Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

[7starmantis]

JeffJ, yes that's true but then again how would we know any better - that we'd really not be so hot when it came to defending ourselves - if we've never put ourselves to the test?

Ok, but what is this "test"? I dont think the only true "test" is brawling on the street. I think you can "test" yourself and your training in many different ways.

I might be the best music notation reader on the planet. I might even tell myself after extensive study of keyboard dynamics that I was actually a pretty damn good pianist. If I never put my hands on the keyboard and play the music how would I know? Moreover I might be the sort of person who is quite happy to tell the world what a proficient pianist I am. To the extent that after a while I don't actually want to play the piano for personal fear it'd show me in a truer light.

I dont think "playing the music" would equate to getting in fights. For a martial artist the "playing of the music" can be done in many ways, least of all in my book is simply getting into fights around town.

The streets is surely where it's at?

No, I disagree. The times I have had to protect myself on the street were much shorter, less physically demanding, and over way too soon to develop alot of fear. In contrast, with my kung fu brothers I have fought much much longer, harder, been hurt alot worse, lost much more blood, been exponentially more tired and "worn out", and developed alot more "fear" of what was going to happen to me. I dont think "the street" is where its at...not at all.

7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

No, I disagree. The times I have had to protect myself on the street were much shorter, less physically demanding, and over way too soon to develop alot of fear. In contrast, with my kung fu brothers I have fought much much longer, harder, been hurt alot worse, lost much more blood, been exponentially more tired and "worn out", and developed alot more "fear" of what was going to happen to me. I dont think "the street" is where its at...not at all.

7sm

Very true, I've been bloodied, worn out, and battered far worse in the dojo than I ever have in a real life fight. If you are worried about "the street" Martial Intent, try it out there. From the sounds of your neighborhood, it should be pretty easy. Or, try training with people from different schools and styles. That can be pretty eye opening.

Jeff

 

[Hand Sword]

Training in the dojo is just what it is--Training. There's no comparison to a savage, knock down fight in the street and dojo fights. People in the dojo aren't trying to kill you, stab, you, rape you, pummel you etc. You should be very , very, thankful for the short altercations, where you didn't get much damage. I've been in and see(n) many fights that go on for a time, and no dojo feeling, fight, or injury comes close. The bad intentions, and scenarios aren't there like they are in street fights.

 

[MartialIntent]

Ok, but what is this "test"? I dont think the only true "test" is brawling on the street. I think you can "test" yourself and your training in many different ways.

The test *is* brawling on the street. It's the test of how those of us supposedly adept at SD can actually perform in the task we've apparently trained for. The point is, if [and let's face it, it's still a statistically improbable if] and when it comes to that test, many who genuinely believe on the basis of their in-house training, that they may pass that test, will actually fail. We're progressively geared to believe we can cut it on the streets on the basis of our protracted training, our disciplined kata and our extensive randori, but at the day's end, this is largely theory.

In all this, I'm solely referring to training martial arts for SD - if you train for competition or for fitness then that's another thing altogether and not what I'm getting at.

My question is, if you train in your art for SD what scenario are you actually training for? As you say, in the dojo you can fight longer, with better form, with greater strength and more finesse - really it's the best performance all round. But if you're training in any way for SD then as you know, it's not about form and finesse, it's about directness and finishing - the only sort of training I can think that'd be akin would be some sort of sparring specifically for KO. Ultimately, I think large amounts of practise hall training and capability in SD should not be equated so readily.

And this is why I think it'll be good to get the arts claiming betterment of your SD skills out and about into the real world.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

:asian:

 

[MartialIntent]

Training in the dojo is just what it is--Training. There's no comparison to a savage, knock down fight in the street and dojo fights. People in the dojo aren't trying to kill you, stab, you, rape you, pummel you etc.

Exactly. But what happens after you've been training your SD all those years, increasingly firm in the belief that you can rightly handle yourself. What happens then when someone is actually trying to stab or rape you? I'd say few if any arts would claim to provide no SD benefits - it's inherent in the very nature of martial art. Unfortunately the SD tenets of our arts have the notion ingrained in us that we are prepared for a real battle when actually, we're not. As you say, dojo and real world are not comparable. And this is the crux of the matter - that many of us believe our sparring skill is translatable to the outside world.

I think it'd benefit us all to get out there. Naturally, I think it'd be way too much of a shake up in our beliefs though and too radical of thought to consider something as outlandish as the Bar Brawl Evangelism. Of course it's a contrived situation to make a point but nevertheless, even if all objections are covered [as in the initial post] few would care to challenge themselves or their art.

Most of us are complacent in our beliefs that the SD training in our arts has merit in the real world.

Come join us on the streets!! It'll be an awakening for us all and for our arts.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

The test *is* brawling on the street. It's the test of how those of us supposedly adept at SD can actually perform in the task we've apparently trained for. The point is, if [and let's face it, it's still a statistically improbable if] and when it comes to that test, many who genuinely believe on the basis of their in-house training, that they may pass that test, will actually fail. We're progressively geared to believe we can cut it on the streets on the basis of our protracted training, our disciplined kata and our extensive randori, but at the day's end, this is largely theory.

Yes it is indeed! I don't know how many martial artists i've seen get handeled, rather easily, for real. You can't simulate that training.

 

[Hand Sword]

Exactly. But what happens after you've been training your SD all those years, increasingly firm in the belief that you can rightly handle yourself. What happens then when someone is actually trying to stab or rape you? I'd say few if any arts would claim to provide no SD benefits - it's inherent in the very nature of martial art. Unfortunately the SD tenets of our arts have the notion ingrained in us that we are prepared for a real battle when actually, we're not. As you say, dojo and real world are not comparable. And this is the crux of the matter - that many of us believe our sparring skill is translatable to the outside world.

I think it'd benefit us all to get out there. Naturally, I think it'd be way too much of a shake up in our beliefs though and too radical of thought to consider something as outlandish as the Bar Brawl Evangelism. Of course it's a contrived situation to make a point but nevertheless, even if all objections are covered [as in the initial post] few would care to challenge themselves or their art.

Most of us are complacent in our beliefs that the SD training in our arts has merit in the real world.

Come join us on the streets!! It'll be an awakening for us all and for our arts.

Respects!

That's all I was getting at. I was agreeing with you. You should train hard in the dojo, to prepare the best that you can for a real SD situation. But, you're right, the only way to know is to do it. I came up in the streets, and am still there, at work too. I get into it and have done so many times over. The training, if done with the right mind set in preparation for the real stuff (if that's your thing) will work for you.

 

[MartialIntent]

Yes it is indeed! I don't know how many martial artists i've seen get handeled, rather easily, for real. You can't simulate that training.

Exactly my friend. I know it's an old chestnut and I've mentioned it earlier, but Bruce Lee was notorious for picking fights on the streets of HK in his formative years. OK, so it can be argued that he was nothing more than a miscreant at that stage but few can argue over what he became. I believe this street-fighting was inherent in producing not only a fighter but a *thinker* of Bruce Lee's standing [and no, I'm not a JKD practitioner ].

Undoubtedly it was dangerous, ol' Bruce could have never survived to become the icon he did, but that's the point. Real world fights are dangerous, the adrenaline surge is an incredible aid to clarity of thought but if one has never experienced this situation then how does one know how to correctly utilise this natural response let alone respond to the attack?

Now, I'm not belittling the training we all do in our clubs and schools, I'm simply suggesting that many of us may do well to re-evaluate exactly what we do know of SD and real world fight situations and exactly how far our apparent SD skill would stretch when trouble kicks off.

I say it's the very fact of this acute street-fight "training" being out of your comfort zone ie. out from under the wing of the rules that would exponentially increase our real-world fighting skill - and in doing so would, through this Bar Brawl Evangelism, potentially bring back many to the martial arts.

Question: a street corner, a 250lb gangsta with a 7 inch blade surprise attacks an unprepared "empty hand" 100lb female martial artist. Who wins? Seems like a no brainer...

Question: a street corner, a 250lb gangsta with a 7 inch blade attacks an "empty hand" 100lb female martial artist who has time-spent fighting on the street, adapting to situations, rolling with the punches, adept and *experienced* at handling and defending against live blades *for real*, with *practical* live and first-hand knowledge of key strike points etc. etc. etc. Where would you put your money this time?

The outcome may be the came in both cases but as a martial artist we do ourselves no favors by being complicit in the attrition of our skeptical beliefs - I mean we start training SD thinking "how can I ever beat a guy with a weapon and 100lb on me?" but gradually through our training we have our natural skepticism eroded - we believe what we do on the mats is effective despite the fact that we *personally* have never proven it's effectiveness to us - and so it goes until the one day we're utterly convinced of our preparedness and bam! we're attacked and have no notion how to react to the truly dangerous, unpredicted and unwarranted attack.

Let's get out there...

the only way to know is to do it.

Yup, it's a tragedy that the first chance many of us have to prove we actually *can't* cut it, is our last...

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

We are out there! I think that those of us that take the reality approach did so before joining a dojo and training. I think it's what drove us to get into a dojo, and train. I have found it was always our kind that questions techniques, and works with them to get them ready. It's the "beleivers" that get the rude awakening (hopefully, they're still around after to have learned something and put it to use). I also came up in "the old school", where, self defense was the focus! The commercialization over the years has eroded this for most.

 

[Hand Sword]

By the way your screen name is what it should be about in my opinion. Take care of that first, than all of the benefits of the other stuff will come into play, for real.

 

[MartialIntent]

We are out there! I think that those of us that take the reality approach did so before joining a dojo and training. I think it's what drove us to get into a dojo, and train. I have found it was always our kind that questions techniques, and works with them to get them ready. It's the "beleivers" that get the rude awakening (hopefully, they're still around after to have learned something and put it to use). I also came up in "the old school", where, self defense was the focus! The commercialization over the years has eroded this for most.

I agree, the reality approach has gone and just as my Bar Brawl Evangelism is an utterly contrived situation, so too is the SD approach within our martial arts training. I mean, we're training for eventualities we hope will never happen [fair enough] but we're often training and dealing in irrelevancies for eventualities which, when they do happen, we're simply not equipped.

I mean, that's one thing - as you've mentioned earlier, it's nigh on impossible to train *every* situation, let alone most of the seriously dangerous ones - and furthermore, training and *doing* aren't equivalent. But for me, the problem lies in the notion that what we've trained in SD somehow sheds us of our shortcomings. If as martial artists, we can't step back and take stock of what we can and can't do, some of us may needlessly bring trouble down on our heads. I say the best way to evaluate our SD skill is in a live situation, hence the mobile-ring "outreach" that I'm hypothesising.

Fear can be a bad thing...
Folk don't like getting hurt so we make great efforts to avoid that when training.
Schools don't like dancing with the compensation culture so we go easy and hold back on the techniques...

The result is the dilution from the highest peaks of our arts at their inception into the new ego-flattering systems created by many breakaway instructors and more annoyingly most of our traditional arts gone the way -as you say- of the dirty denaro. In this day and age, old-school is the new radicalism!

It's difficult to admit to fear and certainly, fear isn't always faced in the practise hall. I believe it's conveniently swept under the mats and hidden amongst the techniques. We need a stance that says, yes if you're training SD, you may get hurt - I take it further and say if you're training SD, you NEED to get hurt. If we aren't prepared to be in danger and we aren't prepared to be hurt then at the very least we -and our schools who take that attitude- should neither be thinking of ourselves or proclaiming ourselves as having efficacy in the SD arena.

OK, so my Bar Brawl Evangelism is far out [though I think it has merit ] but assuming I'm unable to sell the idea to my venture capitalist brethren, I'll ask, what's the best vehicle for training SD? And how might it be practically implemented or will it always be of necessity an "underground" fight club.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

No, Your bar brawl thing isn't that far out. I agree with it! One can get real experience there, or a real awakening. From my beginnings, I was always advised to getinto an industry where one could try their stuff out for real, legally. Club/bar security is a great tool for that. You get a dose of what works for you, and if you get into trouble, you have help--LOL! (After a while, too, you'll get over the fear of encounters.)

I say take your Aikido training the way you get in class, but, away from the dojo, add the reality touch to it! Look at Steven Seagal's way of doing it! If it's too soft, take up a Kempo/Kenpo system, or militaristic style!

As for the capitalists, I've been fighting this for years, beleive me! They'll never buy the pain, and train hard way, they'll lose studets, which leads to loss of money.

Hey, listen, Your not getting any argument from me on this, I support you.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

From my beginnings, I was always advised to getinto an industry where one could try their stuff out for real, legally. Club/bar security is a great tool for that. You get a dose of what works for you, and if you get into trouble, you have help--LOL! (After a while, too, you'll get over the fear of encounters.)

I ended up getting into a job that did the same for me, even though I didn't expect it too. While an animal control officer it seemed that about every two weeks someone would take offense at me and attack. Great leaning experience.

MartialIntent, I really like the different way you presented this debate. Added a little energey to it instead of the same tired old arguments and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. IMO, if someone wants to be sure about thier SD cappabilites, they need to take matters into thier own hands. Will all the liability and insurance problems many schools face today, many instructors just won't add the realism that would be of benifit to thier students. Many ways to do this, Hand Swords suggestion about being a bouncer is great.

 

[7starmantis]

The only problem with this is that your making a few huge assumptions in your debate. First is that "the street" is some magical place where training has no merit, where superhuman "gangstas" attack with speed and power not known to normal human beings. Where the legalities of the fights make them have some kind of pull or respect over fights performed under supervision and coaching. This place has some mystic force field that zaps muscle memory, training, and common sense. Where the very nature of fighting is progressed through death and lost blood. Where those who have engaged in its fights have gained and learned more in a few fights than a martial artist could in 30 or 40 years of training. The second is that training done within the walls of a school is somehow lacking and connot cover or deal with real life situations. Your assuming that training done in a school is soft, slow, unrealistic, and lazy.

While I am in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of pure self defense fighting and I'm not trying to say that some schools dont train poorly and lazily, I simply do not believe that "the street" holds some force that invalidates my training. What your overlooking is real alive self defense training that goes on in the halls of many, many schools throughout the world. Fighting on "the street" is dangerous and leaves no room for mistakes, but your training should follow the same mold. Again, its all about your attitude as you train. If your goofing off staring at the hot chick in front of you then your right, but if you approach your training seriously and address real self defense, you can train yourself to be ready for "the street".

Training in the dojo is just what it is--Training. There's no comparison to a savage, knock down fight in the street and dojo fights. People in the dojo aren't trying to kill you, stab, you, rape you, pummel you etc. You should be very , very, thankful for the short altercations, where you didn't get much damage. I've been in and see(n) many fights that go on for a time, and no dojo feeling, fight, or injury comes close. The bad intentions, and scenarios aren't there like they are in street fights.

First, your getting caught up in semantics of the words being used. While I agree that words can create and set a mood, thats why we use words like combat, life or death, etc. Your again assuming a certain type of training and applying it to all training. In my training we dont use words like "sparring" or "playing hands" its "combat". You should create the same scenarios in your training that you could encounter outsdie it. The actual intent of my attacker isn't going to change the way I combat him (if it does your training is lacking). I've seen many, many street fights and such as a paramedic in Houston Texas, but I have to propose that if your "street fight" ranges on beyond say a minute or two, you should really look at your training again. I'm not talking about "street fights" where the two are trying to beat down each other or establish dominance, but where I'm going for eyes, knees, etc. Anything else is a mistake on this magical "street" your discussing. If the scenarios and such aren't there in training, maybe you should ask "why".

My question is, if you train in your art for SD what scenario are you actually training for? As you say, in the dojo you can fight longer, with better form, with greater strength and more finesse - really it's the best performance all round. But if you're training in any way for SD then as you know, it's not about form and finesse, it's about directness and finishing - the only sort of training I can think that'd be akin would be some sort of sparring specifically for KO. Ultimately, I think large amounts of practise hall training and capability in SD should not be equated so readily.

I didn't say anything about strength, better form, or finesse. While I agree with what your saying, I dont think its right to apply it to all training, I think you would be surprised at what goes on in some schools. As for the KO, that is not the ultimate objective of self defense, thats only one menas to the end. The objective is to go home alive and in one piece if possible. I think the point is to look at your training (if your training for SD) and make it as realistic as possible, the point is not in my opinion to go get in life threatening situations to "test" your resolve. If you can't test yourself outside that situation I would propose that you may not pass the test you put yourself in.

The bottom line is that the street holds no powers that are absent from the four walls of a school. Alive serious training is a must in SD training. I will also say that approaching a self defense scenario from a sparring standpoint will probably get you killed, but I would not say that its not possible to prepare yourself for a real self defense situation without putting yourself in one. Thats absurd. It all goes back to you and how you train. While it is easy for training to become lax and soft, it takes a serious effort to keep it alive and real. I have seen nothing to date that makes me think its impossible for me to prepare myself within my own training. I've used my training several times to protect myself...I have looked at my training and I serious do not think I was just lucky, I see the benefits of my training in my fighting.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "the street" does hold dangers but those dangers are not something impossible to train for.

7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Wow. That is, hands down, the best argument I've ever heard in this endless debate. Kudos 7.

Jeff

 

[MartialIntent]

The only problem with this is that your making a few huge assumptions in your debate. First is that "the street" is some magical place where training has no merit, where superhuman "gangstas" attack with speed and power not known to normal human beings.

7sm, many thanks for the contribution to the debate.

OK, first off, the street is not a magickal place - a sentiment to which I do not recall alluding to. The street is a nice, safe place to hang out - statistically speaking - but if you pay any heed to your newspapers the truth would appear to lie completely contrary to such statistics. The streets have potential to be highly and mortally dangerous. Alas, some of us I believe are so swamped in our own complacency and martial conceit that we edge ever closer to failure of acknowledgement of these dangers, trusting instead our own [unproven] SD training.

Again, I'm not belittling anyone's training. What I'm saying is that gauging one's performance in an real altercation can at best be guesswork, without ever testing one's mettle in the live situation.

Gangstas, superhuman? Who said that? The simple fact is that where a gangsta may differ from you or I is in their intent to follow through. I use the term "gangsta" to pinpoint a stereotypical street hoodlum. OK, let's be honest, he may be chap who may well have no skill and he may well not be 250 lb of muscle, but he is proven willing to carry through an intent to filch your purse or wallet [or worse] and back up that intent with action and commitment. I'm sure of course, there are many pleasant and jovial gangstas out there helping their communities Apologies to our gangsta brethren for any gratuitous stereotyping...

This place has some mystic force field that zaps muscle memory, training, and common sense. Where the very nature of fighting is progressed through death and lost blood. Where those who have engaged in its fights have gained and learned more in a few fights than a martial artist could in 30 or 40 years of training.

Again, nope. Nothing mystic about this place. At its most primal though, it's a place where anyone with intent can attack you with neither fear or concern for damaging you or killing you, nor of actual retribution from you or punishment from the law. *These* are the things you can never train in the dojo.

The second is that training done within the walls of a school is somehow lacking and connot cover or deal with real life situations.

Indeed it is lacking. To my knowledge, no genuine martial arts student ever tried to kill another student within the walls of a school. As extreme as it sounds, *that* is why this training is lacking.

Your assuming that training done in a school is soft, slow, unrealistic, and lazy.

I have had the pleasure to train in many practise halls. Seldom have I encountered one where students do not give 100% commitment to their sparring or randori. But yes I am saying to a great extent it's unrealistic simply because in a sterile environment it's impossible to train for a live SD situation. We can approximate certainly, though often our approximations are borne out of ignorance and are not representative of techniques [for want of a better word] that real attackers use to achieve their goal. Choke holds and bear hugs? Heck in my art we train for wrist grabs, LOL. All of these have their place within their arts but not as part of an effective SD strategy.

While I am in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of pure self defense fighting and I'm not trying to say that some schools dont train poorly and lazily, I simply do not believe that "the street" holds some force that invalidates my training. What your overlooking is real alive self defense training that goes on in the halls of many, many schools throughout the world. Fighting on "the street" is dangerous and leaves no room for mistakes, but your training should follow the same mold.

This is my point exactly, that fighting on the street *is* dangerous and more pertinently, does leave no room for mistakes. I mean, what's the very worst that can happen to you when sparring full contact? A bloody nose? A broken toe? At the end, your sparring partner has concern for your injuries, as do your compadres. It's by no means a hostile situation.

You're completely correct in saying that training should be such that it doesn't allow for mistakes but heck, make a mistake in your randori session and well, nobody gets killed...

Again, its all about your attitude as you train. If your goofing off staring at the hot chick in front of you then your right, but if you approach your training seriously and address real self defense, you can train yourself to be ready for "the street".

I'd *so* like to believe this. For me, what happens on the mats and what happens when someone lunges at you with the half smashed neck of a beer bottle are a million miles apart and not so lazily reconcilable.

The problem is that all through our MA training as we progress through the ranks, building our ring or mat experience and developing our skill and speed, we're deluding our subconscious into believing we are ready for the street as though this "safe" test-tube skillset will automatically translate into workable live fighting competency. For me, I don't believe this is the case. I had my skillset disproven to me somewhere around the middle of my martial career to date, and it forced a rethink of what I thought I knew and of how good a fighter I thought I was.

I think there really is an odor of complacency and conceit that hangs heavy over SD practices in the martial community. Some pay nothing more than lip service to SD techniques. Some are happily ignorant dealing in irrelevancies but ultimately it's the prevailing attitude of vanity and self-satisfaction with our SD systems that are convincing us that the training we have somehow elevates us above the level of street hoodlums.

Many of us may do well to take up the Bar Brawl Evangelism challenge and get out and about a bit more.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that "the street" does hold dangers but those dangers are not something impossible to train for.

I genuinely wish you well.

Respects!

 

[lonecoyote]

My last street fight, shortly before I quit drinking (no coincidence) - I reached out to shake hands, and whack! I caught a sucker punch right to the jaw, it shook me up and he landed a couple more before I caught and started dropping bombs. We both did a lot of damage, we clinched, went to the ground. I had a guillotine, couldn't sink it, he was mounted, couldn't move though. We stopped. Drunk, hurt, tired, and embarrased. It was ugly, stupid, and I didn't learn a damned thing except not to shake hands with that guy. I was cut bad over the eye, bleeding from the mouth, he was hurt too. Lost a couple of friends and a favorite hangout. All of this in my late twenties no less, when I should have known better. Stupid, meaningless, ridiculous streetfighting. You can have it, it's for kids, drunks, and the socially retarded. Street predators look for prey, not street fights, so you're trying to compare apples and oranges anyway.

 

[MartialIntent]

My last street fight, shortly before I quit drinking (no coincidence) - I reached out to shake hands, and whack! I caught a sucker punch right to the jaw, it shook me up and he landed a couple more before I caught and started dropping bombs. We both did a lot of damage, we clinched, went to the ground. I had a guillotine, couldn't sink it, he was mounted, couldn't move though. We stopped. Drunk, hurt, tired, and embarrased. It was ugly, stupid, and I didn't learn a damned thing except not to shake hands with that guy. I was cut bad over the eye, bleeding from the mouth, he was hurt too. Lost a couple of friends and a favorite hangout. All of this in my late twenties no less, when I should have known better. Stupid, meaningless, ridiculous streetfighting. You can have it, it's for kids, drunks, and the socially retarded. Street predators look for prey, not street fights, so you're trying to compare apples and oranges anyway.

Yep, a great many martial artists would end up the same way, lolling in a pool of their own AB negative. The problem is that many of those same martial artists may have otherwise convinced themselves - and in fact been subject to protracted martial indoctrination, to have them truly believe they could have actually cut it in an unfortunate case like this.

Apples and oranges? Mmmmm...

Respects!

 

[lonecoyote]

Well, I did cut it. I survived, and so you, could you have done much better, evangelist, what could you learn with your mock staged streetfights that would have given you what it takes, to do better than I, or better than any one, martial artist or otherwise? How could your ideas about training protect you any better than traditional training. I hit hard and so did he, two strong, stubborn and stupid men. You wouldn't have done much better against either of us. Sounds like you're thinking of selling a little snake oil yourself, like the ads in the back of a certain magazine "UNREALISTIC TRAINING WILL GET YOU KILLED! LEARN THE SECRETS OF REAL STREETFIGHTING!" They shout. Been there for years, this is nothing new. Apples and oranges are both nutritious and delicious, I enjoy them too.