Arts that teach knife and gun defense

[Danny T]

Awareness isn't seeing a threat and reacting to it. Awareness is putting the seemingly unrelated set of circumstances that together contain that threat.

^^^^THIS^^^^
I concur.

 

[skribs]

If you train disarms correctly they are fine, but many places dont do it correctly and lack context etc. ie the knife defence i have seen at TKD is complete crap, what shiv works does is good.

Plus a disarm is only one component of figthing over a weapon, you need to learn when to strike, how to create diversions when to use them and also how to control the limb etc and do real life drills and stress tests. You cant just do the whole if they do X, you retialte with Y. Even the techniques that work in some systems have lost their context for how to actually do them in reality and not just demos or drills or against non resiting persons, or forgetting they exist as a means to turn certain death into less than certain death but not fully not death.


Somone might have put a similar perspective down, but i dont stray that far in view from some other people.

Also its not just TKD, i have seen terrible knife defence elsewhere, but they generally do similar training methods that are just bad. i also dont belive in the "just run away" school of thought as you dont always have that luxary, but i also dont follow the delisions of your not going to get cut or shot or run the risk of both if you fight over a knife or pistol.

edit: plus a lot of people who teach this dont know how to fight with a firearm nor a knife. so that also breeds bad habits and misconceptions about the two. at least the bad teachers. there are plenty of firearm schools that teach fighting over a pistol as part of a close combat class or curriculem.

Have you started training yet?

That is my opinion of what I have experience with. What others are doing and that I have no experience with, I cannot claim a valid opinion.

As to your second question, I’m not really sure. What I do feel confident about however, is being able to recognize some bad ideas when I see them. And there are different grades of bad, to be sure. But when you are working on these things and a little voice in the back of your head is saying “hmmmm...not sure I am buying this...” listen to the voice. There may be something there that is salvageable. Perhaps it needs more practice or more study or more explanation. But listen to the voice and don’t just take someone’s word for it when you’ve got misgivings.

The part I bolded is a position I wish more people would take. A lot of people tend to extrapolate "my experience is X, therefore everything is X."

My instructor is retired army. The knife & gun self defense he teaches is what he learned in the army. Still, I don’t feel like there is any realistic gun defense unless you happen to be behind the guy with the gun. Of course I know nothing about guns except a healthy fear so I could be wrong.

As for knife, I’m a bit more optimistic. That may be partially due to the old style I trained with. It certainly wasn’t a McDojo as the members didn’t have a set fee. The suggested donation was $2/week (mid 1990’s) but you weren’t turned away if you couldn’t pay. It was non-competitive and the whole focus was in self-defense. We had a drill called “walk the street” which involved everyone lined up in two rows facing each other. One person would be at the end of the row with their back to the rows. My Sensei would pick 1-3 attackers and give some or all of them knives and then when everything was hidden the student would turn around and “walk down the street.” The student would have to defend against whatever came at them. We used wooden knives so we didn’t actually get hurt, but it was a very intimidating drill. We often did it outside after dark with only the headlights on one car pointed at us to see by (which often. Could be blinding too). I felt like this was a fairly decent way of testing knife self defense. It was always stressed that if it was a robbery of some sort, generally the best way to get out alive is to just give the guy your wallet.


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I like the sound of that drill. This is the type of thing we do in Hapkido (partner up, one person attack the other defend). It adds aliveness to the self-defense training and gives you a chance to spar with it.

As to your healthy fear of guns, I just want to say that the more people know about guns, the less they tend to fear them. I've taken people who were nervous about guns to the shooting range, and taught them proper gun safety and basic shooting technique. Typically they will be less afraid of guns after that experience. Not all of them convert to gun nuts like me, but most of them are at least okay with me being a gun nut after that. (My sister was one of those).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A few thoughts ...

1. A large percentage of the unarmed defenses vs knife or gun taught in many schools are absolute crap that will get you killed even against an attacker who is unskilled with the weapon. Training these may actually increase the students likelihood of being killed in an assault if they attempt the techniques they've been taught rather than running or negotiating or picking up an improvised weapon.
2. Even the most technically sound unarmed defenses are very low percentage against an attacker who knows how to use their weapon. They have a higher probability of success against an unskilled attacker, but even then the odds are not nearly as good as you would want.
3. Even the best unarmed defenses against weapons are relatively untested compared to other techniques. When I teach a right cross, I can draw on my own experience of throwing that exact punch successfully and unsuccessfully many times in sparring sessions, in the ring, and in the street as well as the collective experience of thousands of other individuals throwing literally millions of punches in all sorts of contexts. We have tons of evidence for what works, what doesn't and the nuances which make a difference. We don't have that kind of evidence for unarmed defense against knives and guns. The overwhelming majority of martial arts instructors have never disarmed a knife wielding attacker in real life even once. Of those who have done so, only a few have done it more than once. Nobody has done it hundreds of times. We have very little video evidence of people successfully performing such techniques. From the examples I have seen and the people I've talked to who have done it, it often comes down to using an improvised weapon or managing a sneak attack on an individual who was brandishing the weapon but not currently attacking with it. None of this means that the techniques we practice can't work, but it does mean that we don't have the body of evidence we would want to properly evaluate and polish those techniques.
4. I do practice weapon defenses and have had some success using them in sparring. I'm also aware that said sparring is a limited tool for evaluating my weapon defenses. It's just the best tool I have.
5. Someone who really wants to kill you with a knife and knows how to use it will typically apply the knife as an ambush tool. The intent is that you will never see the knife. Your best defense is awareness to spot the knife ahead of time. More often than not, a displayed knife is intended as a threat to get you to cooperate. This is why I'm skeptical of knife defenses that start with you waiting to react to an attacker lunging in with a long range knife stab that you see coming.
6. Someone who wants to kill you with a gun and knows how to use it will typically just shoot you from a range where any unarmed defense is moot. A gun displayed from close range is more likely intended as a threat to make you cooperate.
7. Based on my experience sparring against weapons, I don't believe even the best unarmed defenses have much chance unless you have a solid foundation in grappling and striking skills to make them work.
8. Knowing how to use the weapon you are fighting against also makes a difference in your likelihood of success.

Mostly, just what Tony says here.

I teach and train weapon defenses. For the most part, they're simply adjustments of techniques. The most important part of the knife defenses, actually, is starting with the assumption there may be one, so dealing with punches is adjusted slightly to that end. The other significant adjustment is "owning" the weapon arm. Since you're unlikely to want to let go of it if you get it (reasonable emotional response to a knife, for instance), we practice what to do once you have that arm in your possession, where that's a different approach from "normal".

It's all going to be low-percentage. Always. I demonstrated this at my old school last year with some 2-man knife attacks. I got them to actually use what they knew in the attacks, and everyone "died" (including me). The dojo got very quiet - they weren't used to failing that way. Then I took a few minutes to talk about what percentages really are like, and that we're just working to shift the odds a bit.

I'd rather run away. But I'm not as fast as I once was, and don't trust my speed to escape someone younger and fit. But I don't spend a lot of time training weapon defense. I spend about as much time teaching them to use the weapons (to one of Tony's points) as defending against them.

To me, mostly, the value of weapon defense training is just to have a chance to explore (like you were suggesting the wrestler might do) to see what gives better odds in the simulation. And we all acknowledge that the "attack" in the dojo is always a simulation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Awareness isn't seeing a threat and reacting to it. Awareness is putting the seemingly unrelated set of circumstances that together contain that threat.

And that's REALLY hard to train without consistent exposure. It's pattern recognition, which uses some pretty fuzzy logic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is a tricky statement.

Ok so say I only practice defending when the knife is out. And you practice being ambushed. I think I would walk away with the better skills.

And this is because if we both got ambushed we would both be screwed where if we did not get ambushed I would have drilled that more comprehensively.

Good point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they actually work in context. ie if you employt it right in context it will lead to a disarm more times than not. But as i stated more to fighting over a weapon than just disarms, but some just dont work at all.

I'm not sure that's true of all disarms, nor even the majority of those I've seen. Some simply ignore better options and make the situation worse.

 

[skribs]

I'm not sure that's true of all disarms, nor even the majority of those I've seen. Some simply ignore better options and make the situation worse.

Can you give an example?

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

There is plenty of solid knife defenses as long as you understand the reality of the high risk situation. You can have good defense in a fight or self defense encounter and still take a few shots, same thing with a knife just that there is a much higher risk. Also as mentioned before training attacking with a knife will help you and your partner get better at defense.

 

[Buka]

I’m looking forward to reading what you have to say.

I had planned on addressing this last night after work. Unfortunately, I was going over the new Department of Agriculture’s latest new rules about bringing in a puppy from the mainland. They have made it impossible. Our plans on bringing one in, that we’ve been working on for months, are now moot.
Man, am I bummed.

Anyway, probably tonight.

 

[Flying Crane]

I had planned on addressing this last night after work. Unfortunately, I was going over the new Department of Agriculture’s latest new rules about bringing in a puppy from the mainland. They have made it impossible. Our plans on bringing one in, that we’ve been working on for months, are now moot.
Man, am I bummed.

Anyway, probably tonight.

I’m sorry to hear that. We were dealing with that with our cats, when the plan was to move to Maui.

 

[Buka]

I’m sorry to hear that. We were dealing with that with our cats, when the plan was to move to Maui.

I love it here. But the State politicians make everything difficult. They have made being crooked into an ugly form of art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can you give an example?

I'll try. I've seen a knife defense taught that grabs at the hand holding a "threatening" knife (not actually attacking with it), and does a quick reversal to disarm. Think kote gaeshi, if you're familiar with that term, but all from a static start, with almost no footwork. This is an extreme example - so much bad in this - but I've seen similar with gun disarms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had planned on addressing this last night after work. Unfortunately, I was going over the new Department of Agriculture’s latest new rules about bringing in a puppy from the mainland. They have made it impossible. Our plans on bringing one in, that we’ve been working on for months, are now moot.
Man, am I bummed.

Anyway, probably tonight.

Man, that sucks.

 

[CB Jones]

One problem is all the really cool looking movie style disarms that aren't that realistic in real life.

In reality, when disarming someone with a knife you are probably going to get cut and you better disarm them quickly and violently.

When I was cut...the guy never held the knife up in front of me to grab. He stayed bladed with the knife in his back hand down by his side until he swiped forward at me and cut me across the shoulder.

 

[Nc1992]

One problem is all the really cool looking movie style disarms that aren't that realistic in real life.

In reality, when disarming someone with a knife you are probably going to get cut and you better disarm them quickly and violently.

When I was cut...the guy never held the knife up in front of me to grab. He stayed bladed with the knife in his back hand down by his side until he swiped forward at me and cut me across the shoulder.

I second what CB Jones says. My experience was similar only with a difference in where he aimed and I got cut.

Biggest mistake I see with knife defense in a lot of places is sitting and waiting for him to make the first move. The minute you know the knife is in play whatever strategy you have should be centered on quick and violent action. Your gonna get cut, what you have control over in acting first is how long he’s gonna have the opportunity to cut you.


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[jobo]

I second what CB Jones says. My experience was similar only with a difference in where he aimed and I got cut.

Biggest mistake I see with knife defense in a lot of places is sitting and waiting for him to make the first move. The minute you know the knife is in play whatever strategy you have should be centered on quick and violent action. Your gonna get cut, what you have control over in acting first is how long he’s gonna have the opportunity to cut you.


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i agree entirely with this and what cb jones said.

it seems to me that most of the people saying how they or you should train knife disarms have never been in a knife fight

this is so easy to stress test, get someone who is reasonably able, give them a wooden knife and tell them you'll give them 10 dollars every time they stick it in you ( which hurts by the way, if it doesn't hurt they are not doing it properly)

by the time you owe them two hundred dollars and your covered in bruises it may occur to you that your knife disarm needs work

doing this ONLY with compliant partner drills is as close to assisted suicide as it possible to get

 

[CB Jones]

Trying disarming a permanent marker from a partner and see how many marks you end up with.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I'm not sure that's true of all disarms, nor even the majority of those I've seen. Some simply ignore better options and make the situation worse.

Maybe. but you dont know the type until you break out the shock knife or paint knife and put it to use. I have seen either extracted from other places, or things that look like they would work or make sense, just with any practical context and training taken out of it. I am for beliving that the classic weapon strip you see works and is probbly quite effective at stripping weapons, just you arent learning how to do that against somone who is reasisting in a dyanmic and realstic enviroment. (which might not even have you fight over the weapon as you could just draw yours if you have one, or keeping running around a table or something or not have you use that technique taught in lieu of just ground and pounding them or something. etc)


Firearm disarms are very much a the gunman has messed up severaly. The only cases you see them really work is the person has gotten in too close and/or attacked from a distraction or something like that. But still its a chance at surving if you manage to get the drop on somone to be in that position compared to next to none or being on the same level as them fighting over a weapon. And fighting over your (training)pistol for example in a controlled enviroment several times before having to do it for real would probbly translate into you having a better time. For who ever mentioned pistols. last bit is true for any weapons really.

edit: the chances become slightly better if you start talking about long guns and carbines just because they are longer and there are situations where that puts them at a disadvantage that a pistol woulndt have due to length. Like i recall two police constables grappling over a shotgun with somone. No idea if it was real or fake and i think some others might have done similar things.

Second edit: also if we start talking about longsword, FMA sparring, sword and buckler etc here, grappling if not disallowed by the rules and stripping of weapons is legit and done quite a bit in full contact matches in HEMA and the like. As soon as you close in to grapple range your fair game. which i dont think was the scope or intented scope of this thread, but whats the diffrence really? Only weapons and contexts.

 

[skribs]

Maybe. but you dont know the type until you break out the shock knife or paint knife and put it to use. I have seen either extracted from other places, or things that look like they would work or make sense, just with any practical context and training taken out of it. I am for beliving that the classic weapon strip you see works and is probbly quite effective at stripping weapons, just you arent learning how to do that against somone who is reasisting in a dyanmic and realstic enviroment. (which might not even have you fight over the weapon as you could just draw yours if you have one, or keeping running around a table or something or not have you use that technique taught in lieu of just ground and pounding them or something. etc)


Firearm disarms are very much a the gunman has messed up severaly. The only cases you see them really work is the person has gotten in too close and/or attacked from a distraction or something like that. But still its a chance at surving if you manage to get the drop on somone to be in that position compared to next to none or being on the same level as them fighting over a weapon. And fighting over your (training)pistol for example in a controlled enviroment several times before having to do it for real would probbly translate into you having a better time. For who ever mentioned pistols. last bit is true for any weapons really.

edit: the chances become slightly better if you start talking about long guns and carbines just because they are longer and there are situations where that puts them at a disadvantage that a pistol woulndt have due to length. Like i recall two police constables grappling over a shotgun with somone. No idea if it was real or fake and i think some others might have done similar things.

Second edit: also if we start talking about longsword, FMA sparring, sword and buckler etc here, grappling if not disallowed by the rules and stripping of weapons is legit and done quite a bit in full contact matches in HEMA and the like. As soon as you close in to grapple range your fair game. which i dont think was the scope or intented scope of this thread, but whats the diffrence really? Only weapons and contexts.

Long guns have more points of contact with the body, are ridiculously more stable than handguns, and quite often have a sling that makes it even more difficult. A long gun's barrel is also going to be closer to you than a handgun because of how you hold it. Where are you getting your information from?

 

[Buka]