Assist instructor requirement

[Tez3]

I dont wish to be rude, but you let an advisory body, that has no experience in your art, dictate your teaching credentials?
Because health and safety recommend it, the same people who are trying to ban contact sports, because of the contact element, dont get me wrong, I am all for the best practice for sports injury, and recovery, but I use a term you used recently, snowflakes

What advisory body do you think that is from? That is from a martial arts association, Iain Abernethy is one of the advisors.
The Health and Safety Executive aren't trying to ban contact sports. The health and safety aspect go hand in hand with your insurance, where you have to make sure your building, equipment, gym etc is safe. Having an accident book, a first aid box, first aider etc.

I think you have totally the wrong idea about what the courses are about. Coaching courses for sports aren't about teaching credentials, they are about improving your coaching and surely you don't think we as black belts never need improvement or better ways to put things over?

but I use a term you used recently, snowflakes

No I didn't use that phrase at all, I detest it and never call anyone a snowflake.

 

[Gweilo]

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I hold that you do NOT need that formal course of study to be able to teach these things.

For those who suggest that you do, I ask them if they have done so.

My apollogies

 

[Gweilo]

What advisory body do you think that is from? That is from a martial arts association, Iain Abernethy is one of the advisors.
The Health and Safety Executive aren't trying to ban contact sports. The health and safety aspect go hand in hand with your insurance, where you have to make sure your building, equipment, gym etc is safe. Having an accident book, a first aid box, first aider etc.

I think you have totally the wrong idea about what the courses are about. Coaching courses for sports aren't about teaching credentials, they are about improving your coaching and surely you don't think we as black belts never need improvement or better ways to put things over?



No I didn't use that phrase at all, I detest it and never call anyone a snowflake.

My apologies for the snowflake comment, I thought you ueed it recently, but to my point, if a student is awarded 2nd Dan, is that not a qualification of compitance

 

[Flying Crane]

My apollogies

No apology necessary. A simple misunderstanding.

 

[Tez3]

British Kendo Association.

"The coaching structure consists of two main courses, Level 1 and Level 2. A brief description of each level is given below and see links to the opening course documents for more information:

Level 1 – Aimed at creating new coaches within the BKA. The course mainly looks at the statutory items that coaches need to be aware of such as health and safety, child protection etc. with some time devoted to developing one’s coaching style. This course is the minimum qualification needed to set up dojos within the BKA and apply for coaching insurance. The minimum grade to apply for this course is shodan.

Level 2 – Aimed at developing coaching skills into the future and “coaching athletes” i.e. how to get the best out of each of your students. Most of the course looks at developing coaching techniques and style with an emphasis on practical application. Applicants will have needed to have completed the Level 1 course as well as achieving circa 100 hours of live coaching martial arts since completing Level 1. The minimum grade to apply for this course is nidan."


Coaching Course - BJJA GB


Distance Learning
Read the Child Protection Policy

The following modules are to be read in advance for the coaching level you are taking:

NOVICE COACH
Communication Skills Code of Ethics

ASSISTANT COACH
The above modules plus
Teaching Methods Skill Classification Coaching Skills

COACH
All of the above modules plus
Safety Policy Coaches Legal Injury Prevention Cryotherapy Menstrual Cycle

SENIOR COACH
All of the above modules plus
Training Principles Developing Mental Imagery Skills Relaxation

British Aikido Board.

Coaching Information - British Aikido Board

Why wouldn't anyone want to be the best coach/instructor/teacher they can be?

 

[Tez3]

No apology necessary. A simple misunderstanding.

yeah so who really did it better own up NOW!!!

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't suggest instructors must do coaching courses but I highly recommend they do especially in this day and age.

I think that is a very reasonable position.

 

[Flying Crane]

It however is a totally different thing when teaching someone to ride for money, it's then a business whether you are making a profit or not. the rules change then. I taught my daughter to ride which is fine but to take a class is a very different kettle of fish.
Thanks for the lesson on horse-riding though, I've been riding for over 60 years doing many eventing comps along the way as well as dressage.

I agree that there is a difference between teaching within the family and friends vs. teaching for money. But that again is part of my point: that many of these skills were folk traditions, and they can still be that today, done without any coaching certificates or other similar training. Making a business about it changes that for sure. But there is no requirement that it be done that way, if simply learning the skill is the goal. I suppose competitions and such might require some kind of credentialling, but engaging in that is by no means mandatory.

And I know you have a long equestrian background and I would never presume to school you on it. I was merely adding the context for the point I was making.

 

[Flying Crane]

So in your opinion (which I do respect), is 2nd Dan, not worthy to teach upto 1st Dan?

I guess it depends on what that rank means within the context of the organization (if any) that the rank was given. I was never a fan of the notion that someone, if designated an instructor, can only give rank up to one level below their own. I feel that if someone is granted instructor status then they ought to be able to give rank up to their own level.

In my personal opinion, I don’t have much patience for the politics attached to the dan ranking system. I am glad to be training in a system now that does not bother with it.

I think there can be a tendency to use the ranking system to maintain control over people, often long past the point where those people are competent to be acting on their own and making their own decisions about training and teaching their own students.

 

[Tez3]

I agree that there is a difference between teaching within the family and friends vs. teaching for money. But that again is part of my point: that many of these skills were folk traditions, and they can still be that today, done without any coaching certificates or other similar training. Making a business about it changes that for sure. But there is no requirement that it be done that way, if simply learning the skill is the goal. I suppose competitions and such might require some kind of credentialling, but engaging in that is by no means mandatory.

And I know you have a long equestrian background and I would never presume to school you on it. I was merely adding the context for the point I was making.

However, when you want to start teaching a class of strangers you do have certain obligations, both moral and legal ones. Doing a course telling you what the legal obligations are is a very good idea, yes you can look it all up yourself, consult lawyers etc but how much easier to have the information from people who already do what you want to, plus they have experience in the problems that might arise, how to avoid certain situations you may not have thought of and how to enhance the class experience for everyone. On the course you can also learn about different ways of warming up, how people learn in different ways, how to deal with health problems, accidents, how to coach more efficiently to help your students. learn new techniques of demonstrating. People do weapons course, kata courses, take downs courses etc why not coaching courses? Isn't that a good idea?

The other thing of course is that people who don't know you are going to want proof that you know what you say you do before they give you their hard earnt money. Your black belt is a qualification of course but how much better is a coaching qualification as well especially if it's a recognised national one, it gives reassurance ( and can cut your insurance bill)

Why not learn about techniques to help your students learn, visualisation for instance. I didn't know about this but was taught about it on a martial arts coaching course, it's very useful not just in martial arts either. You may know some of the coursework already but one of the best bits of coaching course is talking to other instructors from other clubs and styles, you chat about the different types of students you've had and how you dealt with problems, you learn so much that you wouldn't just by being in your own club.

I have seen students in martial arts who have been taught by the dad, who learned 'something' when he was young, unlearning it took those students a long time and somewhat lessened dad in their eyes. learning 'folk style' doesn't always mean it's the best learning, much of what is old fashioned and deserves to be for being dangerous or just inefficient.

 

[Tez3]

My apologies for the snowflake comment, I thought you ueed it recently, but to my point, if a student is awarded 2nd Dan, is that not a qualification of compitance

I think you are mistaking my point of going on coaching courses with that of competence in martial arts. You don't go on a coaching course unless you are competent in what you teach. You usually have to be at least a brown belt to attend. The coaching courses teach things that go along side your teaching of martial arts, as well as teaching things that can make the process of teaching easier and more efficient for you and your students. It's not about what you teach but how you teach. It's about being the best instructor/coach/teacher you can be.

This from Englandboxing.org

Developing a network of coaches
England Boxing continues to develop its coaching system and is based upon three key principles:

• Boxer-centred – all coaching developments must ultimately result in a better quality of training and experience for boxers.
• Continuous learning and development – just as boxers must continuously improve in order to be successful, so too must both individual coaches and England Boxing’s coaching system.
• Voluntary workforce – the vast majority of boxing coaches are volunteers and any requirements asked of coaches must be responsibilities they can meet, both to their boxers and their sport.

 

[Flying Crane]

However, when you want to start teaching a class of strangers you do have certain obligations, both moral and legal ones. Doing a course telling you what the legal obligations are is a very good idea, yes you can look it all up yourself, consult lawyers etc but how much easier to have the information from people who already do what you want to, plus they have experience in the problems that might arise, how to avoid certain situations you may not have thought of and how to enhance the class experience for everyone. On the course you can also learn about different ways of warming up, how people learn in different ways, how to deal with health problems, accidents, how to coach more efficiently to help your students. learn new techniques of demonstrating. People do weapons course, kata courses, take downs courses etc why not coaching courses? Isn't that a good idea?

The other thing of course is that people who don't know you are going to want proof that you know what you say you do before they give you their hard earnt money. Your black belt is a qualification of course but how much better is a coaching qualification as well especially if it's a recognised national one, it gives reassurance ( and can cut your insurance bill)

Why not learn about techniques to help your students learn, visualisation for instance. I didn't know about this but was taught about it on a martial arts coaching course, it's very useful not just in martial arts either. You may know some of the coursework already but one of the best bits of coaching course is talking to other instructors from other clubs and styles, you chat about the different types of students you've had and how you dealt with problems, you learn so much that you wouldn't just by being in your own club.

I have seen students in martial arts who have been taught by the dad, who learned 'something' when he was young, unlearning it took those students a long time and somewhat lessened dad in their eyes. learning 'folk style' doesn't always mean it's the best learning, much of what is old fashioned and deserves to be for being dangerous or just inefficient.

I don’t believe I have disagreed with you on this. When you accept students (often strangers initially) and accept payment, that creates a whole new animal. I suspect some generations ago as a folk art, students who were not personally known to the instructor would be accepted upon introduction by someone who both knew and trusted. That established the legitimacy. Times are different now and the more one can enhance and credential their background, the more successful as a commercial venture they are likely to be.

Some schools remain small and grow mostly through word of mouth. This is still essentially a folk art.

In the end, these coaching and teaching courses can be valuable, I never denied that. I do not believe they we automatically essential, however.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have seen students in martial arts who have been taught by the dad, who learned 'something' when he was young, unlearning it took those students a long time and somewhat lessened dad in their eyes. learning 'folk style' doesn't always mean it's the best learning, much of what is old fashioned and deserves to be for being dangerous or just inefficient.

Sure, of course.

But there are also many examples of systems passed down from generation to generation within a family, quite successfully.

Wong Fei-Hung learned Hung-ga from his father, and became a famous Kung fu guy.

Ip Chung and Ip Ching learned Wing Chun from their father, Ip Man. Both are famous in wing Chun circles.

Ive never presented this as an “either/or” thing. I’ve simply said that it does not always essential. Like everything in life, it depends.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So in your opinion (which I do respect), is 2nd Dan, not worthy to teach upto 1st Dan?

That depends entirely how they're prepared. In the NGAA, they're certainly capable of that (and that is the standard). But they'd all be better at it with some background in how to teach (rather than just what they've picked up from watching their instructor - some of which is based on communication style/personality). Some people do a very good job of teaching - including teaching others to teach - without formal instruction in it. But that's just letting chance have its way. I'd rather improve the odds by equipping people with foundational knowledge. Some of it is pretty basic - stuff like demonstrating the thing you're explaining, before you try to explain it (so the learner's mind has something to wrap the explanation around). I'm amazed how many capable martial artists are teaching without understanding something that basic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No but I do know Joe Swift, and he buys certain perennials from me, but here is my point, to teach certain techniques in horticulture, the quality of knowledge and technique is paramount, and passing on this knowledge is fundamental to good practice or results, the same is true of ma, or do we now say, well done you just got your 2nd Dan, but you need to go to night school for 3 years and get an nvq in teaching, otherwise your teaching rubbish?

Have you ever seen someone teaching something they knew quite well, but weren't really capable of delivering that knowledge to others? The incidence of this can be reduced by teaching them how to do so. That doesn't mean some folks won't be highly capable without that additional teaching - but many will not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've known some really skilled Martial Artists who couldn't teach to save their life. Others who aren't anywhere as skilled in the Arts, but have an incredible knack for teaching.

I suppose that's true for most things, but maybe more so in Martial Arts.

On a personal note, having been in classes in more different places than most, my least favorite type of instructor are the "talkers".....three minutes of drilling then a ten minute pontification on one thing or another. Inside you're all cocked and locked and saying to yourself "stop talking and start counting already!"

This is one of my pet peeves....and something I've caught myself at more than once. I love sharing knowledge, sometimes more than is good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Horse riding is an interesting example. There are certainly teaching protocols that are descended from military traditions, but there were also many many people throughout history who learned to ride from their elders, not connected to military. Before the automobile, horse riding was extremely common, including those who never had connection to the military. Everyone learned to do it.

This is my point: these can be folk traditions that were passed along from elder to junior, without any formal coaching training. This would include teaching horseriding. You say that you could not teach without your certificate. I hold that anyone who knows how to ride can teach anyone willing to learn from him/her. Passing these skills along within a family setting is likely still a common activity within families who keep horses today.

I personally don’t make a distinction between the terms teacher and instructor. With coach, I tend to affiliate with sports, but I see a lot of the terminology as interchangeable. But I have no interest in debating those definitions. My point being that these skills can certainly be taught without formal instruction on being a coach or teacher or instructor.

Anyone who knows how to ride can attempt to teach anyone willing to learn from him/her.

Let's take driving a car. The most common method of passing this skill along is probably a parent teaching the new driver. It works. I also know some people whose parents made them absolute nervous wrecks, and they didn't learn to drive well at all until they got a formal instructor. Some of them never really recovered, and remain anxious, hesitant, and sometimes dangerous drivers to this day because of that bad teaching.

I tried to teach a girlfriend to ride a motorcycle once. She managed a little, but did much better when we took an MSF course. I later went on to teach MSF courses. The 4-week instructor prep was fantastic, and improved my MA teaching skills dramatically, too.

 

[Flying Crane]

Anyone who knows how to ride can attempt to teach anyone willing to learn from him/her.

Let's take driving a car. The most common method of passing this skill along is probably a parent teaching the new driver. It works. I also know some people whose parents made them absolute nervous wrecks, and they didn't learn to drive well at all until they got a formal instructor. Some of them never really recovered, and remain anxious, hesitant, and sometimes dangerous drivers to this day because of that bad teaching.

I tried to teach a girlfriend to ride a motorcycle once. She managed a little, but did much better when we took an MSF course. I later went on to teach MSF courses. The 4-week instructor prep was fantastic, and improved my MA teaching skills dramatically, too.

Sure, but a motor vehicle is not the same as a horse. In the age when everyone rode horses, the obvious teachers were one’s families. In the modern day, if a family still keeps horses for riding, Those family members are still the obvious choices. If one wishes to compete with horses, perhaps a new teacher is needed. But solid riding? If the family still rides, the family is the obvious choice.

Not everything requires teachers with all kinds of credentials.

 

[dvcochran]

You could still be taken to court though and end up paying for lawyers even if it wasn't proven plus your reputation could be damaged. It may not get to court but you'd still have legal fees.

True enough. But the same could be said for the person who Did take coaching classes.

I think the best we can do is put measures and practices in place consistent with other athletic organizations. There is common sense involved but I would not even go so far as to say a ton of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure, but a motor vehicle is not the same as a horse. In the age when everyone rode horses, the obvious teachers were one’s families. In the modern day, if a family still keeps horses for riding, Those family members are still the obvious choices. If one wishes to compete with horses, perhaps a new teacher is needed. But solid riding? If the family still rides, the family is the obvious choice.

Not everything requires teachers with all kinds of credentials.

It’s not really about credentials, Michael. I’m talking about skills. Yes, folks can learn from family members. But there’s no guarantee those folks are any good at teaching. I suspect in most family groups in ages past, there were people more likely to be called upon to teach those skills. Because they got better results than most folks in the family. My assertion is just that many folks will be better at teaching if they are taught solid teaching fundamentals. Whether that comes with certification or not is just decorative.