Why your TKD blocks may not work

[dvcochran]

Do this the next time you are in class. Take a punching and have someone to do front kicks. Allow them to hit it a few times. Then when you think you have a good idea of the distance that the kicks travels then move the pad 3 inches back right before the kick lands. Comeback to this thread and tell me what happened. As easy as it is to do this with a mit, it's easier to do it with the body because you can control the distance with your stance. If you can move your head 3 inches to get out of the way, then why don't you think it works the same way with the body my moving your feet. Just shuffle in the direction you need to move in.

You are putting mass back into the equation. The whole body vs. just the head. If you are moving at your midsection back to avoid a middle level attack I can agree with you. But not shuffling your feet vs. using an arm that is likely close to blocking position anyway.

 

[dvcochran]

But there was nothing stopping him from explaining first, Then showing the same concept in action. It's sort of like how Kung Fu demos go. They explain, then they demo, but never go into sparring to show the application in actual use.

The only video I've seen of it actually happen was a little girl who choked out a kid using his t-shirt. But she already had him in a bad position , as in she could have probably braided his hair and he wouldn't have been able to stop that. The t-shirt choke only came when he was helpless.

The banter if always fun, but do you realize how much you arguments come from only one perspective, that of Kung Fu? No, I am not bashing Kung Fu, I am quite fond of it but there are hundreds other styles and methods that do work quite well. Oh, and remember, just because you heard it or see it on the internet (YouTube) doesn't make it true.

 

[dvcochran]

Whoever put disagree, would you like for me to show you the math?

If your kick will only go 2 inches into my body, then I only need to shuffle 3 inches to get out of the way. My arm will travel more than 3 inches to move from a high guard position to a low block position. It's literally math. What is the distance that a front kick travels into the body? What ever that distance is, you only need to travel 1or 2 inches more. to get out of the way. Am I the only one that knows this?

I think that was me. You don't seem to understand there is more that just distance to the equation. Mass, acceleration, velocity, etc...

 

[JowGaWolf]

The fact that your hand was all the way up the leg to the knee is telling me it was either performed incorrectly or way too late or both. Didn't mean that to sound rude.

You don't sound rude. I slowed the video down and paused it at the point of impact and I actually was short of hitting the target. I was trying to hit his knee and saw that i was actually short of it. Which meant that I could have safely given him a nice hammer fist. I already know I have bad timing for a low block, so if you can tell me what should have happened with the low block, then I wouldn't mind hearing it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but do you realize how much you arguments come from only one perspective, that of Kung Fu?

All I do is kung fu so what other perspective would I be able to come from? I'm not going to sit here and say "This is how BJJ is." I can only come from the perspective of having the experience of my shirt ripping and people punching at me. 2 Things I've personally experienced. I've never been ground and pound before but I can only imagine that someone punching at you, elbowing you, and head butting you would keep your hands busy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You don't seem to understand there is more that just distance to the equation. Mass, acceleration, velocity, etc...

Distance is everything. Measure distance wrong and you'll get your timing wrong. Regardless of mass, acceleration, velocity etc.. kicks and punches will only have mass, acceleration, and velocity with in a limited range and then after that, it drops off greatly. Measure that distance correctly and you'll be able to exploit that. Measure that distance wrong and you get nailed. Measure that distance correctly and you can avoid the strike with minimum effort.

Same concept but with punching

If you move 5 feet back every time someone throws a strike then you'll forever be out of range to instantly counter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's not the T-shirt that's choking you, mainly.....it's mostly my forearm that cutting off the blood flow...or worse, if I go for an air choke and possibly crush your trachea.

If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt. Is it illegal to use the shirt in no gi bjjj?

 

[dvcochran]

You don't sound rude. I slowed the video down and paused it at the point of impact and I actually was short of hitting the target. I was trying to hit his knee and saw that i was actually short of it. Which meant that I could have safely given him a nice hammer fist. I already know I have bad timing for a low block, so if you can tell me what should have happened with the low block, then I wouldn't mind hearing it.

Block from mid-calf to ankle if for no other reasons than torque and lever. Plus you greatly reduce your chance of getting hit.
In regards to an actual attack, the knee is fair game and the inside is quite sensitive and a good place to strike. IF they tried to kick me like in your video, I would still block lower on the leg to make sure I wasn't hit and then counter, maybe to the knee. I don't know how to test it but a strike to the knee cap is supposedly effective. But I personally would not make it my go to knee block/strike.

 

[Hanzou]

I saw one guy explaining a technique and another guy doing nothing to resist it.

Here ya go.

1:04 mark.

If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt.

It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here ya go.

1:04 mark.



It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.

I don't know. You can actually see him pause in order to let her get the technique.

This is the closet that I've seen to any type of shirt choke against a resisting person. As far as I could tell she didn't go through the "bunching" phase Unfortunately I couldn't see where she was pulling on the shirt.

It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.

I can see this, which is why I mentioned that I could see how a jacket or coat would get me choked out. Not like that's the only way to choke me out, but the material is stronger than a t-shirt that you have to bunch up.

 

[FriedRice]

If this is the case then it seems to make more sense and just choke them out without using the shirt. Is it illegal to use the shirt in no gi bjjj?

It depends. There are chokes you can do when they're in your guard (w/o grabbing their shirt), like the front naked choke, guillotine, etc. But if you're tired, hurt bad, or something...or have no gas left, then you can use the shirt for grip to pull him down, further the choke, etc. That's why I would take off my shirt asap. When I wasn't trained, we already had cheap tricks like pulling their shirt over their head when in a clinch. I then brought this into sparring when I started training BJJ. Dudes would first start laughing, but then they got mad so I stopped that after a few times.

In no-gi, you're not allowed to yank on their rashguard nor grab the shorts, etc.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know. You can actually see him pause in order to let her get the technique.

And what do you think he'd be able to do during that 1 second pause? He isn't regaining posture that quickly, and his punches wouldn't do much damage from that position since his posture is broken.

This is the closet that I've seen to any type of shirt choke against a resisting person. As far as I could tell she didn't go through the "bunching" phase Unfortunately I couldn't see where she was pulling on the shirt.

She was pulling him at the collar. You can tell by how jacked up his collar was afterwards. Her leg grip, the position of her legs, and him trying to pull away did the rest.

Bow and Arrow choke. Here's the gi version:

 

[Buka]

You'll be fine.

Hanzou, remind me to discuss this with you later, I’m at working and having phone issues. A variation of this choke is my favorite move in martolial Arts. And I don’t give a damn what kind of clothing they have on.

 

[dvcochran]

Here ya go.

1:04 mark.



It's harder to break chokes that are assisted by clothing, and having something providing additional grips, leverage, and tension never hurts.

Very good video.

 

[dvcochran]

Distance is everything. Measure distance wrong and you'll get your timing wrong. Regardless of mass, acceleration, velocity etc.. kicks and punches will only have mass, acceleration, and velocity with in a limited range and then after that, it drops off greatly. Measure that distance correctly and you'll be able to exploit that. Measure that distance wrong and you get nailed. Measure that distance correctly and you can avoid the strike with minimum effort.

Same concept but with punching

If you move 5 feet back every time someone throws a strike then you'll forever be out of range to instantly counter.

The video supports what I am saying. Then are mainly moving their head. These guys are super fast and gifted. The agility is amazing. When Ali is in the corner bobbing and weaving his head is the perfect example. I better understand what you are trying to say though. Footwork, footwork, footwork. However, that is very different from Ali's bob & weave.
Most people cannot not nor ever will move like those guys.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then are mainly moving their head. These guys are super fast and gifted. The agility is amazing. When Ali is in the corner bobbing and weaving his head is the perfect example.

Moving the body is the same concept. When someone kicks at a body, they are literally kicking at a target. Move the target left or right or back a few inches will cause the person to miss. Boxing is a little different because they can actually "punch into a target" versus "punching at the surface" If they punch at the surface of the then you can just move your head back a little and be safe. If they punch beyond the surface of the target then moving back a few inches won't help and that's when bobbing and weaving and taking angles come into play.

This same concept exists with kicks, but it works better, because once a person kicks they can no longer move forward. Even with the side kick that Bruce Lee uses follows this rule. When he actually kicks, his physical body is no longer moving forward beyond where he planted his foot. The other thing about it is that you don't have to be as quick to get out of the way because kicks normally travel in a consistent distance. If you can get a good estimate on the length of the leg then you can do really good with staying out of range or smothering a kick.

The difficulty with punches is that there is more than one. With kicks, you really only have to get pass that first because the second one takes longer than the first one. Even as fast as this kicks are, you'll still have time to move in or at an angle as the foot retreats. Provided that the first kick doesn't beak your structure, causing to spend your "moving time" for regaining your structure.

Front kick at 1:40 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick.
Front kick at 2:00 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick (this time because of the footwork of the sweep)
Teep at 2:38 misses because the head moved off center of the kick
Side kick? at 4:08 misses because distance wasn't calculated accurately.
Front kick at 4:13 misses because he takes an angle which moves the body, and it's not a big angle, it was just enough to get out of the way. Because he didn't use a low block he still has his hand free to fire after he evades the kick. He was able to strike while the kick was still in the air.

I picked this fighter because I already knew that Yi Long likes to move in on kicks. He will either try to take an angle or smother the kick to prevent it from reaching maximum power. He comfortable with this because he understand that once the kick starts, his opponent is no longer able to retreat. He doesn't do a lot of bobbing and weaving because there are kicks involved, so the only really safe option is to move the body out of the way. Bob and weave when there is kicking and you may end up kissing a shin, foot, or knee.

 

[Buka]

You'll be fine.

I'm so glad you posted that vid. Several years ago I was asking here on the forum if there was a particular name to this choke....well, actually, a variation of this choke. A variation I much prefer. Is there a name for this other than collar choke from guard? And I looked online for this puppy forever back then but never found it.

I was originally taught.....when you hook their right arm....your hand keeps going and grabs their lapel/collar. Grabs it by their left jawline.

You start slapping with your free hand on the left side of their head (or instead of slapping you can start force their head to the side)
While you're slapping you grab their lapel/collar a few inches higher than where you already grip it. But when I grip it I don't have my hand palm up, I have it palm down. Then start forcing their head to the side. Then slip your arm over the head and proceed to apply the choke. AND by having your second hand palm down, you now turn it palm up as you're applying. This turn of the hand further cinches the lapel/collar a few inches tighter. Then pull apart your hands driving your elbows down while inhaling.
One of the differences between what's shown is - the one I was taught is one less move. When you initially hook their arm your hand just keeps going as part of that hooking motion and grabs collar.
We were taught this in the early nineties. We experimented for years in gi, in every kind of t-shirt imaginable, including old ones with the collars removed you know - the kind a kid with a mullet would wear back in the eighties. We experimented with dress shirts, sweatshirts, sweaters, both button down and pull overs, suits, hooded sweatshirts, winter coats of all kind, rain slickers. With everything and anything we could think of. We experimented inside and outside, in rain, snow, in mud, in slush. (in slush you don't last more than thirty seconds, but hey, I wasn't very bright) So before anyone assumes it won't work on a particular article of clothing - go play and wreck some clothes. It's actually kind of fun.

It worked with everything. Hooded sweatshirts can mess you up a little bit when you grab the hood by mistake. It can do this in two different ways - but I ain't telling you how, go figure it out for yourself.

And I tell you what, when you get their arm hooked and grab with your first hand - again, which is one fairly simple move - from there the second grab into the end of the choke is FAST. Really fast. Go try. Then have your partners resist. One of the benefits of their resisting actually helps you. When somebody doesn't know this choke and you start shoving their head to the side, they will resist as a reaction - which lets you stop shoving and move your arm over their head - it's kind of like they pop their own head into the noose. Which is always a fine thing.

 

[dvcochran]

Moving the body is the same concept. When someone kicks at a body, they are literally kicking at a target. Move the target left or right or back a few inches will cause the person to miss. Boxing is a little different because they can actually "punch into a target" versus "punching at the surface" If they punch at the surface of the then you can just move your head back a little and be safe. If they punch beyond the surface of the target then moving back a few inches won't help and that's when bobbing and weaving and taking angles come into play.

This same concept exists with kicks, but it works better, because once a person kicks they can no longer move forward. Even with the side kick that Bruce Lee uses follows this rule. When he actually kicks, his physical body is no longer moving forward beyond where he planted his foot. The other thing about it is that you don't have to be as quick to get out of the way because kicks normally travel in a consistent distance. If you can get a good estimate on the length of the leg then you can do really good with staying out of range or smothering a kick.

The difficulty with punches is that there is more than one. With kicks, you really only have to get pass that first because the second one takes longer than the first one. Even as fast as this kicks are, you'll still have time to move in or at an angle as the foot retreats. Provided that the first kick doesn't beak your structure, causing to spend your "moving time" for regaining your structure.

Front kick at 1:40 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick.
Front kick at 2:00 misses because the body (target) moved off center of the kick (this time because of the footwork of the sweep)
Teep at 2:38 misses because the head moved off center of Ithe kick
Side kick? at 4:08 misses because distance wasn't calculated accurately.
Front kick at 4:13 misses because he takes an angle which moves the body, and it's not a big angle, it was just enough to get out of the way. Because he didn't use a low block he still has his hand free to fire after he evades the kick. He was able to strike while the kick was still in the air.

I picked this fighter because I already knew that Yi Long likes to move in on kicks. He will either try to take an angle or smother the kick to prevent it from reaching maximum power. He comfortable with this because he understand that once the kick starts, his opponent is no longer able to retreat. He doesn't do a lot of bobbing and weaving because there are kicks involved, so the only really safe option is to move the body out of the way. Bob and weave when there is kicking and you may end up kissing a shin, foot, or knee.

One very common drill we do is to practice the distance of our kicks and when to use them. I an add or subtract about 10" to my kick by what I do with my body. When kicking, I have the same choices of any other move. I can move in any direction after the kick. It is always relevant to what the opponent does. I can jab with a kick much like I jab with a punch.
The kicking contest in the video was purely a speed race. Not a good example at all. The standing leg was basically static as well as the body. It was in a controlled environment where nothing else mattered so not very practical. That is rarely a useful way to throw multiple kicks in a fight. It happens but not very often, maybe when the opponent if outclassed or overpowered.
If I double roundhouse you the leg doesn't reset to the ground so there isn't much time to do anything but block, or get hit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The standing leg was basically static as well as the body

This is going to be case with all kicks unless you are in the air. As you stated, You can move in any direction after the kick which means you move once the kicking leg returns to the ground.

If I double roundhouse you the leg doesn't reset to the ground so there isn't much time to do anything but block, or get hit.

Been there. Done it. counter is still the same move forward either straight or at an angle. No need to block. I just need to move forward or forward at an angle in either direction as you give up your root completely.

That's just the weak points of kick and it doesn't matter which system a person trains all circular kicks have the same weak points.

 

[FriedRice]

The difficulty with punches is that there is more than one. With kicks, you really only have to get pass that first because the second one takes longer than the first one. Even as fast as this kicks are, you'll still have time to move in or at an angle as the foot retreats. Provided that the first kick doesn't beak your structure, causing to spend your "moving time" for regaining your structure.

That's the thing I learned real quick when starting Muay Thai, with a TKD background. That a low leg kick needs to inflict pain, which will cause that 1/2 a second of shock....giving you time to pull back your kicking leg into stance to defend what's coming back at you or to attack again. TKD, it was too much snappy kicks for speed & points but low power....I could kick pretty hard, just too used to going for speed. MT dudes would wreck me with their hands....and my TKD hands were trash.

That's why when you see that MT RH kick miss, the kicker usually spins 360 deg. because he just put everything he had into that kick. Although there are dudes quick enough to get you while you're spinning, esp. in Thailand.

Another variation of the MT RH kick is to take a step forward & at 45 degrees then kick, while bending the torso. This immediately avoids the punch counter, usually the straight cross. Even if you don't land the kick, there's enough time to defend punches.