Assist instructor requirement

[Flying Crane]

double post, somehow.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you have to accept that the USA is a very different place from Europe.
You are focussed something very different from what I'm talking about.
I am talking about teaching/instructing/coaching people who are paying for that instruction and who are doing it as a hobby and/or sport. In order for them to get the best out of that instruction and to progress we have to offer them our best, that may mean ( not necessarily but it doesn't hurt to do so) doing coaching courses to make you a better, more aware coach. We have to offer them classes that give them the optimum chances to succeed in achieving their goals.




I actually said that selfsame thing many posts ago before you even answered mine. What is clouding the issue is your insistence is that it's about families teaching their children etc etc and Native Americans not needing coaching courses to teach which is not what I'm talking about, as above. You can't see the relevance of any courses to help you be a better instructor because you simply don't think you need it. You I imagine teach as your instructor did , who taught as their instructor did and if it's good enough for them it's good enough for you, right? don't mend it if it's not broken? But how do you know...………..

Ok so, apparently we are talking past each other and I never intended for that. I think we each got on our own intended message and didn’t realize we were each having our own conversation.

I also think that the equestrian discussion has become a distraction, so I’m gonna just leave it alone. I actually think that you and I don’t disagree here, but the distraction is getting in the way.

My message is in the thread, I think I’ve made myself clear for anyone who cares.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess I’m not sure what your message is in this post, as a reply to my previous post.

What I know is that in my extended family, there are members who became accomplished equestrians. Some competed in high level rodeo, I believe one cousin had a college scholarship in rodeo. The foundation of their skills came from learning from their elders, people without any formal coaching-training. As they progressed in competition, I suspect they had specialist instructors/coaches. That is usually necessary in order to reach an elite level. But the very solid foundations of their riding skills came from parents, grandparents, and perhaps uncles and aunts. Had they never competed at high level rodeo and had they never received instruction from a rodeo coach, they still would have been very very solid riders, still with good rodeo fundamentals at least. Their family members had the skills and taught them, without benefit of coaching credentials.

The horse example is a good one because modern society is mostly disconnected from horses. We no longer rely on them for work or transportation, most of us lack experience and skills with them. So for most people who might be interested in learning to ride, it makes sense to find a riding coach/teacher. But it still isn’t always necessary. Where the skills still exist, they can be taught.

I think we missed each others' points just a bit - I know a later post clarified for me your point. And I think we are pretty much in agreement - that training isn't necessary to producing good teachers, but it can help. There are certainly examples of people who learned by observing others who taught. I've also seen folks who tried to do that, and merely became poor copies of the other (because they copied the technique of teaching, without understanding the purpose of it).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

double post, somehow.

Because you didn't have good enough coaching in how to post, obviously.

 

[geezer]

I think you have to accept that the USA is a very different place from Europe...

Maybe not so different as all that. I've heard the same discussions here. On the one hand it's hard to argue against getting training in coaching methods as being helpful. On the other hand, many here in the States detest the continuous move towards requiring more and more training, certifications and licensing for every darned thing you want to do.

It's an emotionally fueled debate. As a person raised in the west (Arizona) I have a bit of that independent streak myself. Then again, I'm a high school teacher. Of course, public school teachers are required to get training and be certified, usually a university degree including by practice teaching and testing. Some of the training is BS and some is helpful. So I can see both sides.

Regarding the equestrian arts, I was taught to ride (Western style) by my grandfather on his cattle ranch near Hackberry AZ in Mojave county. That was good enough for me. But the best horseman among us was my older cousin Bill. And he got professional training by fully qualified coaches, both privately and at the University of Arizona where he was one of the best ropers on their team. ...So, depending on what you want to do, and how far you want to take it, you can definitely benefit finding a trained and highly qualified coach.

As a person who after many years in the martial arts, has dropped his association membership and now only teaches a few people semi-privately, I have to say that I would continue to do so .....that is offer private instruction for a fee without further certification, probably even if some new certification became a legal requirement. Not really the government's business. It would be different if I ran a large school open to the general public, y'know. Call me a scofflaw .

Is that so different from how folks feel in the UK?

 

[Tez3]

Maybe not so different as all that.

Well we don't have rodeos, Native Americans or the Wild West which is what I was actually meaning. Not the certification thing.


My point isn't about having certification though often new starters and parents of new starters do like to know you have some. It's about being the best instructor/coach you can be and if you take some courses that help you be that why wouldn't you? It's really as simply as that.

 

[Buka]

For me, evaluating how well an instructor teaches is to look at their students. If they're skilled, with good attitude and effort, somebody is teaching them well. I've also found that besides guiding your assistants in the ways of teaching, there's another thing you can do to help your school's students - teach them how to learn. Take advantage of the symbiotic relationship between Instructor and student.

Show them how they can recognize things in themselves, in their techniques, in their strengths and their weaknesses. Show them how to work out at home in their off times, how to figure out how to improve things they need work on through understanding the basic mechanics of simple martial arts movements. Show them how to recognize things in the other, better fighters in the dojo. I've always found that the more honest and open I am, the more they'll understand about learning. And when the light goes on, you can almost hear it snap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For me, evaluating how well an instructor teaches is to look at their students. If they're skilled, with good attitude and effort, somebody is teaching them well. I've also found that besides guiding your assistants in the ways of teaching, there's another thing you can do to help your school's students - teach them how to learn. Take advantage of the symbiotic relationship between Instructor and student.

Show them how they can recognize things in themselves, in their techniques, in their strengths and their weaknesses. Show them how to work out at home in their off times, how to figure out how to improve things they need work on through understanding the basic mechanics of simple martial arts movements. Show them how to recognize things in the other, better fighters in the dojo. I've always found that the more honest and open I am, the more they'll understand about learning. And when the light goes on, you can almost hear it snap.

Agreed - the proof is in the students. One of the things I added in my instructor training (should I ever get to actually use it) is testing students they present as ready for a given rank. If they present students they've trained to that rank, and the student is actually ready, they've done a good job.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed - the proof is in the students. One of the things I added in my instructor training (should I ever get to actually use it) is testing students they present as ready for a given rank. If they present students they've trained to that rank, and the student is actually ready, they've done a good job.

Sounds good!. I do think if you want your black belts to be instructors even assistant ones you should train them up and not present the belt and say 'ere you go mate, you're taking the classes from Monday'.

A lot of people are overthinking the 'outside' course thing, it's simply about being a better instructor, the best you can be as I've said before.
it's not about red tape or government interference ( in the UK there is no official government recognised authority for martial arts, we don't have any licencing authority for MMA as there is the US. Each style tends to have it's association, there's other associations that will take all styles, none are official ones, you don't legally have to join any at all) we aren't in danger of being over run with regulations.

Health and Safety has been mentioned, it's a big bugbear here simply because people tend to blame everything on H&S regulations whether there is any or not, it makes headlines but the H&S Executive the government regulatory body actually has a myth busters thread which debunks just about all the stories in the press. The only martial arts item I can find on the whole site is about a Judo club using a local Leisure Centre who were told that the staff there must put out the mats, not the members, for H&S reasons. The truth of that story was that the Judo club went to the Executive and it was discovered that the Leisure Centre charged the club for the staff members to put out the mats and therefore didn't want to lose money if the members did it themselves. Certain groups do want to stop contact sports but not the H&S Executive, their advice for everything is to take sensible precautions, make sure it's as safe as it can be and enjoy. They say they encourage children's adventurous play, just use common sense! Do have a look at these as some are very funny, others make you roll your eyes but worth a look just for the craic. Sports and leisure - Myth Busters Challenge Panel findings

I'd suggest not overthinking 'outside' help instead keep an open mind, it's not about regulations, we don't actually have any here in the UK about sports instructors or coaching not even for child protection issues (there's advisory stuff and you'd be a fool if you teach children not to have a child protection policy and suitable arrangements in place, just as you'd be stupid not to have public liability insurance as well as the usual ones) but it's about good practice and expanding your knowledge and capabilities. Surely we are all about that.

 

[dvcochran]

For me, evaluating how well an instructor teaches is to look at their students. If they're skilled, with good attitude and effort, somebody is teaching them well. I've also found that besides guiding your assistants in the ways of teaching, there's another thing you can do to help your school's students - teach them how to learn. Take advantage of the symbiotic relationship between Instructor and student.

Show them how they can recognize things in themselves, in their techniques, in their strengths and their weaknesses. Show them how to work out at home in their off times, how to figure out how to improve things they need work on through understanding the basic mechanics of simple martial arts movements. Show them how to recognize things in the other, better fighters in the dojo. I've always found that the more honest and open I am, the more they'll understand about learning. And when the light goes on, you can almost hear it snap.

Agree. It is a pure example of an unbalanced byproduct. Few assistant or even head instructors have the luxury of devoting an equal amount of time to their MA as compared to all the other facets of their daily life (work, family, home, etc...). Having the ability to maximize the time you have as an instructor is an impressive quality. Imprinting this quality as you teach others creates an efficiency in the teaching model that works very well.
In other words the best instructors understand time is of the essence and know how to make the best of it in all aspects of the MA's and how to translate to their students.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've been in a few taekwondo clubs where one of the requirements to be a Black belt is to be an assistant instructor.
How common is it to have it as a requirement those days?
I understand that it might be to teach the student how to run a class, and to be more comfortable to instruct claases, but I don't see the point of having it as a requirement.
Any thoughts?

In our dojo, students tend to start giving back at green belt. Not everyone can. Not everyone does. It's not a requirement for promotion in the kyu (under black belt) ranks. By the last level of brown belt (we have three), most students are doing at least something in the way of teaching. Again, they don't have to.

We have students who stay a few minutes late to help clean up. We have some who bring in supplies, such as paper towels or water. We have some who help other students, particularly new students, to learn the basics.

Black belts are often asked to step up and lead a class now and again. They can decline, although I don't know of any who have done so.

By third dan in our dojo, one is addressed as 'sensei' and that means 'teacher'. If you're a sensei, you teach, under supervision.

Based on the standards for the higher black belts ranks as I understand them, after fourth dan, promotions are based on time, age, and how much you give back to the dojo and to the art.

 

[Tez3]

We have students who stay a few minutes late to help clean up. We have some who bring in supplies, such as paper towels or water. We have some who help other students, particularly new students, to learn the basics.

Something that is always appreciated whether a commercial school or a club as we are.

Black belts are often asked to step up and lead a class now and again.

I think that is a good idea, sometimes you need an extra hand or someone to take a class while you deal with something.

By third dan in our dojo, one is addressed as 'sensei' and that means 'teacher'. If you're a sensei, you teach, under supervision.

We call all our instructors 'sensei' but it's explained that we use the literal translation ( one who has gone before) rather than the honorific/everyday Japanese way as you do, just a preference on our part.

Based on the standards for the higher black belts ranks as I understand them, after fourth dan, promotions are based on time, age, and how much you give back to the dojo and to the art.

This we do as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

For me, evaluating how well an instructor teaches is to look at their students. If they're skilled, with good attitude and effort, somebody is teaching them well. I've also found that besides guiding your assistants in the ways of teaching, there's another thing you can do to help your school's students - teach them how to learn. Take advantage of the symbiotic relationship between Instructor and student.

Show them how they can recognize things in themselves, in their techniques, in their strengths and their weaknesses. Show them how to work out at home in their off times, how to figure out how to improve things they need work on through understanding the basic mechanics of simple martial arts movements. Show them how to recognize things in the other, better fighters in the dojo. I've always found that the more honest and open I am, the more they'll understand about learning. And when the light goes on, you can almost hear it snap.

Interesting, I was recently having some similar thoughts.

The way I would state it is: teach them how to practice. Teach them effective ways to practice when they don’t have training partners, and effective ways to practice when they do.

Martial arts is mostly about practice, because that is how the vast majority of time is spent. Very little time in comparison is spent fighting. So you teach them how to effectively practice. That can last a lifetime.

 

[Tez3]

Martial arts is mostly about practice, because that is how the vast majority of time is spent. Very little time in comparison is spent fighting.

We fight a lot.

 

[Flying Crane]

We fight a lot.

Depends on how you define it.

I would include sparring with classmates as training time.

I would include competition fighting as a form of fighting. I would include hostile fighting outside of class, as fighting.

Do you spend more time fighting in a competition or getting in fights at the local bar than you spend practicing?

 

[Tez3]

Depends on how you define it.

I would include sparring with classmates as training time.

I would include competition fighting as a form of fighting. I would include hostile fighting outside of class, as fighting.

Do you spend more time fighting in a competition or getting in fights at the local bar than you spend practicing?

We fight in MMA competitions, I previously fought in full contact kick boxing and karate competitions.

Our students don't actually 'get into' fights in local bars, it's mostly civilians who want to show they can beat up a Para or an infantry soldier, which of course they can't.

Our students have fought in Iraq, Africa and Afghanistan, two died in the latter country.

 

[Flying Crane]

We fight in MMA competitions, I previously fought in full contact kick boxing and karate competitions.

Our students don't actually 'get into' fights in local bars, it's mostly civilians who want to show they can beat up a Para or an infantry soldier, which of course they can't.

Our students have fought in Iraq, Africa and Afghanistan, two died in the latter country.

So...do you spend more time fighting in MMA than you do practicing to fight in MMA?

 

[Tez3]

So...do you spend more time fighting in MMA than you do practicing to fight in MMA?

We don't 'practice' MMA we train BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, wrestling, karate and anything else that is useful.
No amount of 'practice' can actually prepare you for an actual fight whether it's in the cage, in a pub or in a warzone. Practice techniques all you like but it all goes to hell when the first punch is thrown of the bullets fly.

 

[Flying Crane]

We don't 'practice' MMA we train BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, wrestling, karate and anything else that is useful.
No amount of 'practice' can actually prepare you for an actual fight whether it's in the cage, in a pub or in a warzone. Practice techniques all you like but it all goes to hell when the first punch is thrown of the bullets fly.

Seriously, I do not understand what your message is here.

My guess: are you drawing a distinction between the word “practice” and “train”? I take those two words as interchangeable.

I do not believe for a moment that you spend more time in the MMA ring in actual competition than you do practicing, or training, or whatever else you might want to call it.

 

[Tez3]

Seriously, I do not understand what your message is here.

My guess: are you drawing a distinction between the word “practice” and “train”? I take those two words as interchangeable.

I do not believe for a moment that you spend more time in the MMA ring in actual competition than you do practicing, or training, or whatever else you might want to call it.

Personally I do spend a lot of time in the cage lol, I ref and corner so on some fight nights I can spend quite a few hours in the cage. Longer if you count the time putting it up and taking it down. Doing this a lot of weekends does mean that I can spend an inordinate time in the cage.

I don't understand what you mean by 'my message'. I don't have any message I was just conversing.

We call it training, perhaps because we are either military or ex military and we say training, 'practising' to us seems less intense as if you are just going over techniques instead of actually using them. When we train we use the techniques on each other we don't go through the motions, we go at about 80%.
So really, to us, practising is going through the motions, like punching in the air that sort of thing whereas training is punching bags properly. Just how we roll.

Not saying anything other than that is how we do it.