conditioning your mind to adapt to situations and problem solve, figuring things out will help you adapt your training to any situation. There is never any absolutes in a real life or death fight...the only absolute ( at least for me) is that I'm going to do whatever I can to get home alive and that includes what I train to do. See, realistic training to me is bringing out the hammer and knifes and such.
Training includes getting padded up (for some, I personally dont use much padding) and fighting. Do this with people you train with, people you dont train with, people who practice MA, people who dont practice any MA, etc. That is training....and it will be your best friend when you find yourself getting pummled out in the alley behind your favorite resturant.
Just my own opinions,
7sm
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
painstain said:
with respect stain - Yeah, I lived for several years trapped between Section 8 and North East Baltimore. I walked home every night through Patterson Park. And not one person I ever met acted as you suggest, cause we all knew it was a quick trip to the morgue. That's the whole point of gangs - kill one and one hundred come after you and your family. Now I really do respect what your saying here. It was just as bad to be a willing victim. The meek inherit ****.
for the purposes of this thread - do you really think it would be anything other than suicidal to set up a boxing ring for a no holds bared "test" @ a place like 34th st. in Baltimore?
I Gau-ran-****in-tee that it would end in gunfights and bloodshed. Hell, they wouldn't wait for you to set it up - if you don't belong there you get one chance to get the hell out - in the form of a subtle flash of the dealers peice. After that, it's shoot first ask questions later.
To sum it up - I've had my share of street altercations - I wasn't always able to avoid them, but ALL of my real training happened in a safe environment. You will never convince me that a person can not prepare for real combat through good training in a dojo, gym, or what have you because I'm living proof that it can work.
Where I do agree with you and others is that many people are not ready for real combat because their training really isn't that good - but location of said training has little to nothing to do with that. Self defense is about winning however you can, and many people just don't train for it.
Dark
Purple Belt
7starmantis said:
No training can ever prepare you for these types of situations, there is no formula or static method for the way people can and will come at you. Like in one of those articles I posted for you to read, there is a difference between a fight with the average joe and a street fight with a real streetfighter.
Now I was asumed you had a concept of street fighting and common brawling. Not all fights that acure outside of a ring or dojo can be considered street fights.
7starmantis said:
I think the discussion went from bar brawling to street fighting and the whole hand to hand concept got lost.
7star mantis said:
I hate to tell you this but there are absolutes and rules in the so called "street." 90% of experienced "street people" know how to spot the real big bad wolves and how to avoid them. There is a level of respect, understanding and the basic concept of avoiding issues with the real dangerous people.
I'll put experience over training anyday of the week, experience is a hard teacher but the guys with experience can play "weakling" roles, and use that to set up the wonna bes. I agree with allot of what you've said, actually all of what you said but in the limited context of training. But unless your sensei/sifu is an ex-biker, or street fighter you might not learn anything about real fighting situations.
7starmantis said:
Well if your dumb enough to be in a dark alley or any alley to get pummled all I'll say your own fault for being stupid. In the area of fighting purely, you are 100% correct. But, in the area of knowing, understanding and being comfortable with the situation, it takes more then training it takes experience. At least someone with real experience to teach you.
Now if you are one of the very few people who is lucky enough to have an experienced and well seasoned x-streetfighter teaching you, then you are 100% right through and though but that is very rare and you are not getting the average training. But there is a difference between knowing and doing so no matter what experience is part of the equasion. Back to my point, not everyone trains the same or knows the same dirty tricks, as bad as this sounds I carry "glass knives" with me to clubs, to beat the metal detecters. Simply because I know there is going to be someone else there who will as well and if I'm wrong better safe then sorry.
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