Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Hanzou]

The posture of the person on the bottom shows he's clearly not trying. He's moving his arms, but that's it.

He's only trying when in positions. You don't see transitions that might leave vulnerabilities.

There were a few of those positions where he could have easily gone for a poke with his toes. (Toenails are often more neglected than fingernails.) Did he not think of that?

This video shows me nothing to prove your point.

Wait... You're going to try an eye poke when you're in an inferior position, and a grappler is in motion?

You do know why a grappler would be transitioning right? They're transitioning to make your currently bad situation even worse. Going for some sort of face attack while someone is moving into a dominant position is good way to get your hand and arm isolated. My instructor used to call it "a gift".

 

[JP3]

Wait... You're going to try an eye poke when you're in an inferior position, and a grappler is in motion?

You do know why a grappler would be transitioning right? They're transitioning to make your currently bad situation even worse. Going for some sort of face attack while someone is moving into a dominant position is good way to get your hand and arm isolated. My instructor used to call it "a gift".

I'd agree with your instructor. People having a "bad thing" done to them, when they lack experience, usually make their situation worse by doing wht they think will help... when very often it exposes them to the "next worse thing."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wait... You're going to try an eye poke when you're in an inferior position, and a grappler is in motion?

You do know why a grappler would be transitioning right? They're transitioning to make your currently bad situation even worse. Going for some sort of face attack while someone is moving into a dominant position is good way to get your hand and arm isolated. My instructor used to call it "a gift".

I have a personal experience in this.

Many years ago I got into a fight in Shang Yang train station in China (one guy tried to cut in line to buy ticket). I got him into a standing head lock. He tried to poke my eyes, I horse back kick his standing legs and took him down on the hard concrete floor. His eye poking gave me a chance to borrow his commitment force. 3 Chinese policeman came. I told those police that this guy tried to poke my eyes. The guy ran away. Those police let me go.

This is why I have always believed that when a clinch is done, striking is useless.

 

[Graywalker]

Really, you are never going to know, if what you practice, will work in the street or if it is of high caliber, unless you test it in the street.

But most will never do that.

I have a cousin, that spent his entire career in the martial arts, in competition. Full Contact, semi, point....and won first place most of the time, here in the U.S. and Mexico. He would always say that they are two completely different animals and he would not trust his skill in the street.

I told him, that was smart thinking and to keep his skill, where he perfected it. That is where he would be safe.

 

[skribs]

Wait... You're going to try an eye poke when you're in an inferior position, and a grappler is in motion?

You do know why a grappler would be transitioning right? They're transitioning to make your currently bad situation even worse. Going for some sort of face attack while someone is moving into a dominant position is good way to get your hand and arm isolated. My instructor used to call it "a gift".

That's because the only face attacks you're thinking of are a punch (which generates no power in that position) or a grappling attempt.

You're just trying to justify the gaps in the video.

 

[Hanzou]

That's because the only face attacks you're thinking of are a punch (which generates no power in that position) or a grappling attempt.

You're just trying to justify the gaps in the video.

No, I’m thinking of face attacks period, and I’m thinking of a transition point where you have a clear shot at the face while you’re laying on your back and a grappler is moving positions, and I honestly can’t think of one.

 

[drop bear]

You can argue 'when self defense doesn't work in class practice'. Hard to argue when it works in the real world.
That is where the repetition comes in, regardless of style or system.

Yeah. If you are actually claiming a system then the results have to be consistent.

So I can't go. Hey look guys i rolled a six. And think it supports a case for anything.

 

[drop bear]

Really, you are never going to know, if what you practice, will work in the street or if it is of high caliber, unless you test it in the street.

But most will never do that.

I have a cousin, that spent his entire career in the martial arts, in competition. Full Contact, semi, point....and won first place most of the time, here in the U.S. and Mexico. He would always say that they are two completely different animals and he would not trust his skill in the street.

I told him, that was smart thinking and to keep his skill, where he perfected it. That is where he would be safe.

No. Because you know where it does work.

Same as how you prove 2+2=4. It works because maths works.

 

[skribs]

No, I’m thinking of face attacks period, and I’m thinking of a transition point where you have a clear shot at the face while you’re laying on your back and a grappler is moving positions, and I honestly can’t think of one.

When I was in wrestling, there were plenty.

In fact, this video here suggests it for helping you to get out of the Muay Thai clinch:

Here's a video where the person is in side control, and has ample access to the person's face:

Here's a video of a person in half guard who has access to his opponent's head:

This guy in guard has easy access to his opponent's head.

Here's another side control video where there's easy access to the head:

This is what's hilarious about your post. You're doing the same thing that TMAs do. You're making unrealistic claims about your art. You might be able to completely prevent someone from touching your face. But if you're not expecting them to go for an eye gouge, you're probably just going to treat any hands on your face as a nuisance that you can just push off and re-gain your position. Once they've gotten your eye, it's too late. The damage is done.

Will they get your eye every time? Probably not. Are you going to be able to defend it? Maybe. Maybe not. BJJ is largely built around the idea that your opponent has no power while you work to gain position. If you have position, then you've isolated a limb. But if you haven't isolated it yet, then it's not going to take much to poke you in the eyes.

To think you will have complete control for every second of the fight is the same type of claim as a TMA grandmaster saying you won't be able to land a single punch because their blocks are too precise.

 

[drop bear]

The posture of the person on the bottom shows he's clearly not trying. He's moving his arms, but that's it.

He's only trying when in positions. You don't see transitions that might leave vulnerabilities.

There were a few of those positions where he could have easily gone for a poke with his toes. (Toenails are often more neglected than fingernails.) Did he not think of that?

This video shows me nothing to prove your point.

You need to secure the head for an eye gouge to work properly. Otherwise it is irritating but not effective at getting a position change.

People used to eye gouge me all the time.

The problem is that if you do eye gouge from the bottom and you are not clued on is you can extend your arm, it gets crossed across the body and you wind up in a gift wrap. With nowhere to go.

There are a whole bunch of factors you need to know that are a lot more important than learning the eye gouge.

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah. If you are actually claiming a system then the results have to be consistent.

So I can't go. Hey look guys i rolled a six. And think it supports a case for anything.

Yes, if the die is loaded the way that one appeared to be which is the case when someone is adequately trained.
Surely, you agree the odds for success in a confrontation go up exponentially with self defense or MMA training.
Of course, you will have to take your bias out of that equation.

 

[jobo]

Yes, if the die is loaded the way that one appeared to be which is the case when someone is adequately trained.
Surely, you agree the odds for success in a confrontation go up exponentially with self defense or MMA training.
Of course, you will have to take your bias out of that equation.

of course he isnt going to agree that,

it is extremely difficult to measure with both of those, to reach any concrete conclusion

though he always concludes with out any measure that mma has that effect, and also with no measure concludes self defence training can not. not does not, but that its so intrinsically flawed that it CAN not

ignoring that not all self defence training is the same, he will post some clearly bogus training and use that to conclude its all useless

he just has a script

 

[Hanzou]

When I was in wrestling, there were plenty.

Wrestling isn't Bjj.

In fact, this video here suggests it for helping you to get out of the Muay Thai clinch:

I'm not aware of Bjjers using the Muay Thai clinch for takedowns.

Here's a video where the person is in side control, and has ample access to the person's face:

Yeah, that video shows exactly why you shouldn't stick your arm out while someone has you side control.

Here's a video of a person in half guard who has access to his opponent's head:

And that guy is in half guard, which is why the guy on top is hugging the trunk. He's doing that because Half Guard is preventing him from advancing to a dominant position. I would say that anyone pulling off an effective Half Guard against a trained grappler is someone who has a decent amount of Bjj experience. Further, if you're in Half Guard you'd be a clown to try to go for an eye poke instead of doing what he did in that video (i.e. pushing the head and then going for an underhook, which is the bread and butter of half guard).

This guy in guard has easy access to his opponent's head.

Yes, because the Guard is a dominant position. You can eye poke in a dominant position.

Here's another side control video where there's easy access to the head:

And see above video where you really shouldn't be going for eye pokes while in side control. The guy on top has simply too many options to punish you.

This is what's hilarious about your post. You're doing the same thing that TMAs do. You're making unrealistic claims about your art. You might be able to completely prevent someone from touching your face. But if you're not expecting them to go for an eye gouge, you're probably just going to treat any hands on your face as a nuisance that you can just push off and re-gain your position. Once they've gotten your eye, it's too late. The damage is done.

Again, if someone is touching my face in a dominant position, their arm is going to get isolated and they're going to get joint locked. Consider what you're arguing here; You're saying that someone in a dominant position is going to allow someone to repeatedly touch their face and do absolutely nothing about it. That's absolutely silly.

Will they get your eye every time? Probably not. Are you going to be able to defend it? Maybe. Maybe not. BJJ is largely built around the idea that your opponent has no power while you work to gain position. If you have position, then you've isolated a limb. But if you haven't isolated it yet, then it's not going to take much to poke you in the eyes.

To think you will have complete control for every second of the fight is the same type of claim as a TMA grandmaster saying you won't be able to land a single punch because their blocks are too precise.

No one is saying there's zero chance for someone to get their eye poked, I'm saying that the idea that this is some sort of sound strategy against a grappler (especially if you don't have grappling experience) is nonsense. Even if you get their eye, you're still in an inferior position, and you've escalated the violence. So yeah you poked them in the eye, now they can pound your face into hamburger meat, snap your limbs, or strangle you to death. Congratulations!

 

[jobo]

Wrestling isn't Bjj.



I'm not aware of Bjjers using the Muay Thai clinch for takedowns.



Yeah, that video shows exactly why you shouldn't stick your arm out while someone has you side control.



And that guy is in half guard, which is why the guy on top is hugging the trunk. He's doing that because Half Guard is preventing him from advancing to a dominant position. I would say that anyone pulling off an effective Half Guard against a trained grappler is someone who has a decent amount of Bjj experience. Further, if you're in Half Guard you'd be a clown to try to go for an eye poke instead of doing what he did in that video (i.e. pushing the head and then going for an underhook, which is the bread and butter of half guard).



Yes, because the Guard is a dominant position. You can eye poke in a dominant position.



And see above video where you really shouldn't be going for eye pokes while in side control. The guy on top has simply too many options to punish you.



Again, if someone is touching my face in a dominant position, their arm is going to get isolated and they're going to get joint locked. Consider what you're arguing here; You're saying that someone in a dominant position is going to allow someone to repeatedly touch their face and do absolutely nothing about it. That's absolutely silly.



No one is saying there's zero chance for someone to get their eye poked, I'm saying that the idea that this is some sort of sound strategy against a grappler (especially if you don't have grappling experience) is nonsense. Even if you get their eye, you're still in an inferior position, and you've escalated the violence. So yeah you poked them in the eye, now they can pound your face into hamburger meat or strangle you to death. Congratulations!

im not sure you actually have much exsperiance of fighting outside of a gym enviroment

you certainly dont know the dymmnamic of a brawl,

if you have any sort of control of events at all, you dont let people close enough to bite or poke you in the eye

the fact that you subsequently beat them to a pulp, is little compensation for having your ear or nose bitten off or being blind in one eye.

i mean really who won that fight?

 

[Hanzou]

im not sure you actually have much exsperiance of fighting outside of a gym enviroment

you certainly dont know the dymmnamic of a brawl,

if you have any sort of control of events at all, you dont let people close enough to bite or poke you in the eye

the fact that you subsequently beat them to a pulp, is little compendation for having your ear or nose bitten off or beibg blind in one eye.

i mean really who won that fight?

Except which is the more likely scenario? You being able to poke someone's eye out the first time while laying on your back with someone on top of you, or getting your brains bashed in by someone on top of you punching you in the face repeatedly? Again, we're assuming that as soon as you reach out and touch a grappler's face while they're on top of you, they're not going to react to it at all and let you gouge out their eyes. It's the typical TMA delusion. Being on the bottom of side control is the best opportunity for an eye gouge, and I seriously wouldn't recommend doing it from that position.

 

[jobo]

Except which is the more likely scenario? You being able to poke someone's eye out the first time while laying on your back with someone on top of you, or getting your brains bashed in by someone on top of you punching you in the face repeatedly? Again, we're assuming that as soon as you reach out and touch a grappler's face while they're on top of you, they're not going to react to it at all and let you gouge out their eyes. It's the typical TMA delusion. Being on the bottom of side control is the best opportunity for an eye gouge, and I seriously wouldn't recommend doing it from that position.

how many goes do they need to cause serious eye damage, ?

iif you let a hand on your face at all your in serious danger,, the eyes are easy to find they are just above the nose and they have two to aim at,

your point was if they guaige your eyes you punish them, that rather to late

its not a tma poibt of view, it hard exsperiance of peopke who will think nothing of leavibg youu with long standing damage, if you give them the slightest opertunity to do so
if youve not got control of both hands, youve not got control

 

[skribs]

Wrestling isn't Bjj.



I'm not aware of Bjjers using the Muay Thai clinch for takedowns.



Yeah, that video shows exactly why you shouldn't stick your arm out while someone has you side control.



And that guy is in half guard, which is why the guy on top is hugging the trunk. He's doing that because Half Guard is preventing him from advancing to a dominant position. I would say that anyone pulling off an effective Half Guard against a trained grappler is someone who has a decent amount of Bjj experience. Further, if you're in Half Guard you'd be a clown to try to go for an eye poke instead of doing what he did in that video (i.e. pushing the head and then going for an underhook, which is the bread and butter of half guard).



Yes, because the Guard is a dominant position. You can eye poke in a dominant position.



And see above video where you really shouldn't be going for eye pokes while in side control. The guy on top has simply too many options to punish you.



Again, if someone is touching my face in a dominant position, their arm is going to get isolated and they're going to get joint locked. Consider what you're arguing here; You're saying that someone in a dominant position is going to allow someone to repeatedly touch their face and do absolutely nothing about it. That's absolutely silly.



No one is saying there's zero chance for someone to get their eye poked, I'm saying that the idea that this is some sort of sound strategy against a grappler (especially if you don't have grappling experience) is nonsense. Even if you get their eye, you're still in an inferior position, and you've escalated the violence. So yeah you poked them in the eye, now they can pound your face into hamburger meat, snap your limbs, or strangle you to death. Congratulations!

Those are grappling, even if they aren't BJJ.

Will you always execute those options before the damage is done to your eye? Will you retain composure after damage is done to your eye? Is that trait true of all BJJ fighters?

Yes, you can punish someone for touching your face. But will you have the wherewithal to do so after getting poked?

 

[Hanzou]

how many goes do they need to cause serious eye damage, ?

So they lose their eye and you lose your higher brain functions. Seems like a fair trade.

iif you let a hand on your face at all your in serious danger,, the eyes are easy to find they are just above the nose and they have two to aim at,

Yes, that's why no one is going to LET you put your hands on their face and not react. Further. the eyes are not easy to find while you're in an inferior position.

your point was if they guaige your eyes you punish them, that rather to late

My point is that even if you accomplish your mission of gouging their eye, you're still in an inferior position, and you've escalated the violence without making yourself safer.

its not a tma poibt of view, it hard exsperiance of peopke who will think nothing of leavibg youu with long standing damage, if you give them the slightest opertunity to do so
if youve not got control of both hands, youve not got control

Again, what's worse? Losing an eye so you're walking around with an eye patch, or getting killed from your head consistently smacking into the concrete? It should also be noted that you could completely miss the gouge, but the attempt alone has the potential to escalate the violence.

 

[jobo]

So they lose their eye and you lose your higher brain functions. Seems like a fair trade.



Yes, that's why no one is going to LET you put your hands on their face and not react. Further. the eyes are not easy to find while you're in an inferior position.



My point is that even if you accomplish your mission of gouging their eye, you're still in an inferior position, and you've escalated the violence without making yourself safer.



Again, what's worse? Losing an eye so you're walking around with an eye patch, or getting killed from your head consistently smacking into the concrete? It should also be noted that you could completely miss the gouge, but the attempt alone has the potential to escalate the violence.

your not grasping the gravity of the topic, were are not taking about an eye gauge, we talkibg about someone sticking their finger right in yoyr eye, in a delibrate attempt to blind you

you may go on to win that fight, but you flipping blind in one eye ,

i dont underatand hows that difficult to understand, that any techneque that leaves that as even a romote possibility is very suspect

 

[Hanzou]

Those are grappling, even if they aren't BJJ.

Not all forms of grappling have joint locks or strangles from dominant position.

Will you always execute those options before the damage is done to your eye? Will you retain composure after damage is done to your eye? Is that trait true of all BJJ fighters?

Just from personal experience, if I'm in side control my goal is to either advance my position or isolate your near arm for a submission. If you're reaching for an eye gouge, you're purposely giving me your near arm. Like I said, "a gift".

Yes, you can punish someone for touching your face. But will you have the wherewithal to do so after getting poked?

Like I said, poking someone in the eye is an easy way to escalate the violence of the encounter. Like Bas Ruten said; You poke my eye, I snap your neck. You're taking a big risk for potential little reward, because even if you blind someone, that's not a guarantee that they're going to release their hold on you.