Attacking the Guard

[JowGaWolf]

When I attack the guard I try to do so in a manner that still protects me from counter attacks.

100% This is a must, which is why Jow Ga has 3 main options for the big wheel punches. I will only cover the first option
1. Send the punch towards the face. This addresses this issue that you state below about someone limping the arms. When I do this I my opponent 2 options:

A: Allow my strike to strike his guard
B: Limp his arm and allow my strike to continue towards his face.
Even if the punch is not close enough to land it is close enough to cause the opponent to reposition as a response to the fist pasing close to his face. In Jow Ga we "steal steps" by "small step advancing" during an attack so that our opponents will miscalculate the distance of the follow up strike. It's like how an animal stalks. If we advance to far to fast then our opponent will flee. If we advance slowly our advance doesn't trigger our opponents "distance warnings." The trick for animals that stalk is to advance in such a way that the prey doesn't see the advance and that the prey doesn't realize that they are now withing attack range. So for me. I don't want my opponent to see my advance which is why it's best to do it during attacking, and to make it small enough so that he thinks that my punches are still out of range. Jow Ga kung fu isn't the only fighting system that does this type of advancing. I'm only speaking of it in terms of discussing the other elements that should occur when striking the guard.

If this is your guard position then "limping your guard" will allow a strike that attacks your guard, but travels on a path to your head to land on your head instead of the guard. Even if my strike is too far out, it should still travel on a path that would reach the head. This way if my opponent advances or if I "steal a step" then the strike will land. When a limb is damaged then people will take priority to remove the limb from danger and forget that limb needs to stay where it is in order to defend the head.

If I smash down on one side and he limp arms. Then I have attacked my own guard.

"White shirt" can throw a long fist strike with his lead hand. That strike travels from right to left on a path that will reach the head. If the strike attacks the guard then the max power of the power will land on the guard. If no shirt limps his arm then the strike will continue on the path towards the head. If the strike falls short, then it's no issue so long as the strike is close enough to the head to cause the person to choose "Adjust position". If "White shirt" advances during the strike, then he should be close enough to land a secon strike so long as the the advancing step doesn't make the "no shirt" retreat straigh backwards. Keep in mind that this is Jow Ga. I do not strike the guard with boxing techniques.

 

[windwalker099]

In other words, when I grab my opponent's wrist, I do want him to respond so I can take advantage on. My goal is not on his wrist but on something else.

I don't see much covering movement in your approach to closing the gap.
We practice this outside the kicking and punching range by doing what we call "walking the circle."

We start from a range of about 6 feet, with one person in the center of the circle and the other on the perimeter.
The drill is to close the gap in 3 steps using a covering movement. The person in the center claps if they can spot the starting point of the movement.

Eventually, this is reduced to 2 steps, with the ultimate goal of closing the gap in just 1 step.

David Chin, closing the gap
Penetrating the space.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't see much covering movement in your approach to closing the gap.
We practice this outside the kicking and punching range by doing what we call "walking the circle."

We start from a range of about 6 feet, with one person in the center of the circle and the other on the perimeter.
The drill is to close the gap in 3 steps using a covering movement. The person in the center claps if they can spot the starting point of the movement.

Eventually, this is reduced to 2 steps, with the ultimate goal of closing the gap in just 1 step.

David Chin, closing the gap
Penetrating the space.

thanks for posting this video. @1:34 the teacher was going for a sweep but stopped.

 

[marvin8]

MA is like playing chess, you make 1 move, your opponent also makes 1 move.

The normal fight should not be.

- A attack B and knock B down.

Good MA or chess: Your first move lures your opponent out of position. As your opponent moves out of position (double weighted), your next move finishes them.

- A safely lures B. As B moves out of position, A finishes B.

The normal fight should be:

- A attack B.
- B counter A.
- A counter B again.
- B counter A again.
- ...

No...

Martial arts should teach one to fight with an advantage (e.g., positional) rather than trade punches.

 

[isshinryuronin]

MA is like playing chess, you make 1 move, your opponent also makes 1 move.

The normal fight should not be.

- A attack B and knock B down.

The normal fight should be:

- A attack B.
- B counter A.
- A counter B again.
- B counter A again.
- ...m

This is certainly the case in competition - like chess, it's a type of game. This is sometimes the case in an actual fight as well, but ideally, shouldn't be. One's attitude should be "defend" and counter in a manner (thru position, physical control, pain or balance loss) that the attacker has no way to re-establish his attack. Once you have the advantage you should aggressively close and subdue him. This is the essence of Okinawan combat karate that Motobu Choki embraced. Seeing a fight as a give and take affair is contrary to this spirit. The attacker gives (opportunity) and you take him out. I think this is the main goal in a real fight.

 

[drop bear]

This is certainly the case in competition - like chess, it's a type of game. This is sometimes the case in an actual fight as well, but ideally, shouldn't be. One's attitude should be "defend" and counter in a manner (thru position, physical control, pain or balance loss) that the attacker has no way to re-establish his attack. Once you have the advantage you should aggressively close and subdue him. This is the essence of Okinawan combat karate that Motobu Choki embraced. Seeing a fight as a give and take affair is contrary to this spirit. The attacker gives (opportunity) and you take him out. I think this is the main goal in a real fight.

Not really. It's about risk. The theory is you drive forward with these punishing attacks like a super cool dude.

Knock the guy out in 10 seconds and the whole room claps.

But what you are doing is engaging in the riskiest method of fighting (the highest chance that you will get clipped) while your opponent is at his quickest and strongest. And when you know the least about him.

So it gives you the highest possibility of getting knocked out.

It is risky to do in the ring with gloves in a fight that will get stopped if you misjudge your abilities.

Which is mostly why they don't do it.

It gets riskier if we take away those gloves. Remove weight classes have no idea what the other guy is going to fight like. And are not sure if the fight will stop, if you get stopped.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A safely lures B. As B moves out of position, A finishes B.

I see it this way too when I use Jow Ga. I terms of action:
A starts planned action
B responds to A's action

I always want B's reaction to be something other than an attack. Anything that causes him to recalibrate or think is a plus. Brain freezing up is a bonus because at that point he doesn't know how to respond and basically turns into a "Demo Partner" at that point.

In the video I posted showing attacking the guard, if Jow Ga moves straight then the risk of getting hit with a counter but when Jow Ga moves off center that movement doesn't trigger thecounterattackk response as easily. If I'm attacking directly then I need to look for a counter. If I'm attacking at an angle, then I'm trying to avoid triggering the counter.

This shows how that counter gets triggered.

This is a excellent example of the "stealing step" that I was talking about + plus taking an angle instead of going straight. This would be text book Jow Ga concept here. Clip set at ffighter

 

[marvin8]

You are correct, as you describe it. However, the problem is between the "stepping and grabbing." There is a step missing. It is difficult in a combat situation (where the attack is not a simple grab) to apply a grab directly, for the reasons you point out here.

There has to be an initial attack on the guard prior to the grab to immobilize it, move it and put the attacker out of position to counter, or in a fashion that, as you later mention, kazushi (structural balance) is affected. Only then will the grab have a high percentage chance of being successfully set.

Here is a wrist grab in a fight. In Gamebred Bareknuckle 6, Sanford...

1. lures opponent to hand fight by extending and retracting his guard.
2. as opponent extends his guard, Sanford grabs the wrist lightly and attacks with rear hand.
3. as opponent defends by retracting his guard and shifting his weight to the back foot, Sanford sticks to the wrist, grabs head control, follows the opponent back and knees him.

 

[windwalker099]

.Martial arts should teach one to fight with an advantage (e.g., positional) rather than trade punches.

Agree

In most instances, CMA was structured around a quick fight, aiming to end it within a few movements. This approach was partly achieved through variations across the many CMA styles, each thought to provide a decisive advantage.

Each variation, responses to new developments or innovative insights relevant to its time.

In the West, sportive events minimize these variations (e.g., height, weight, fight record) in an attempt to create a fair fight that showcases each fighter’s attributes. Partially why in the west, the focus is on the fighter over the style the fighter uses. In the east it's more about the style thought to give one a decisive advantage.

a little different

This approach is somewhat antithetical to real fighting, the ultimate expression " shock and awe " is "war" .

When martial arts become sportive or health-focused, the emphasis shifts. For example, "toughening the hands" some understand it for practical combat purposes, others focused on the side effects as a training process.

Each perspective correct according to its focus.

 

[windwalker099]

You are correct, as you describe it. However, the problem is between the "stepping and grabbing." There is a step missing. It is difficult in a combat situation (where the attack is not a simple grab) to apply a grab directly, for the reasons you point out here.

Mantis uses this approach

Something I never really cared for coming from Tibetan white crane a long arm style
based on the principles of :

Chan (残) - Ruthlessness
Sim (閃) - To Evade
Chuen (穿) - To Pierce
Jeet (截) - To Intercept

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not really. It's about risk. The theory is you drive forward with these punishing attacks like a super cool dude.

Knock the guy out in 10 seconds and the whole room claps.

But what you are doing is engaging in the riskiest method of fighting

Not risky at all, at least no more than any fight is risky. Yes, "the theory is drive forward with these punishing attacks" is basically correct, but not in the blindly charging-in berserker way you seem to suggest. I'm talking about a disciplined and designed response. In this discussion on attacking the guard, I made it clear (in post #6 and #25) your attack is progressive, neutralizing the opponent's ability to counter. To me, this seems less risky than the back-and-forth trading shots with the opponent strategy. And you would want to take several seconds, if possible, to get an idea of the opponent's fight style, stance, etc. before engaging with commitment.

In addition to dealing with the opponent's guard and nullifying counter punches, as one moves in you can use your stance to check possible kicks and evasive footwork, basically checking the opponent's stance using leg on leg pressure and position. Once you have gained this type of position, the opponent has little chance to counter, his offensive options being largely shut down. With quick movement, timing and skill this is not very difficult to achieve, at least in part. Shutting down even half the opponent's counter options will usually give you a major advantage.

I strongly maintain that this strategy and mindset is better than the "give and take / back and forth" attitude. The latter may be effective in a tournament sport setting and where you are up against someone with similar training, but in an actual fight (and even tournaments) my goals are: Safely close, shut down possible counters, get in striking position and take him out ASAP. If the opponent has some superiority in skills, this method can minimize it. Back and forth against someone with superiority is IMO not a wise strategy.

 

[drop bear]

Not risky at all, at least no more than any fight is risky. Yes, "the theory is drive forward with these punishing attacks" is basically correct, but not in the blindly charging-in berserker way you seem to suggest. I'm talking about a disciplined and designed response. In this discussion on attacking the guard, I made it clear (in post #6 and #25) your attack is progressive, neutralizing the opponent's ability to counter. To me, this seems less risky than the back-and-forth trading shots with the opponent strategy. And you would want to take several seconds, if possible, to get an idea of the opponent's fight style, stance, etc. before engaging with commitment.

In addition to dealing with the opponent's guard and nullifying counter punches, as one moves in you can use your stance to check possible kicks and evasive footwork, basically checking the opponent's stance using leg on leg pressure and position. Once you have gained this type of position, the opponent has little chance to counter, his offensive options being largely shut down. With quick movement, timing and skill this is not very difficult to achieve, at least in part. Shutting down even half the opponent's counter options will usually give you a major advantage.

I strongly maintain that this strategy and mindset is better than the "give and take / back and forth" attitude. The latter may be effective in a tournament sport setting and where you are up against someone with similar training, but in an actual fight (and even tournaments) my goals are: Safely close, shut down possible counters, get in striking position and take him out ASAP. If the opponent has some superiority in skills, this method can minimize it. Back and forth against someone with superiority is IMO not a wise strategy.

You are significantly reducing the time you have to react to his strikes.

Obviously you are doing the same to him.

But it leaves more to chance.

 

[Fungus]

Riskstrategy is a very interesting and relevant topic!

My own conclusions so far (beeing a beginner and all) is that there are not static or style-tied optimal strategies as however you fight are bound to be modulated strongly by your personal weaknesses and strenghts.

And I agree that a riskfree strategy does not exists, may with the exception of "no be there".

People which has superior endurance, may win over a stronger opponent by first prolonging the fight to make him tired, then as he is tired and guards drop and responser are less crips, he can finish.

But I am not one of those, so I can not keep up very long for dancing. So my strategy (that i train for, even in kumite although without damaging anyone) is to
- save energy; beeing well conditioned to take a bunch ot kicks and strikes to the legs and body, can save ALOT of energy if you keep the dancing down
- I try to train, and focus on power counters. And my ideal is also that unless the opponets catch or avoid, it should have KO potential. If you are weaker and smaller, knocking someone out with a body shot is simply not easy. Then your your options are to go for the head.
- I can not do high kicks to the head in a realible and controlled manner (there is an exception of one kick) so my main strategies would body body KO, to ribs or liver. OF course if head strikes is allowed head strikes would suit be perfect.

All this colours my fightin strategy. I am even told by our shihans to "don't eat as much attacks", but the truth is that for me its a good tradeoff. This makes it also complex for others, because where oters would back off, I can go in and counter hard. This is maybe not optimal for all, but I think for me it is what i can do.

I would definitely want to KO, not the first seconds, but the first minute or two at least.

Getting tired is what I see as my biggest risk! So trying to finish fast is what I like as well.

 

[Fungus]

My most dojo kumite does have a good dose of give and take, but that is just because I don't want to finish and go home. I want to fight the whole hour But I still simulate finishing attacks - even if i hold back.

 

[marvin8]

Not risky at all, at least no more than any fight is risky. Yes, "the theory is drive forward with these punishing attacks" is basically correct, but not in the blindly charging-in berserker way you seem to suggest. I'm talking about a disciplined and designed response. In this discussion on attacking the guard, I made it clear (in post #6 and #25) your attack is progressive, neutralizing the opponent's ability to counter.

Yes. Let's take my fight GIF in post #28 as a "progressive" entry starting from outside range to a finish.

To me, this seems less risky than the back-and-forth trading shots with the opponent strategy. And you would want to take several seconds, if possible, to get an idea of the opponent's fight style, stance, etc. before engaging with commitment.

In addition to dealing with the opponent's guard and nullifying counter punches, as one moves in you can use your stance to check possible kicks and evasive footwork, basically checking the opponent's stance using leg on leg pressure and position. Once you have gained this type of position, the opponent has little chance to counter, his offensive options being largely shut down. With quick movement, timing and skill this is not very difficult to achieve, at least in part. Shutting down even half the opponent's counter options will usually give you a major advantage.

Yes. Sanford uses his guard deceptively showing a defensive move while luring the opponent out of the on guard position before grabbing (changing)...

The long guard (e.g., pawing jab) slows the pace down.

Regardless of stance width or style, you want to lure and control the opponent before (changing to) the drop step (technique). A pawing jab is slower paced than a jab by definition. It is also less threatening. So, the opponent tends to react by coming forward and/or raising their hand(s) rather than evading.

I strongly maintain that this strategy and mindset is better than the "give and take / back and forth" attitude. The latter may be effective in a tournament sport setting and where you are up against someone with similar training, but in an actual fight (and even tournaments) my goals are: Safely close, shut down possible counters, get in striking position and take him out ASAP. If the opponent has some superiority in skills, this method can minimize it. Back and forth against someone with superiority is IMO not a wise strategy.

In my fight GIF, Sanford does a similar to ward off, rollback, press strategy taking a half step back without dancing. Then, Sanford closes the gap with a step and strike similar to oi zuki before grabbing head control. He slows the pace down, lures and extends his opponent out of the ready position. With the opponent's arm extended and weight on the front foot, he is unable to strike without making another move. With light wrist control, Sanford uses similar to the stick, adhere, join and follow strategy ending in a finish.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Safely close, shut down possible counters, get in striking position and take him out ASAP.

That's the strategy I like to use as well. When the opportunity arrives, I would tell myself, "Now is the time. I'm not going to wait any long. If I have to die, let me die right at this moment". I will then charge in with 120% commitment. This strategy work very well for my tournament fights any way.

 

[windwalker099]

example of attacking the guard using foot work moving off center.

My own preference cutting the attacking arm, using what we called cutting hand,
the edge of the palm and forearm conditioned to cut...if trained right
can actually cause a break in the radius bone of the opponents forearm....