Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

[Hand Sword]

I agree, having been in and apart of many scraps. My focus during the brief debate was on the guard position being used during a street fight. How viable is it? Usually, it's the thing to do when on your back, but, detremental during a real fight? Can you control your opponents blows, making yours more effective (as was argued)? Theory says yes! Reality? Not very often from what I've seen. Gravity is on their side, you're on the bottom--GET OUT!!

 

[Hand Sword]

Hopefully some grapplers will respond to this as well. Everyone should try and play both sides of the argument, and be honest!

 

[14 Kempo]

Well I can imagine I'm going to catch hell for this one, but it is my belief and something that I will always keep in mind ... the person you are in an altercation with, is never alone and therefore to pull guard is not a good thing. While I'm trying to control the person's posture, his buddies are kicking my head in. Now, on the otherhand, if I'm able to instantaneously secure an armbar and snap the elbow and jump up, before the guy on top punches my lights out, or jambs his fingers into my eyes or throat, I'm good. The deal is, there are no rules in a streetfight, there are no winners, there are only survivors and I want to be on the survival side of things. I'm a stand-up fighter and I'll do anything I can to stay on my feet where I'm as mobile as I can be.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree, and if reversed and you are in a guard position after you've knocked down or tackled the opponent?

 

[14 Kempo]

I agree, and if reversed and you are in a guard position after you've knocked down or tackled the opponent?

To be quite honest, I don't see myself tackling someone, so that scenario is out. Secondly, if I knock someone down, they better think about staying there, I would not jump on top of them, I would keep my feet under me and scan my surroundings for his friends. As mentioned before, there are no winners, I am there to survive. I have no reason to stand around claiming a win, I have no problem in leaving the area.

 

[Hand Sword]

I hear you and agree.

Any grapplers care to chime in???? If down, use the guard position? Any ideas about getting bit, slammed, etc..? Is the hold viable for real? EAsier for you to do the things mentioned to your oipponent? Them to you?

 

[bluekey88]

While I generally feel every technique and tactic can be viable under the CORRECT circumstances...pulling gaurd in a street fight is something very different to pulling gaurd in match.

I point to an example from the Ultimate fighter reality series (two seasons ago I believe). Two of the guys got into an altercation in the backyard and started fighting on the concrete patio. One guy tried to pull gaurd, the other guy picked him p and slammed him on his head...'twas nasty. Lots of blood. Not like getting slammed on a mat.

This doesn't invalidate the use the gaurd...but it certainly highlights risks that one would not normally see if one only looks at professional fighters ina fairly controlled environment.

Peace,
Erik

 

[MJS]

I'll toss my 2 pennies in. 2 people...I don't care how good of a grappler you are, you're going to get stomped. We saw good examples of this with two fight quest episodes...the Krav Maga and Kajukenbo. We all saw what happened. That being said, my first concern would be doing my best to get back to my feet.

Against 1 person...while grappling is certainly a must IMO, to have inyour toolbox, I tend to think that sometimes alot of people think that it means that its still ok to go to the ground. Now, going on the situation that was presented, I would say that an offensive guard, rather than a defensive one, would be the way to go. If you're down, attempt to use your knees as part of your defense. In other words, keep them between you and your opponent. Another method would be to kick at your opponent, in an attempt to keep him back. Are you going to get kicked by him? Well, anythings a possibility.

If you do fully apply the guard, don't turn it into a cuddle match. Why hold him here, doing nothing else? Paul Vunak brings up some great points in this clip, which was posted on this forum. Goes right back to my comment on the offensive guard. I'm sure some will say that the thought of biting someone is gross. Well, yes it is, but...if its a matter of me getting my rear kicked, or having a chance to survive, gross or not, I'm taking that chance.

If the situation were reversed, and I was in the guard, same thing. We see G&P (ground and pound) work with success in the ring, so why not do the same thing in the street? The groin is wide open for shots, so take advantage of it. Once its broken, escape.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

The school's the school.

The ring's the ring.

The street's the street.

Never must these be confused.

 

[newGuy12]

Once its broken, escape.

Right! If the opponent is versed in grappling, they will somehow "pass the guard" (or whatever it is called), they will then get some mount that cannot be easily broken, and then things have gone from BAD to OH_NO_THIS_SUCKS!

The non-grappler should try to escape. Otherwise, their goose is cooked. It is only a matter of time. We have seen this, over and over. Special cases may exist, but the overwhelming body of evidence is that if it goes to the ground, the grappler will get some submission. This cannot be denied.

The school's the school.

The ring's the ring.

The street's the street.

Never must these be confused.

Yes, yes. Here comes the "First Mate" out of nowhere. He has a broken bottle and he then sticks it into you. This is no joke. Get back on the feet as soon as possible. You must be able to move around. Too many things can go very bad otherwise.

If you can stack the opponent(s) <-- that's right! you must consider there are more people coming! Then knock two of them down, and seek to run to a different position. This is not the contest in the tournament here, after all.

 

[Hand Sword]

I think you all are along my way of thinking as well. That's what I was trying to say in the other thread about trying to grapple over ground fight and about the guard position. The claim was made that it was easier for the applier of the guard to bite his opponent than the opponent him. It was also unlikely that he would be picked up and slammed etc... I had contended that if you had to slap a guard on due to unfortunate circumstances on the street, you were asking for trouble.

 

[MJS]

I think you all are along my way of thinking as well. That's what I was trying to say in the other thread about trying to grapple over ground fight and about the guard position. The claim was made that it was easier for the applier of the guard to bite his opponent than the opponent him. It was also unlikely that he would be picked up and slammed etc... I had contended that if you had to slap a guard on due to unfortunate circumstances on the street, you were asking for trouble.

I was reading a few posts in that other thread. The person stated that the person who is in the guard, ie: having it applied to them, would have a hard time applying a bite. If other words, lets use you and I. I have you in my guard. Its easier for me to apply the bite. Could you bite me? Anything is possible, but IMHO, the person applying has more control, hense more ease to bite.

 

[newGuy12]

Right. If someone knows the Judo, they can of course throw the opponent, right? That's right. Full power, and you do not assist with the landing, no. You give that full power throw! The opponent may not get back up.

You throw him into the wall, into traffic, down the stairs, no one cares.

The grappler, he can perhaps get the good hold, the opponent may pass out. Or, he may dislocate something or break something. Okay, real fast motion -- that guy is no threat now.

But, for the TKD guy or Karate Person to go about trying to do this? ??? This is insane, its asking for trouble.

Paul Vunak or some RBSD or some grappler can do this. As for me, I'm trying HARD to get that freaking guy off of me!!! Make him go away, at least to freaking kicking range, and I am out of there! None of this wrestling if I can have anything to do about it!

 

[newGuy12]

From that video that was posted earlier, remember, Paul Vunak will go for the bite to the face in a N.Y. minute. He was teaching -- you do not hesitate -- you bite the face hard.

If they opponent persists with the hold, and reverses it, okay, you go ahead and bite!

Once the opponent's mind is confused, and loses focus somehow becuase of this, though -- I say, make the move, get that sucker off of you!

That's why I wish I knew enough grapping to understand how to escape the hold. I would not seek to know enough to win the contest, only enough to have a good chance of breaking some hold, that is all I need -- to escape!

Then, you can kick and punch!

 

[Hand Sword]

I was reading a few posts in that other thread. The person stated that the person who is in the guard, ie: having it applied to them, would have a hard time applying a bite. If other words, lets use you and I. I have you in my guard. Its easier for me to apply the bite. Could you bite me? Anything is possible, but IMHO, the person applying has more control, hense more ease to bite.

As with him and through my many experiences, I have to disagree. In a real fight, if you have to "guard" your opponent, you're on the ground. You got there by getting tackled, or dropped with a shot. They've landed on top of you. You're probably not with it mentally, at least completely, and the guard is a desperation measure, where you clamp them to you. Same with MMA fights on tv. Theory wise---this and that can be done etc.. and true, it can. However, application from what I see--those punches get landed, picked up and slammed, and if clamping to ease the pressure, and they can't move--they'll bite you. Remember the bite will occur out of desperation on their part. That will be because they are clamped or pinned down somehow. The appler won't think to bite off the bat, that will be your opponents choice first. Your trying to cover somehow to avoid further damage usually.

 

[MJS]

As with him and through my many experiences, I have to disagree. In a real fight, if you have to "guard" your opponent, you're on the ground. You got there by getting tackled, or dropped with a shot. They've landed on top of you. You're probably not with it mentally, at least completely, and the guard is a desperation measure, where you clamp them to you. Same with MMA fights on tv. Theory wise---this and that can be done etc.. and true, it can. However, application from what I see--those punches get landed, picked up and slammed, and if clamping to ease the pressure, and they can't move--they'll bite you. Remember the bite will occur out of desperation on their part. That will be because they are clamped or pinned down somehow. The appler won't think to bite off the bat, that will be your opponents choice first. Your trying to cover somehow to avoid further damage usually.

Looking back at one of my earlier posts, I stated that clinching up with the person in the guard would not be my first pick. Actually wrapping your legs around them into full guard was my last option, but if it was the last resort, I suggested to turn it into an offensive guard rather than defensive.

I really don't think that anything is sure shot. Look at regular sparring. How many times do we still take shots even though we're blocking? We take alot of shots, so I'm kind of confused on your line of thinking when you said punches still get in from the guard.

Additionally, the guard shouldn't be static. While the guard looks like the person applying is in the worse position, its really the other way around. I disagree when you said they'll bite first. Remember, I said that the guard, IMO, if used on the street, should be offensive, therefore, offensive movements will be first on my mind.

While the question was the closed guard, when it comes down to it, one shouldn't have to be limited to just that guard method. There are a number of other things that can be done from that position, so why not use them?