Are these effective SD skills?

[RoninPimp]

If you are ever in central Florida and would like to do a little training with us, let me know, we would be happy to have you visit. Maybe we could answer your questions.

This is an invite not a challenge.

-Thanks. I understand the difference completely!

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-I would argue that if the concepts and techniques of Hatsumi's teachings are real and practical, then it could be explained with words or video that wouldn't require my $ and/or a huge time comitment.

If there was full audio, if it wasn't a highlights reel, if we understood Japanese, and the Japanese, it might make sence faster. Those with the depth of experience can see farther into what little was offered than you can. It's that simple. It's like explaining "Blue" to a blind man, who has never seen.

 

[RoninPimp]

If there was full audio, if it wasn't a highlights reel, if we understood Japanese, and the Japanese, it might make sence faster. Those with the depth of experience can see farther into what little was offered than you can. It's that simple. It's like explaining "Blue" to a blind man, who has never seen.

-And if a bullfrog had wings...

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

You very simply lack the experience and mindset to understand.
There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
There are those with a little training.
There are those who train in some art, but not yours
There are those who train in your art.

Against the first 2, common skills will work.
Against the third, you must up your game.
Against the last, you must be a true artist.

Part of what he teaches is very traditional. It is the passing down and preservation of techniques, that as taught, are not of immediate use today. But there is a need to preserve knowledge as so much is lost to us each year. Sport fighters do not need this. It would distract them, confuse them, and lessen their sport-fighting game. Ken Shamrock has no need to know how to defend against an armour wearing sword swinging attacker.

Part of what he teaches will work, in the street, if needed. But, why would I use the fancy stuff, if a right hook is all it takes to plant your lame *** out?

Do you understand, or must I get a smaller spoon?

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Warning:

Gentlemen, enough of this. Please see that this conversation turns polite, respectful and snipe-free.

Feel free to use the "ignore feature" if need be.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Sr. Moderator

 

[Captain Harlock]

Having had the pleasure of watching numerous videos of Dr. Hatsumi's skills, I have no doubt in his ability. He appeared to be enjoying himself in the clip. While it was not full speed techniques, his speed and precision is most assuredly, excellent, even for a man half his age.

 

[Don Roley]

There has to be some mystical, complicated "system" that satisfies peoples "invincibility desire".

I see nothing of that in the Bujinkan training I do in Japan. Nothing mystical about it. Luring a guy into a fully commited attack so that you can use that power against him can be explained in some pretty flowery ways by some of the snake-oil salesmen every art has. But it all seems pretty simple to me.

Of course, this type of play and deception really will not go over in the ring when the other guy is there to compete and knows you are not an idiot, scared or unskilled. But if you look at the tapes of people pulled over by police that try to attack them, fully commited attacks are the standard and not the types of things you see in the UFC.

 

[RoninPimp]

You very simply lack the experience and mindset to understand.
There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
There are those with a little training.
There are those who train in some art, but not yours
There are those who train in your art.

Against the first 2, common skills will work.
Against the third, you must up your game.
Against the last, you must be a true artist.

Part of what he teaches is very traditional. It is the passing down and preservation of techniques, that as taught, are not of immediate use today. But there is a need to preserve knowledge as so much is lost to us each year. Sport fighters do not need this. It would distract them, confuse them, and lessen their sport-fighting game. Ken Shamrock has no need to know how to defend against an armour wearing sword swinging attacker.

Part of what he teaches will work, in the street, if needed. But, why would I use the fancy stuff, if a right hook is all it takes to plant your lame *** out?

Do you understand, or must I get a smaller spoon?

-So if you have no experiance in Ninjitsu, how are you so able to unnderstand what they do so well.

-I have no problem with preserving obsolete battle techniques for history's sake. But my question was about SD effectiveness. Are you then saying that the demonstrated techniques are not SD effective?

 

[RoninPimp]

I see nothing of that in the Bujinkan training I do in Japan. Nothing mystical about it. Luring a guy into a fully commited attack so that you can use that power against him can be explained in some pretty flowery ways by some of the snake-oil salesmen every art has. But it all seems pretty simple to me.

Of course, this type of play and deception really will not go over in the ring when the other guy is there to compete and knows you are not an idiot, scared or unskilled. But if you look at the tapes of people pulled over by police that try to attack them, fully commited attacks are the standard and not the types of things you see in the UFC.

-So why train a flowery technique(like was demonstrated) for a big commited attack, if something simpler will do?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-So why train a flowery technique(like was demonstrated) for a big commited attack, if something simpler will do?

I'll quote here as the answer to your question is in the post prior to the one I am quoting.

"There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
There are those with a little training.
There are those who train in some art, but not yours
There are those who train in your art.

Against the first 2, common skills will work.
Against the third, you must up your game.
Against the last, you must be a true artist."

 

[Rook]

On the one hand, I acknowledge that these are demos, not application and that this is a seminar not a challenge match. On the other, I have difficulty believing that some of these things could actually work as shown.

One of the annoying things about arts like Hatsumi's and the systema shown is that they post copius amounts of training footage but none at all of them actually applying what they learned (ie fighting non-compliant non-practiticioners of their art). I would appreciate it if someone would find a way to post some BBT vs. something else or being used in a streetfight somewhere so we would know what we're looking at.

Only seeing these short excerps from training, it is hard to tell anything about a style except that it seems to use compliant ukes and have throws.

The assertion of Hatsumi's great fighting ability aside, I haven't seen anything that seems to reinforce the efficacy of what he teaches. I don't necessarily doubt that its there, but it would really help his case if the BBT guys could post something besides the most crazy looking training drills. Until then, everyone can only make assumptions based on what little they see - and that tends not to be very positive.

Only one way to find out if Hatsumi can fight for real. Someone has to see if Helio Gracie is up for one last match.

 

[Hand Sword]

A match would still have rules. So, the reality of it would be questioned. A better solution...Helio and Hatsumi, in the school yard, at midnight, no hold barred, with witnesses and video recorders!

 

[Bigshadow]

On the other, I have difficulty believing that some of these things could actually work as shown.

Only seeing these short excerps from training, it is hard to tell anything about a style except that it seems to use compliant ukes and have throws.

The assertion of Hatsumi's great fighting ability aside, I haven't seen anything that seems to reinforce the efficacy of what he teaches.

With all due respect... The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques. It is alive, it must be felt. In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet. Other people do, some sort of do.

Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train. I am sure your questions will be answered.

I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING. I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply. Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hatsumi is one of those rare individuals that immediately
impresses almost anyone he comes into contact with.
If you have a chance to train with him then I would
suggest that you do so and the sooner the better!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[MJS]

With all due respect... The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques. It is alive, it must be felt. In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet. Other people do, some sort of do.

Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train. I am sure your questions will be answered.

I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING. I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply. Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.

I've pretty much just lurked on this thread, due to the fact that its really not a new discussion, per se, but in fact that same debate with a different title.

I did see this post by BigShadow and thought I'd comment. IMHO, its very well said! I think that his statement applies not only to BBT, but to all arts. Many times I've found myself thinking, "Hmm...this move from "X" art, it doesn't even look like it'll work." But I've had to take a step back, and realize that considering I don't have the training in "X" art, how can I really judge it, until someone who does understand it, can show me how it really works!

People tend to bash, put down, lose faith, or whatever else, in something because THEY are unable to make something work or THEY don't fully understand it, so they assume it must be garbage.

There is a BBT school not too far from where I live. I have had the chance to meet the instructor on more than one occasion and get a small taste as to what this art is all about. Speaking from the little that I was exposed to, I can attest that it is effective.

Mike

 

[Rook]

With all due respect... The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques. It is alive, it must be felt. In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet. Other people do, some sort of do.

Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train. I am sure your questions will be answered.

I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING. I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply. Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.

I don't understand how alot of things work yet. It may be that Hatsumi can indeed pull these things off against a resistant opponent - however I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that. What I do see doesn't tell me very much at all - but it does display some rather compliant training parteners, which to me reflects poorly. It may be that these things also work against non-compliant people - I just wish someone would post a video of that instead of the rather tired videos of people collapsing with a touch and being thrown halfway across the room with a slight toss.

There is a judo video, for instance, that greatly impressed me of Mifune. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3346298601525244862 This video starts out with his opponent resisting somewhat... later on towards the end he does randori against larger, stronger opponents and easily tosses them around. However, it is crystal clear even to a non-judoist that these people are not taking falls for him. That is not at all the impression that I got of Hatsumi.

 

[Don Roley]

however I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that.

See being the key word. Some things you have to experience to fully understand. There are a lot of good martial artists I have met with here in Japan and elsewhere that have reacted and flowed with my movements so well that to an outsider it looks like I am going with what they are trying to do. But I can tell you that I was trying my level best to nail them. They don't grunt, yell or anything like that. But when I do something, they react so well that it is like trying to push the wind.

Again, it is not just Hatsumi or the Bujinkan. There are a lot of little old men that smile a lot that have caused me to log some serious frequent flyer miles. But looking at what they do from the outside, I can't believe my eyes that they make it look so easy.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Reminds me a bit of Aikido. Another "looks cool but will it fly?" art IMO. I honestly dont know enough about any of it to make a judgement as to its effectiveness. Its just an impression that I get.

One thing that I have noticed is that from all the Ninja books I had from the 80's (Hayse's stuff) the impression I had then was that this BBT stuff seemed "different" more "brutal ninja combat" compared to how Im seeing it now (more Aikido'ish). Maybe its just the internet/video revolution that lets me see the stuff in motion. I dont know. Just my take dont anybody get too upset because it really doesnt mean much.

 

[Rook]

See being the key word. Some things you have to experience to fully understand. There are a lot of good martial artists I have met with here in Japan and elsewhere that have reacted and flowed with my movements so well that to an outsider it looks like I am going with what they are trying to do. But I can tell you that I was trying my level best to nail them. They don't grunt, yell or anything like that. But when I do something, they react so well that it is like trying to push the wind.

Again, it is not just Hatsumi or the Bujinkan. There are a lot of little old men that smile a lot that have caused me to log some serious frequent flyer miles. But looking at what they do from the outside, I can't believe my eyes that they make it look so easy.

Fair enough. It would be easier to see stuff, IMHO, if I saw something with full resistance instead of drills. As that apparently isn't happening, I'll have to wait until I have the skill to crosstrain seriously and find out for myself.

 

[Bigshadow]

One thing that I have noticed is that from all the Ninja books I had from the 80's (Hayse's stuff) the impression I had then was that this BBT stuff seemed "different" more "brutal ninja combat" compared to how Im seeing it now (more Aikido'ish).

That can be a touchy subject with many. Probably best for a different or new thread. However, again, that is a direct result of.... well... something different, I won't offer my opinion openly for. I would be happy to tell you my opinion privately though.

EDITED LATER: Let's just say, people have progressed.