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[MartialIntent]

7starmantis,

Thanks once again. When I sat down and typed this thread, I was setting an introspective challenge to each martial artist who trains SD techniques and philosophies without much in the way of consideration for the real, mortally dangerous application of those techniques and that philosophy. Now, let me lay something out which may sound glib but is in no ways intended to... I issue that challenge to everyone *except* you and those who train as you do. That's not being facetious, it's being sincere because the description of your training methods paints a picture of pushing the boundaries from the theoretical out into the real. This is something I have to say, I genuinely hadn't encountered officially as part of any TMA though I've been party to after hours "lock ins", disorganized "park meets" etc. etc. So, all I can say is, my hat's off to you and I think there are many who could benefit from taking direction from or at least paying attention to your SD training methods, in particular the following two points:

one of the main principles of my "style" is not relying on anything to drop a person. We continue fighting until the person is not a threat anymore. We explain to beginners that you dont stop fighting when you knock a person down, you fight them on the way down and into the pavement until they cannot threaten you any longer.

and...

In fact, I train to (when neccesary) be much more violent and vicious than most martial artist could stomach.

These are skill and mindsets which personally, I've had to leave the safety of my dojo to acquire and which honestly, I have not seen condoned, let alone being included as part of any core syllabus trained in a TMA club or school. They are the sort of additions to one's defensive portfolio which I'm trying to address through this thread feeling that there's a dearth [fear even] of such boldness within the dojos - or at least the one's I have experienced. Perhaps those places of training I have visited have been staunchly conservative. I am happy though to know there are radical methodologies such as yours being utilized out there.

In any case, I applaud you for your breadth of training and for striving to engineer your practise SD situations so they mirror the real world as accurately as possible.

I can only say one more thing - that if I believed your approach was the norm I'd not have initiated the thread, however I remain firm in the opinion that your training style still remains in the minority while the general martial arts populus remains happily ignorant - as is somewhat apparent reading through any one of several threads here on MT, some archive and some current.

You should write a book...

Respects!

 

[stickarts]

Training to be able to defend oneself and yet doing everything possible to avoid a fight and be peaceful is the great paradox in martial arts!
For the sake of argument, let's say this:
For many, martial arts is like having an insurance policy: you hope you won't get into a real assault but want to be better prepared in case you are.
Do you go out of your way to test your insurance?
Will you deliberately crash your car to find out if your car insurance policy will work like you hoped? Is it a victory if you get a cracked skull from the accident but your insurance company comes through for you and pays the hospital bill? :0)
Not saying you shouldn't do some pressure testing. Just saying how far do you test it before the cons outweight the pro's.
Just another viewpoint to join the fray.....:0)

 

[MartialIntent]

Do you go out of your way to test your insurance?
Will you deliberately crash your car to find out if your car insurance policy will work like you hoped? Is it a victory if you get a cracked skull from the accident but your insurance company comes through for you and pays the hospital bill? :0)

Interesting analogy to insurance! The sole task of insurance is to compensate you as appropriate in the case of damage or injury. My response would have to be then, would you really buy an insurance policy that you weren't entirely sure would pay out if the worst happened? You're in Good Hands?? Hmmm... Maybe not, if year in and year out, you've been buying into the no-payout-policy.

OK, so I *am* being facetious now - but just to make the point...

Just saying how far do you test it before the cons outweight the pro's.

Joking aside, I get what you're saying - if I train to the limits with my practise-fighting and maim my training partner, am I happy to look him or her in the eye with my new found proof of effectiveness? Hardly. I still say though that it's not that folk don't test their SD training far enough, it's my experience that many simply don't test it at all. The assumption is that it will work and that's reinforced by an often naive trustworthiness and an attitude lacking in our normal skepticism when we're presented with techniques which are as I say, often subjected to nowhere near the tolerances that they should be if they're designed specifically for SD. And that's the scenario that would concern me.

But yes, you've hit the nail on the head right there. That's the dilemma. How do we reconcile a street attack situation where we may realistically be killed or maimed with training in which we neither want to be killed or kill someone with whom we are training? There are some interesting ideas up-thread.

Thanks for your input
Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

With all due respect, I think it might be wise for you to reserve your judgment of others training until you have experienced it. While what I refer to as "combat" in my training may not be firing live bullets at each other, it most certainly is combat. In the sense of:

1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against

v. intr.

To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.

I suport the use of the word combat because it gives the participant an idea of what is to come. You speak of "dojo awareness" and "sporting touches" but that is not present in combat and not in my training for such. Also, no there is no "sorry" after a touch of gloves. I have really been trying to make the point that most people are assuming everyones training matches their own, that is not the case. In our training there is only "more shots" as you say until the encounter is over by one of the agreed upon ways. As far as intent this has allways been a big issue of mine. I dont mean intent in the way you took it where its a drunk friend because I dont see that as intent I see that as condition. The intent is still the same, the drunk is still attacking me. Now, having said that I do not consider myself capable of knowing the intent of every person, therefore if I am attacked, I'm most certainly NOT going to pull anything because I assume their intentions (good or bad). As a 28 year old man, if I'm fighting, if its come to that, I'm fighting for my life or the life of my family....no intention is going to change my actions there. While there is a scale or reasonable force, to assume an attakers intent is a huge mistake and one that may just end your conflict way too soon or in a way you wouldn't choose. Would I try and kill the drunk who swings at me? No of course not, but I'm also not going to fight him either. Take into consideration that many people have been seriously injured by drunk people hardly able to stand, if you allow a preconcieved notion to police your actions you may just end up on the wrong side of that situation.



I completely agree, seeing and doing are two different things, thats why you should "do" in your training. Also keep in mind I'm coming from a place of "doing" allready in my life. I have claimed no ease in any confrontation whether it be striking certain targets or not. Thats the probem with these kinds of discussions, assumptions run rampant. I only mentioned certain targets, I didn't speak at all of their ease "to get". I used those terms to describe the mindset of the fight; ie one that is serious, one that is life threatening. Again, it might be best if we all just clear our minds of what we think of "dojo training" for this discussion. If stress is not a part of your training then I wholeheartedly believe you are not training realistically. See, you have a certain type of training in your head and are applying that preconceived notion against all training. Stress is a huge part of realistic training. Also, I didn't say anything about someone dropping from a strike to any area. In fact, one of the main principles of my "style" is not relying on anything to drop a person. We continue fighting until the person is not a threat anymore. We explain to beginners that you dont stop fighting when you knock a person down, you fight them on the way down and into the pavement until they cannot threaten you any longer. I agree with what your saying about "dojo people" versus "street people", but that is only a generalization. In fact, I train to (when neccesary) be much more violent and vicious than most martial artist could stomach. See, a big part of our training is mental. Its a whole different level of training to learn to "flip the switch" in your mind to fight in certain ways. Many "martial artists" would consider that type of fighting to be nasty, violent, cheap, what have you. I say thats exactly what I want to do in that type of fight. In fact, I train in such a way that those people wouldn't want to be locked in a room with me not the other way around.

Let me be clear about a few things. First, I'm not trying to promote my way of training and I'm certainly not insinuating that my way is the only way. I also dont want to give the idea that I think my type of training is in the minority, look around a bit, there are alot of people starting to train realistically and alive. I agree that there is an element missing in training. You aren't goin to actually break your partners arm (or what have you) but why do you think the ability to stop before causing serious injury somehow detracts from your ability to apply the needed extra pressure to break the arm? Its hard to get to that point, but its not impossible to train with the intensity and stress of a real situation. Many dont do it because its extremely taxing on the body and mind, but its real. Why is training "theory" or "untested" when I test it everyday with my partners? What is it about a real situation that makes you think your training is lacking? I throw full power kicks, punches, throws, takedowns, locks, etc everyday. I'm in the bag room hours and hours a week. I dont see why I should assume my training is not enough to protect me. I dont propose assuming it will protect you, but I believe it is possibel to test your skill for real situations, it just takes some effort and creativity.

7sm

O.K. if you want to throw out definitions, I won't argue. (Fighting isn't that intellectual). However, in laymans terms, when one speaks of being in combat, it is pretty much understood what was inferred.

With all due respect to you, I think you should reserve judgement for FIGHTING, until you've experienced it. (not just by what you've seen, or how you've trained)

As for the drunk thing. I never said it was a friend, they were not dangerous, or it wasn't an attack. You should defend yourself if attacked. Any attacker is dangerous and should be viewed as such. My point was against your argument of mindsets. If you treat all the same, FINE! Each to their own, When I was early in my Martial Mindset, I thought the same way, and DID so. However, just as advice, If you evaluate a drunk, that can't hardly stand, and destroy them the same as any attacker, when all you had to do was block/evade, push them down, and "run", You'll Have some problems!

I also didn't say that training doesn't prepare you. In fact, I've repeated it, and will do so again. You should train as hard as possible, if self defense is your goal! TRAINING WILL PREPARE YOU--To A certain extent! However, You don't beleive it, but, I'll say it anyway, as one from a lot of experience. Mindset, and physiological differences are present in a Real fight, that are not in training! (no matter how extreme one takes it). The only way to do it, is, to do it! (unfortunately). No creativity or effort will replace it! I'm also not saying or advocating going out and picking fights either.

On a closing note, If you do train the way you do-- GOD Bless YOU! These posts don't apply to you. Just don't be the kind that speaks of truthful knowledge, when you simulate everything. One can play "combat" as much as they want, but real "combat" is a whole different animal.

With Respect to all!

 

[stickarts]

MartialIntent,

No argument regarding testing your training! If the student's goal is to effectively defend themself, then there needs to be some kind of live training. Developing a false sense of confidence can be worse than not training but being wary! Thanks for your response and viewpoint! Your views are very well stated and I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[7starmantis]

O.K. if you want to throw out definitions, I won't argue. (Fighting isn't that intellectual). However, in laymans terms, when one speaks of being in combat, it is pretty much understood what was inferred.

Actually I beg to differ. I approach fighting from a very intelectual standpoint. I'm not sure what your getting at that was inferred, but I think I meant to infer it

With all due respect to you, I think you should reserve judgement for FIGHTING, until you've experienced it. (not just by what you've seen, or how you've trained)

Ok, I hope you aren't getting upset, I appologize if I have offended. However, please re-read my posts. I have experienced it many times, therefore I did reserve judgement until I experienced it. Also, having said that, I dont think I agree with your (infered) definition of "FIGHTING". In my opinion the few minutes I have spent really protecting myself (where I was in fear for my life) amounts to very little compared to the years and years of fighting I have done in training and competition. I have the philosophy of over overtraining. If I'm training for a 10 second SD fight I'll prepare my body for a 45 minute full out fight. Having experienced both "training fighting" and "FIGHTING" (by your definition) I still say I successfully prepare myself for real SD situations. I dont like overconfidence and to say your 100% prepared is to cheapend your reason for training, but I do feel prepared for whatever may come. I tell you what, learning to respond under the pressure of taking a beating is a nice tool when it comes to SD, in that light I try to fight with as many people I can that are better than myself.

As for the drunk thing. I never said it was a friend, they were not dangerous, or it wasn't an attack. You should defend yourself if attacked. Any attacker is dangerous and should be viewed as such. My point was against your argument of mindsets. If you treat all the same, FINE! Each to their own, When I was early in my Martial Mindset, I thought the same way, and DID so. However, just as advice, If you evaluate a drunk, that can't hardly stand, and destroy them the same as any attacker, when all you had to do was block/evade, push them down, and "run", You'll Have some problems!

Again, I appologize if I have offended. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I was simply trying to show my reasoning for my mindset. I think you misunderstood my point. I did not say anything close to "destroy" the drunk, in fact if you read my post I said I wouldn't even fight him. I thought that it was obvious that I meant I wouldn't engage him at all. A simple "block/evade, push them down, and run" may do the job. What I was tyring to point out is that it might just be anything but simple. If you let down your guard or approach the situation any different than a real SD situation your making a mental mistake that may cost you your life. I spoke of a scale of reasonable force and everything, what I mean is that morally and legally I do not have to try and determine the intent of any attacker. I will address the drunk the same as a surprise jump out of a dark alley, the difference is the drunk will be done way before the other would (hopefully). I wil still follow up, I will still perform my defense 100%, the drunk will simply be handled quicker with less damage than the other (again hopefully). In my opinion anything less than 100% would leave me open for bad times. What about the drunk's 3 friends sitting behind me or the one sitting next to my wife? That was my point, sorry if I offended.

I also didn't say that training doesn't prepare you. In fact, I've repeated it, and will do so again. You should train as hard as possible, if self defense is your goal! TRAINING WILL PREPARE YOU--To A certain extent! However, You don't beleive it, but, I'll say it anyway, as one from a lot of experience. Mindset, and physiological differences are present in a Real fight, that are not in training! (no matter how extreme one takes it). The only way to do it, is, to do it! (unfortunately). No creativity or effort will replace it! I'm also not saying or advocating going out and picking fights either.

I agree with you but I think your statement isn't complete. There is something missing in training, but I dont agree that the "something" is untrainable. Your right, mindset is different, but you would be surprised how close one can come to that mindset in creative training. However, I dont think the change in mindset is something that will cause a breach in my defenses, skills, common sense, or anything else.What is so special about that "mindset" that you think makes it change so very much in SD?

On a closing note, If you do train the way you do-- GOD Bless YOU! These posts don't apply to you. Just don't be the kind that speaks of truthful knowledge, when you simulate everything. One can play "combat" as much as they want, but real "combat" is a whole different animal.

Thank you, and I dont mean to stir up the discussion. However, I think you would find most "gangstas" (as titled earlier) would care for (or last long) in our "combat". Its pretty vicious and violent and the intent is to end it as quickly as possible. What makes your skills better is as everyone gets better you can fight longer and harder. I think this increase is one of unlimited potential. I also think the hours we spend doing it is much more than what will be needed for a SD situation. In a sense we try to flip the situation back on the attacker. I train so hard and vicious that when attacked I can effectively turn on the attacker and literally become the attacker. There is alot of mental training for that type of skill too. I'm not saying I have reached that level either, I just mean that is the intent of my training and I think most "gangsta" would find quite a handfull in any of my trainig partners. Anything can happen and anyone can die quickly in a real SD situation but I train to stack the odds in my favor...what else can you do? Oh, I also have a concealed handgun liscense....that takes care of alot of it right there.

Just my own opinions and experiences, your welcome to disagree....in fact, if you didn't I might think you were a bit crazy

7sm

 

[Hand Sword]

Actually I beg to differ. I approach fighting from a very intelectual standpoint. I'm not sure what your getting at that was inferred, but I think I meant to infer it

Ok, I hope you aren't getting upset, I appologize if I have offended. However, please re-read my posts. I have experienced it many times, therefore I did reserve judgement until I experienced it. Also, having said that, I dont think I agree with your (infered) definition of "FIGHTING". In my opinion the few minutes I have spent really protecting myself (where I was in fear for my life) amounts to very little compared to the years and years of fighting I have done in training and competition. I have the philosophy of over overtraining. If I'm training for a 10 second SD fight I'll prepare my body for a 45 minute full out fight. Having experienced both "training fighting" and "FIGHTING" (by your definition) I still say I successfully prepare myself for real SD situations. I dont like overconfidence and to say your 100% prepared is to cheapend your reason for training, but I do feel prepared for whatever may come. I tell you what, learning to respond under the pressure of taking a beating is a nice tool when it comes to SD, in that light I try to fight with as many people I can that are better than myself.

Again, I appologize if I have offended. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I was simply trying to show my reasoning for my mindset. I think you misunderstood my point. I did not say anything close to "destroy" the drunk, in fact if you read my post I said I wouldn't even fight him. I thought that it was obvious that I meant I wouldn't engage him at all. A simple "block/evade, push them down, and run" may do the job. What I was tyring to point out is that it might just be anything but simple. If you let down your guard or approach the situation any different than a real SD situation your making a mental mistake that may cost you your life. I spoke of a scale of reasonable force and everything, what I mean is that morally and legally I do not have to try and determine the intent of any attacker. I will address the drunk the same as a surprise jump out of a dark alley, the difference is the drunk will be done way before the other would (hopefully). I wil still follow up, I will still perform my defense 100%, the drunk will simply be handled quicker with less damage than the other (again hopefully). In my opinion anything less than 100% would leave me open for bad times. What about the drunk's 3 friends sitting behind me or the one sitting next to my wife? That was my point, sorry if I offended.

I agree with you but I think your statement isn't complete. There is something missing in training, but I dont agree that the "something" is untrainable. Your right, mindset is different, but you would be surprised how close one can come to that mindset in creative training. However, I dont think the change in mindset is something that will cause a breach in my defenses, skills, common sense, or anything else.What is so special about that "mindset" that you think makes it change so very much in SD?

Thank you, and I dont mean to stir up the discussion. However, I think you would find most "gangstas" (as titled earlier) would care for (or last long) in our "combat". Its pretty vicious and violent and the intent is to end it as quickly as possible. What makes your skills better is as everyone gets better you can fight longer and harder. I think this increase is one of unlimited potential. I also think the hours we spend doing it is much more than what will be needed for a SD situation. In a sense we try to flip the situation back on the attacker. I train so hard and vicious that when attacked I can effectively turn on the attacker and literally become the attacker. There is alot of mental training for that type of skill too. I'm not saying I have reached that level either, I just mean that is the intent of my training and I think most "gangsta" would find quite a handfull in any of my trainig partners. Anything can happen and anyone can die quickly in a real SD situation but I train to stack the odds in my favor...what else can you do? Oh, I also have a concealed handgun liscense....that takes care of alot of it right there.

Just my own opinions and experiences, your welcome to disagree....in fact, if you didn't I might think you were a bit crazy

7sm

No, I'm not upset, there's no bad intentions/ or feelings from me. My responses come from many years growing up and working hearing "the talk" but, not seeing "the walk", If you get what I'm saying. I've seen more "hard core experts" go down, and get that EMT treatment, that you used to do. Again, I applaud your training! keep it up! Try to encourage it to others! Ultimately I think, judging by how you say you view, and do training, that we are very similar! (at least in that "mind set")

P.S. I know we think differently about real self defense theories, But, speaking as someone with more than a "few minutes" of experience, Don't sell those minutes of yours short! They are more valuable to you than your training if it comes down to it for real! (Plus, Being crazy is a definite plus in my world also, I appreciate the compliment!

)

Be Safe!

 

[Hand Sword]

Something happened a few days ago that made me think of this thread. A co worker, who has been a long time dojo star, and I would admit, is a pretty good martial artist, that busts his backside training, worked with us, and "got into it". We had been messing with him earlier on about what would happen. He just blew it off, and was "confident", so to speak. Anyway, he got into it, and got trashed, by a smaller individual, needing to get bailed out. Since then he has thought deeply and re-evaluated his training, doing things "differently". Now, he is very anxious to come back to work, and experiment. One of our other workers joked by tapping him on the head, and saying "Congratulations, you've been baptised!" Which made me think of this thread!

 

[tradrockrat]

when it kicks of for real, you're in an extreme situation like it or not. I don't feel one could ever train those situations in the sterile environment of a practise hall. If we want to proclaim our arts as vehicles for defense then surely we need to get our arts out on the streets. It's about walking the walk.

Here's where my issue with your concept arises. I never trained "on the street" growing up. I trained in a gym in a guys house. But the first time I needed it on the street I walked away the winner. Why can't I teach my students the same way I was taught? Why will it be less effective for them than it was for me? Getting yourself cut open in a no holds barred fight doesn't even sound like good self defense to me. So would you start out your novices this way, or only "experienced" students?

My self defense students walk the walk by avoiding conflict if at all possible, and we have no delusions about real combat

 

[7starmantis]

The problem is a missapropriation of danger, or skill for the "streets". There are no special powers on the street that allow for things to happen that cannot happen in your training. Sure you can't train reacting and fighting after having been stabbed in the chest, but certainly we aren't to go around stabbing each other in our training. You can train those needed skills in other ways such as familiarizing yourself with pain, training the mental state needed for these situations etc. I have fought harder, longer, and more agressively in my training than I have ever had to do on the "str33tz". You will always have those who say "but its not the same" and thats true, but only in part. In your training you can cover the areas needed to deal with true self defense. Remember we are talking self defense. Going out and getting stabbed all the time or getting your knees broken is not self defense....thats a whole other thread

7sm

 

[painstain]

i like your way of thinking, but try this, be by yourself on your own mission to prove your ability, but cut the bad guys off, help someone out while doing it. present yourself as a target for one or two or more to come rob you. or jump in when you see 10 gang bangers beatin the hell out of some defenseless victim. thats the true way to test your art if your really about proving the effectiveness or proving your individual skill. i do this from time to time and your not going to find a lot of support on this forum for going out of your way to protect or prevent. or if your just tired of societies bullies getting away with a grin (thats me right there). some people just don't get what your saying. i think i do, but prefer privacy and a more realistic catch.

 

[green meanie]

If you got this far, thanks for reading. I'm very interested in your thoughts in particular as to why this would not apply to your art. Respects!

I can't think of any. It sounds like fun.

 

[Adept]

These are skill and mindsets which personally, I've had to leave the safety of my dojo to acquire and which honestly, I have not seen condoned, let alone being included as part of any core syllabus trained in a TMA club or school.

I've had very similar experiences. I think part of the problem, especially here on Martialtalk, is that many of the people here who defend TMA, and who train in TMA, take those extra steps to bridge the gaps between the basic syllabus and what they, as students, need. Therefore their own personal training in TMA gives them a well rounded and realistic skill set.

I posit that most martial artists are unlike those of us on here who take our MA that seriously, and are living in ignorance.

I remain firm in the opinion that your training style still remains in the minority while the general martial arts populus remains happily ignorant - as is somewhat apparent reading through any one of several threads here on MT, some archive and some current.

Agreed.

 

[Hand Sword]

I've had very similar experiences. I think part of the problem, especially here on Martialtalk, is that many of the people here who defend TMA, and who train in TMA, take those extra steps to bridge the gaps between the basic syllabus and what they, as students, need. Therefore their own personal training in TMA gives them a well rounded and realistic skill set.

I posit that most martial artists are unlike those of us on here who take our MA that seriously, and are living in ignorance.

I would agree with this. Good post.

 

[Hand Sword]

You will always have those who say "but its not the same" and thats true, but only in part. In your training you can cover the areas needed to deal with true self defense.
7sm

That's true, but, only in part.

 

[7starmantis]

That's true, but, only in part.

Yes but no one has offered a way to train fighting under the stress of a knife in the chest, without having a knife in the chest. You have to understand the limitations of your training and do what is neccessary to cover these "other skill sets" as best as possible while keeping yourself and your training partners safe. Unsafe training is pointless as you can't defend yourself while laying in a a hospital bed. However, can you really say a person who has experienced this proverbial knife in the chest is better skilled at self defense or fighting under that stress? Are gunshot survivors better adept to deal with getting whot than people who have never been shot? Will they react better or have a higher rate of survival the next tim ethey are shot as opposed t oa new victim? Not neccessarily. Putting yourself through something does not equal training to deal with that situation. If that were the case why do people who survive tragic accidents often die in tragic accidents?

7sm

 

[Hand Sword]

No one spoke of any of the above scenarios throughout the thread, or argued them. It was simply an argument of does training equal reality. You said you can accomplish it completely. I said that you can't.

With all due respect, You admitted to only a few minutes of real fighting, in your life. Based on that, your light view of "reality", and your pump up of training , as the answer, you are not qualified to address the question of the thread. Listen, and learn from the people who do it for a living and have more than a "few minutes" of fighting. If you disagree fine.

I agree with training, it's all we have for the most part. However, one must realize it's ALL SIMULATION of a real situation. Simulations, no matter how close they come, are what they are--Simulation.

I'm not trying to attack you, but as an old schooler, that was/is one of those people. You are preaching a dangerous mindset, one, that I've seen grow in the M.A. world. Lose the ego of training. Take it for what it is, and hope to God that you never have to try it out.

Everyone be safe.

 

[Dark]

IIf you got this far, thanks for reading. I'm very interested in your thoughts in particular as to why this would not apply to your art.

Respects!

1) I've been in those situations and in my younger days made a point to look up instructors with "street fighting" experience. I found that the ones who claimed to be "expert street fighters" were full of BS and the ones who were street fighters or x-street fighters didn't claim claim anything more then scars and stories behind them, most of which they wouldn't get to detailed on.

2) What would I be afraid of, the pattern of esculated aggression. In high school I had a boy who wanted to fight me. To scare him away my cousin told him I knew karate, which I did but she didn't know. So everyone wanted to fight me to test my "karate."

As an adult, and especially in the times I spent in the Army, drunken idiots wanted to test my martial arts training, some of them after getting beaten, or choked into submission came back with pool ques, knives and I've seen a few draw guns, though never in the military. At some point someone will forget pride and proving themselves and try to get revenge.

3) Go into any Irish Pub drink a beer and put your glass upside down on the bar. Thats the sign to have a good drunken throw down and do without pretense or childish bullying. Its nothing new, been around for years

4) Street fighters tend to be drunken-stoned thugs among other druken-stoned thugs, their general intent isn't to show skill or ability or be the "king of fighters" they only want to establish dominance through aggression and violence. When they fail to scare you, and they can't beat you you they will eventually try to kill or hurt someone close to you.

They are not the group you want to test yourself against, they are the group you want to avoid and they are the worst case-senario in a SD situation. Lets just say been there done that and don't want to go back.

 

[7starmantis]

With all due respect, You admitted to only a few minutes of real fighting, in your life. Based on that, your light view of "reality", and your pump up of training , as the answer, you are not qualified to address the question of the thread. Listen, and learn from the people who do it for a living and have more than a "few minutes" of fighting. If you disagree fine.

Once again you have misunderstood by post and continued on with your assumptions of my training. What I said was the "real fighting" or self defense fighting I had done all ended quite fast, so the combined total is just a few minutes. Grant it that was probably an understatement to make my point, but the life or death fighting I have done has never been a long drawn out 3, 5 minute round fight. Its over very quickly on my part or their part....I've been on both ends. My "light view of reality" comes from my own expireince fighting and my expierience saving the lifes of those who fight as a paramedic...this is of course all covered in this thread. The question in this thread is one of training and now I'm not qualified to address it? To whom did you mean to ask your question? What is your accepted amount of time spent fighting for your life? What do you define as qualified to address you or your questions? There is no one who fights life and death for a living....sorry to bring in my "light view of reality" but thats the facts. Your talking about true self defense fighting and then talking about people who do it for a living? Seems your view of reality is a little blurry. I'm sorry you misunderstood my point to the "few minutes" of fighting comment. I have successfully defending myself in several life or death fightin situations, defended people around me in these situations, and entered these situations (blades and bullets still flying) to save the lifes of people like what your describing...who look for life or death fights to prove themselvs or make themselves seem "legit".

I agree with training, it's all we have for the most part. However, one must realize it's ALL SIMULATION of a real situation. Simulations, no matter how close they come, are what they are--Simulation.

I agree with this, have agreed with this and have posted as such this entire thread. What I do not agree with is that training is simply not enough to prepare you for real situations. It all depends on your trianing....thus far my training has gotten me through every "real fighting" situation I have been in.....why is that? Your incorrectly asigning some lesser value to the word "simulation". Your saying a simulation is lesser, or wekare, or provides less experience than a real situation, but real training, based on realistic expectations has been enough for everyone I have ever met and has been around for many many years. I think what I refer to as training and what you refer to as training may just be two different things.

I'm not trying to attack you, but as an old schooler, that was/is one of those people. You are preaching a dangerous mindset, one, that I've seen grow in the M.A. world. Lose the ego of training. Take it for what it is, and hope to God that you never have to try it out.

I'm preaching a mindset of "doing rather than talking". I personally tell everyone that trains with me, ego is the number one killer of good training. My training and training parterns are ego free, I wont train with someone I feel has even the slightest hint of an ego. My experiences with my training and its usefullness are what I'm basing my points on here, not the "ego of training". I do hope I had never had to "try it out" but I have numerous times and it has allways been enough to get me home in one piece. Thats why I'm saying training is enough and can be proper and prepare you for real situations.....because it has.

7sm

 

[Odin]

I think we should all learn Muay thai!!that way you get to test what you've learnt in the ring and you can see for yourself that it works!with out having to pick a fight with biker-jacket thug!

Like my Kru told me ''unfortunatly to be a good fighter you have to actually have a couple fights!''

What ever floats thy boat I guess.