If your art has tests, are they cumulative or do your students brain dump?

[Dirty Dog]

You can get a KKW rank using Palgwe forms. We don't have the Taegeuks at my school.

Sure you can. You can get KKW rank if someone with a 4th Dan or higher signs off on the paperwork, even if you don't know ANY forms.
That doesn't mean you SHOULD be able to. Just that you can.
The KKW requirement is that you know the taegeuk poomsae. If you do not, then you're not meeting the (very) minimal standards, and you do not deserve the rank.

 

[skribs]

Sure you can. You can get KKW rank if someone with a 4th Dan or higher signs off on the paperwork, even if you don't know ANY forms.
That doesn't mean you SHOULD be able to. Just that you can.
The KKW requirement is that you know the taegeuk poomsae. If you do not, then you're not meeting the (very) minimal standards, and you do not deserve the rank.

So, if someone knows the Palgwe poomsae you think they don't deserve any consideration by Kukkiwon?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So, if someone knows the Palgwe poomsae you think they don't deserve any consideration by Kukkiwon?

Nope. Because they do not meet the Kukkiwons published (very) minimal standards for the rank. If they want Kukkiwon rank, they need to know the Kukkiwon curriculum.
It's really very simple.
You don't deserve a degree in French if you don't speak French, either. No matter how fluent you may be in Spanish.

 

[Gnarlie]

Nope. Because they do not meet the Kukkiwons published (very) minimal standards for the rank. If they want Kukkiwon rank, they need to know the Kukkiwon curriculum.
It's really very simple.
You don't deserve a degree in French if you don't speak French, either. No matter how fluent you may be in Spanish.

Doubly so if they can only perform the Palgwe form applicable to their current grade. Kukkiwon does not recognise the Palgwe other than as a relic.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The thing is, that due to their size the Kukkiwon is absolutely unable to directly confirm qualifications or knowledge of the curriculum. So they have no choice but to rely on the integrity of the person signing off on the application.
If they're signing off on a KKW application for someone who doesn't know the KKW curriculum, what does that say about their integrity?

 

[Gnarlie]

The thing is, that due to their size the Kukkiwon is absolutely unable to directly confirm qualifications or knowledge of the curriculum. So they have no choice but to rely on the integrity of the person signing off on the application.
If they're signing off on a KKW application for someone who doesn't know the KKW curriculum, what does that say about their integrity?

That's exactly why the examiner's course was started. It's a long job and won't be enforceable for a long time, but better a work in progress than nothing at all I guess. In the meantime, they have to trust people. Which they clearly can't.

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[skribs]

Are the Palgwe forms somehow defficient in teaching material? My Master knows both the Palgwes and Taegeuks, but teaches the Palgwes because he prefers the deeper stances for building strength, and for self defense. This is based on his traditional Taekwondo training and his Special Forces experience.

The attitude I'm getting is that if our school doesn't do Taegeuks, our students are not going to learn anything, or that their lessons must be inferior because we choose to use different forms. Or that our school is inferior and we're doing a disservice to our students by teaching the more traditional forms instead of the Taegeuks.

It seems to me that people who use Taegeuk forms are just looking down their nose at us because we don't have the same exact curriculum that they do.

 

[JR 137]

Are the Palgwe forms somehow defficient in teaching material? My Master knows both the Palgwes and Taegeuks, but teaches the Palgwes because he prefers the deeper stances for building strength, and for self defense. This is based on his traditional Taekwondo training and his Special Forces experience.

The attitude I'm getting is that if our school doesn't do Taegeuks, our students are not going to learn anything, or that their lessons must be inferior because we choose to use different forms. Or that our school is inferior and we're doing a disservice to our students by teaching the more traditional forms instead of the Taegeuks.

It seems to me that people who use Taegeuk forms are just looking down their nose at us because we don't have the same exact curriculum that they do.

I don’t know either of the series of forms, but I don’t think that’s it at all.

I think the feedback you’re getting is because the requirements for KKW aren’t being met (the required forms aren’t being taught), yet they calling themselves KKW. If KKW certification wasn’t mentioned, I don’t think anyone would criticize the lack of KKW forms.

Maybe I’m way off here.

 

[Gnarlie]

I don’t know either of the series of forms, but I don’t think that’s it at all.

I think the feedback you’re getting is because the requirements for KKW aren’t being met (the required forms aren’t being taught), yet they calling themselves KKW. If KKW certification wasn’t mentioned, I don’t think anyone would criticize the lack of KKW forms.

Maybe I’m way off here.

You're bang on. Everyone's free to practise what they want to practise, but offering a KKW cert based on a different (and superceded) syllabus doesn't seem right to me.

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[Headhunter]

Sure you can. You can get KKW rank if someone with a 4th Dan or higher signs off on the paperwork, even if you don't know ANY forms.
That doesn't mean you SHOULD be able to. Just that you can.
The KKW requirement is that you know the taegeuk poomsae. If you do not, then you're not meeting the (very) minimal standards, and you do not deserve the rank.

This is why I prefer now to stay away from styles that deal with ranks and testing. I hate seeing how rank is just given out like it's nothing. I know I worked my butt off for every belt I ever got and it sickens me when people who barely know anything and barely ever turn up to training get given it automatically

 

[JR 137]

This is why I prefer now to stay away from styles that deal with ranks and testing. I hate seeing how rank is just given out like it's nothing. I know I worked my butt off for every belt I ever got and it sickens me when people who barely know anything and barely ever turn up to training get given it automatically

I don’t think think they’re giving out belts for nothing in this case. I think it’s more of following a different syllabus instead of the one they’re supposed to be following.

I’m in Seido karate. We do 3 Taikyoku, 5 Pinan, 6 Goju Ryu kata, and 4 Seido specific kata before 1st dan. If my teacher substituted the 4 Seido kata for 4 other kata, he’d have no business certifying us as Seido black belts. It wouldn’t in and of itself make it bad karate nor giving away belts. Hell, it might be better karate. But better, worse or indifferent, it wouldn’t be Seido. That’s how I see this debate going.

I think the OP is the only one who actually used the McDojo term here, and it was in a defensive manner. Maybe I’m wrong; I don’t feel like going through to verify.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are the Palgwe forms somehow defficient in teaching material? My Master knows both the Palgwes and Taegeuks, but teaches the Palgwes because he prefers the deeper stances for building strength, and for self defense. This is based on his traditional Taekwondo training and his Special Forces experience.

The attitude I'm getting is that if our school doesn't do Taegeuks, our students are not going to learn anything, or that their lessons must be inferior because we choose to use different forms. Or that our school is inferior and we're doing a disservice to our students by teaching the more traditional forms instead of the Taegeuks.

It seems to me that people who use Taegeuk forms are just looking down their nose at us because we don't have the same exact curriculum that they do.

Here's my take on it, from outside the art. My classical forms (in Nihon Goshin Aikido) are not the same as those used in the NGAA. I happen to think mine are better (duh!), and I'd be surprised if folks in the NGAA agreed with me. I would not expect anyone in the NGAA to grant rank to my students for their ability to do my forms, and I would not grant rank to theirs based on their forms. It's a different curriculum. If one of my students wanted NGAA rank, I'd do my best to teach them the NGAA forms (which I used to teach), because that's what the NGAA expects them to know, and they shouldn't be able to get NGAA ranks without them.

The same goes for KKW ranks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are the Palgwe forms somehow defficient in teaching material? My Master knows both the Palgwes and Taegeuks, but teaches the Palgwes because he prefers the deeper stances for building strength, and for self defense. This is based on his traditional Taekwondo training and his Special Forces experience.

No, they're not deficient. Personally, the taegeuk forms are my least favorite of the three (taegeuk, palgwae, and chang hon) sets I practice.

The attitude I'm getting is that if our school doesn't do Taegeuks, our students are not going to learn anything, or that their lessons must be inferior because we choose to use different forms. Or that our school is inferior and we're doing a disservice to our students by teaching the more traditional forms instead of the Taegeuks.

I do not believe anybody has said this. Please provide a relevant quote.
What people (including me) HAVE actually said is that if you want KKW rank, you need to learn the KKW curriculum. Not too surprisingly, that is also the KKW's position on the subject.

 

[Flying Crane]

In my middle school math classes we didn't do quizzes on 5 + 5, 10 - 3, and 3 x 3. We still exercised those skills when we did tests on 4x + 5 = 13, we would use subtraction and division in the process of those equations.

The math analogy thing actually is pretty good if you keep it in the right context.

The basic arithmetic stuff is pretty easy to remember and it gets used in all the higher math all the time, so no, after a point you don’t need constant testing or deliberate practice with it.

But once you get into algebra, trigonometry, and calculus and higher, it requires much more ongoing practice to keep sharp with it. If you are away from it for a period of time, it grows fuzzy and gets forgotten and needs to be relearned again if you want to get back to math and go farther with it.

Like anything, use it or lose it. It’s true with math and it’s true with martial arts. Your kata are more like your advanced math. Your basic punches, kicks, and blocks are more like arithmetic.

 

[skribs]

I think the OP is the only one who actually used the McDojo term here, and it was in a defensive manner. Maybe I’m wrong; I don’t feel like going through to verify.

Post #65 is when McDojo was brought up.

 

[skribs]

The math analogy thing actually is pretty good if you keep it in the right context.

The basic arithmetic stuff is pretty easy to remember and it gets used in all the higher math all the time, so no, after a point you don’t need constant testing or deliberate practice with it.

But once you get into algebra, trigonometry, and calculus and higher, it requires much more ongoing practice to keep sharp with it. If you are away from it for a period of time, it grows fuzzy and gets forgotten and needs to be relearned again if you want to get back to math and go farther with it.

Like anything, use it or lose it. It’s true with math and it’s true with martial arts. Your kata are more like your advanced math. Your basic punches, kicks, and blocks are more like arithmetic.

Except the analogy is that the concepts are still enforced. The basic form is basic, and teaches a few concepts. The next form reinforces those concepts and adds new ones. Every time a form is superseded, the concepts in that form are retained in higher forms, which also include new concepts. Maybe a better analogy would be an anthology book series reviewing the primary plot elements in the first chapter, the 11th grade class reviewing the 10th grade material for the first few weeks of the year, or how a burrito supreme contains all the stuff of a burrito, but a few extra elements to make it supreme.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except the analogy is that the concepts are still enforced. The basic form is basic, and teaches a few concepts. The next form reinforces those concepts and adds new ones. Every time a form is superseded, the concepts in that form are retained in higher forms, which also include new concepts. Maybe a better analogy would be an anthology book series reviewing the primary plot elements in the first chapter, the 11th grade class reviewing the 10th grade material for the first few weeks of the year, or how a burrito supreme contains all the stuff of a burrito, but a few extra elements to make it supreme.

I thought his update of the math analogy supported your point. Early forms can be set aside, because (like basic math) they're easy to come back to, and the principles are contained in what comes next. More advanced forms need more visits (and less absence) to remain usable. That sounds like what happens at your school.

 

[skribs]

I thought his update of the math analogy supported your point. Early forms can be set aside, because (like basic math) they're easy to come back to, and the principles are contained in what comes next. More advanced forms need more visits (and less absence) to remain usable. That sounds like what happens at your school.

Yes. And after Black Belt everything you learn is retained. Someone testing for 4th dan has to do everything you did for your 1st dan, 1st gup test. Black belt is sort of the beginning, that you've learned the fundamentals of Taekwondo.

 

[Flying Crane]

I thought his update of the math analogy supported your point. Early forms can be set aside, because (like basic math) they're easy to come back to, and the principles are contained in what comes next. More advanced forms need more visits (and less absence) to remain usable. That sounds like what happens at your school.

Well, that was not my intention.

 

[JR 137]

Post #65 is when McDojo was brought up.

I retract my statement.