Are these effective SD skills?

[Brandon Fisher]

Sometimes the most awkward techniques and ones that don't look like they work when done at that speed are some of the most painful most effective techniques. I am not sure I would want to experience the amount pain Hatsumi Sensei could apply but want a treat it would to be able to train with him

 

[Davejlaw]

This thread has gotten ridiculous already but I do have to add this: Would thousands and thousands of Japanese ninjas in feudal Japan over hundreds of years PLUS all the people that study budo-taijitsu today waste their time studying an art that as ROnin says "doesn't work"? Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I think that argument as a few flaws. First there are apparently some (not me) who doubt the authenticity of the arts lineage. Second arts "preserved" for hundreds of years and turned into "arts" instead of combat techniques may have changed significantly from the techniques that were used in combat "back in the day".

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?

Exactly my point.

 

[Davejlaw]

Blotan: It is my understanding, and I'm a student of HapKiDo so I'm no expert, that Hatsumi is the last living person to actually be trained by the last living ninja (who is long gone now) So, Hatsumi should be teaching the NON-watered down techniques from the combat ninja repertoire (unless he's witholding information and secrets!)

 

[Rook]

This thread has gotten ridiculous already but I do have to add this: Would thousands and thousands of Japanese ninjas in feudal Japan over hundreds of years PLUS all the people that study budo-taijitsu today waste their time studying an art that as ROnin says "doesn't work"?

Bad arguement. Lots of stuff either could be done better in a different manner, or was designed as specific counters to techniques or movements no longer common, or in situations that are unlikely today. In addition, like most TMAs, the lineage of Hatsumi's art is hardly rock solid.

Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?

The Gracies HAVE broken the arms of people who did not tap out. They have choked people out - probably into the hundreds. The Gracies tend not to rely on demonstrations with compliant partners from their own system for their public face. Their videos and internet clips are filled with full-contact fights that end in surrender of non-compliant opponents (not students or friends).

 

[Flatlander]

The Gracies HAVE broken the arms of people who did not tap out. They have choked people out - probably into the hundreds. The Gracies tend not to rely on demonstrations with compliant partners from their own system for their public face. Their videos and internet clips are filled with full-contact fights that end in surrender of non-compliant opponents (not students or friends).

Certainly. However, when they or their endorsed instructors are in the process of teaching their students, they slow things down a tad, don't they? They allow their students the opportunity to feel. We don't all start at full speed, correct? Given that, why are we using a seminar video wherein Hatsumi is teaching his students the ways of his art as evidence as to the efficacy of the art?

I have a question: how many people out there that watch televised pro fighting events say to themselves, "I bet I could kick that guy's *** on the street." I'd wager that happens more often that we'd like to think. Seems to me that the person most qualified to make that distinction would be the person on the mat, no? The person feeling what's going on? Seems logical. Pretty easy to sit there and watch and make a judgement or assumption about what's really going on there.

So, with that in mind, I'd just like to close here suggesting that I believe Hatsumi's ability to handle himself in a physical confrontation to be more than adequate. He's been training for a long time. Never met the man, but I've met a couple that have, and I certainly don't question their ability. But then again, I've felt it.

 

[Davejlaw]

I have a decent understanding of the human anatomy and its limitations. The Hatsumi techniques are not so different from Hapkido techniques and there is no reason why they would be ineffective. I don't know why there is so much doubt surrounding this man and his system (perhaps because ninjas are involved and the man is 76) but if learned correctly it should work as well as any martial art. If combined with a groundfighting art it should make a pretty well rounded fighter.

 

[Bigshadow]

was designed as specific counters to techniques or movements no longer common, or in situations that are unlikely today.

Here in lies the issue. People think that somehow because we are so advanced today technologically that it also extends to every aspect of our existance, but it is a fallicy to believe that.

Do you really think humans today attack other humans any different than they did 1000 years ago? What other than a strike, kick, tackle, or other various but limited amount of things a human can do physically, do you think people do today? Unless there are some people walking around that have 3 arms 4 legs, and two heads and tail, I doubt seriously we are seeing anything in human physical combat that is NEW that they didn't see 1000 years ago.

This is regards to unarmed conflict.

 

[Davejlaw]

Yes Shadow, that was part of the point I was trying to make. Thanks!

 

[Rook]

Here in lies the issue. People think that somehow because we are so advanced today technologically that it also extends to every aspect of our existance, but it is a fallicy to believe that.

Do you really think humans today attack other humans any different than they did 1000 years ago? What other than a strike, kick, tackle, or other various but limited amount of things a human can do physically, do you think people do today? Unless there are some people walking around that have 3 arms 4 legs, and two heads and tail, I doubt seriously we are seeing anything in human physical combat that is NEW that they didn't see 1000 years ago.

This is regards to unarmed conflict.

Not so much "advanced" as different. There are loads of stuff in many traditional arts geared towards defeating specific tactics or techniques that are not common in streetfights or MMA matches or whatever today.

I met a guy who was explaining how various Bak Mei kung fu movements countered certain Shaolin tactics or attacks. These particular movements would not have been particularly effective against, say, boxing, but they served that goal. Its basically like having a good sprawl in your techniques for a kickboxing match - its a useful tactic, but not against the opponent you are facing.

For another example, look at the effect of clothing on koryu JJJ. Some systems have throws that work on a man in a kimono, but won't work on the tighter judo gi. Judo has throws that will work on the gi, but not on a bare-chested opponent. These techniques require modification before they can be applied in many modern street situations.

So yes, people attack differently even in different parts of the world today without even looking at countering trained fighters.

 

[Rook]

Certainly. However, when they or their endorsed instructors are in the process of teaching their students, they slow things down a tad, don't they? They allow their students the opportunity to feel. We don't all start at full speed, correct? Given that, why are we using a seminar video wherein Hatsumi is teaching his students the ways of his art as evidence as to the efficacy of the art?

That was pretty much exactly my point - we need to see application in order to be able to make conclusions about the efficacy of the art. The video doesn't tell us much.

 

[Bigshadow]

Not so much "advanced" as different. There are loads of stuff in many traditional arts geared towards defeating specific tactics or techniques that are not common in streetfights or MMA matches or whatever today.

:bs: I can't believe I used *that*. Are you looking for things that are effective in competition or combat? They are not the same! If you want competition, I can't offer anything there.

 

[Bigshadow]

For another example, look at the effect of clothing on koryu JJJ. Some systems have throws that work on a man in a kimono, but won't work on the tighter judo gi. Judo has throws that will work on the gi, but not on a bare-chested opponent. These techniques require modification before they can be applied in many modern street situations.

They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another. If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another. If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.

Good point!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[shesulsa]

It's also a big mistake to think that all traditional martial artists train exclusively in a traditional" manner. Curriculum is often "traditional" however many arts are including supplementary training such as working out in street clothes with shoes on, reality-based attacks and defense against such.

Traditional training should not be solely aligned to a laundry list of things to do to get the next rank - it is about learning rudiments and approaches and training the mind and body.

So the next question would likely be, 'If traditional training isn't enough then why bother?' The answer to that is the unteachable lessons. The self-analysis and development of one's own skill set that must be realized through time, exposure and other tenets of traditional training.

 

[Rook]

It's also a big mistake to think that all traditional martial artists train exclusively in a traditional" manner. Curriculum is often "traditional" however many arts are including supplementary training such as working out in street clothes with shoes on, reality-based attacks and defense against such.

Traditional training should not be solely aligned to a laundry list of things to do to get the next rank - it is about learning rudiments and approaches and training the mind and body.

So the next question would likely be, 'If traditional training isn't enough then why bother?' The answer to that is the unteachable lessons. The self-analysis and development of one's own skill set that must be realized through time, exposure and other tenets of traditional training.

Well, most martial training is changing to some degree - with the exception of certain hard-core koryu people, most martial arts are practiced differently than they were even 10 years ago.

 

[Kreth]

If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.

And here I thought I was the only one that trained my throws while wearing heels... :uhyeah:

 

[Rook]

They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another. If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.

So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth? The differences aren't minor nuances.

 

[Kreth]

So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth? The differences aren't minor nuances.

I don't think he was saying that at all. You need to adjust throws depending on those variables, or in some cases use a completely different throw or technique.