Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Hanzou]

I have a different opinion on this. If you have some actual skill in grappling... as in, you (as an individual) have developed some reliable, applied expertise in grappling... you can do some experiments to layer in additional elements. This idea that BJJ guys can't train knife defense is stupid, and yet we get this straw man all the time. "BJJ/MMA/Wrestlers say all the time that they are impervious to being stabbed because their abs are so rock hard." Okay, maybe not exactly that, but just as ridiculous.

@Tony Dismukes has shared some really interesting experiments that he's done over the years, and there is real value in that. It's useful because it's layered onto actual skill. He has the expertise to evaluate his skills. Or said the other way, a person who lacks grappling expertise is in no position to evaluate knife defense.

I can see the logic behind that, considering that an experienced grappler would have knowledge of controlling the body.

I do think that people whip out the knife thing as a gotcha against the grapplers. It's like "Haha but what if I have a knife? Take that Jiujitsu!" Seemingly ignoring that they just admitted that they need a concealed deadly weapon to have a chance against your martial art.

That's like one of the highest compliments a MA could receive.

 

[Steve]

I can see the logic behind that, considering that an experienced grappler would have knowledge of controlling the body.

I do think that people whip out the knife thing as a gotcha against the grapplers. It's like "Haha but what if I have a knife? Take that Jiujitsu!" Seemingly ignoring that they just admitted that they need a concealed deadly weapon to have a chance against your martial art.

That's like one of the highest compliments a MA could receive.

Totally.

I posted the picture below in another thread. If you don't apply the skills, you just simply do not have the expertise to deconstruct the skill set, evaluate the skills, or apply the skills reliably within a different context. This is just fundamentally how people build expertise. So, if you are not professionally violent, and you don't compete, you just simply don't have a venue to apply your skills. And if you don't apply your skills, what you are becoming an expert in is training. Your fighting skills remain theoretical.

The videos you've posted of grappling being shoehorned into other styles... the reason that happens is because people lack the foundational skill to analyze and evaluate the techniques. It sounds or looks good to them and to their students, but to anyone with even a modest degree of experience, it looks silly and ridiculous. When you consider Bloom's taxonomy and how people build skill, it's obvious why that occurs.

Edit: Just to be clear, this is a universally applicable standard. The Gracies, back in the day, had some pretty crappy striking. They didn't feel like they needed it, and maybe for a while that was true. But once some experienced strikers, with actual striking skills, began also developing real grappling skills, the landscape changed.

 

[jobo]

No, it is exactly because they are delusional and they don't recognize draw backs.

Do you think someone like George Dillman (who made people believe he could shoot spirit balls of ki from his hands and knock someone out from across the room) would be taken seriously in a MMA gym? He was taken quite seriously in a karate dojo. When you have that level of delusion, a person thinking that they can take an amateur or professional fighter with an eye poke is just a few dozen steps down the delusion ladder.

that just comes across as you thinkibg any one with a different life view than you must be delusional, which is adiagnosable psychiatric condition.

that or youve carried out some extensive research and have the facts at your finger tips to make that claim

which is it?

 

[Steve]

that just comes across as you thinkibg any one with a different life view than you must be delusional, which is adiagnosable psychiatric condition.

that or youve carried out some extensive research and have the facts at your finger tips to make that claim

which is it?

if they get poked in the eye, they won't have much of a life view.

 

[Hanzou]

that just comes across as you thinkibg any one with a different life view than you must be delusional, which is adiagnosable psychiatric condition.

that or youve carried out some extensive research and have the facts at your finger tips to make that claim

which is it?

If you believe that ki is a force that you can project across the room ala Street Fighter, or that eye poking is a sufficient form of anti-grappling, yes you are delusional. As I said, it's just different levels of delusion. It isn't a "different life view", it's common sense versus ignorance.

For example, do you think that grappling would become as essential as it has in NHB/professional fighting if all you had to do was eye poke your way out of a precarious hold?
And yes, eye poking was legal in some forms of NHB fighting.

As Bas Ruten once said; If you poke my eye, I'll snap your neck.

 

[jobo]

If you believe that ki is a force that you can project across the room ala Street Fighter, or that eye poking is a sufficient form of anti-grappling, yes you are delusional. As I said, it's just different levels of delusion. It isn't a "different life view", it's common sense versus ignorance.

For example, do you think that grappling would become as essential as it has in NHB/professional fighting if all you had to do was eye poke your way out of a precarious hold?
And yes, eye poking was legal in some forms of NHB fighting.

As Bas Ruten once said; If you poke my eye, I'll snap your neck.

but i dont and nether does any of of the hobby ma on here, but its us your attacking with a totally bogus strawman argument about chi balls

lets get down to fact, who exactly beklieves this and what % of the tma communityy do they represent, youve accused us all of delusion,, you better be able to back ut up with facts ?

you dont kbow do you,? your whole point is silly

 

[Hanzou]

but i dont and nether does any of of the hobby ma on here, but its us your attacking with a totally bogus strawman argument about chi balls

Just to make sure we're on the same page; I never said that anyone on here believes in Chi balls (though there have been people on this forum in the past who believe in no-touch ki stuff, and even defended Dillman's nonsense), I said that that level of delusion tends to occur in TMAs more so than in MMA. Further, I said that believing you can snuff out martial skill with "dirty tricks" is just another level of the same kind of delusion. Unfortunately, many believe that one.

The point is that both are a type of delusion that unfortunately tend to occur in TMAs.

lets get down to fact, who exactly beklieves this and what % of the tma communityy do they represent, youve accused us all of delusion,, you better be able to back ut up with facts ?

you dont kbow do you,? your whole point is silly

I don't know the exact percentage, nor do I care to know. My point is that TMA allows that sort of stuff to germinate and grow because of their lack of checks on the skill level of their exponents.

 

[jobo]

Just to make sure we're on the same page; I never said that anyone on here believes in Chi balls (though there have been people on this forum in the past who believe in no-touch ki stuff, and even defended Dillman's nonsense), I said that that level of delusion tends to occur in TMAs more so than in MMA. Further, I said that believing you can snuff out martial skill with "dirty tricks" is just another level of the same kind of delusion. Unfortunately, many believe that one.

The point is that both are a type of delusion that unfortunately tend to occur in TMAs.



I don't know the exact percentage, nor do I care to know. My point is that TMA allows that sort of stuff to germinate and grow because of their lack of checks on the skill level of their exponents.

you were usibg it as a club to beat us with, i saw some mma guy the other night explainibg how the earth was flat and gravity doesnt exist, im not using that to sugest that all mma profesionals are brain dead morons, or this means that delusion must run through out the profesional mma rank, that would just be dishonest and thats what your doing.

so with we rule out the complete idiots,what have you got that shows tmaers are more subject to delusion than the general poulation?

 

[Hanzou]

@Hanzou I'm on mobile, so I'm having trouble selecting specific parts to quote, so bear with me.

Your post kind of confirms my point.

1. I do agree that it goes both ways. But you're talking for one side, so I have to speak for the other to keep the conversation balanced.
2. Are those the only options, that I'm being strangled or punched? I could ve in the clinch, effectively pinned as far as a wrestler is concerned, but able to reach your face. A hand on the face isn't as big of a deal if you're not allowed to go for the eyes.
3. Why can't you continue to train knife defense so your memory is as good as with your other martial arts?
4. Competitors know when to let up...which could be dangerous in a fight. Look at the time BJ Penn got KO'd in a drunken fight, then woke up and tackled the guy from behind. Should you respect the tap or put an attacker to sleep?

Your post just confirms what I said about the attitude I hear a lot from sport folk. Justifications and excuses for why training for anything other than sport is either a waste of time or ineffective.

Yes, there are similar complaints from TMAs regarding sparring, pressure testing, competition, and crosstraining. That's an equally bad position to have.

1. That's fair, I suppose. I don't know why you feel the need to take the contrarian view, but okay.

2. The other option would be to find an actual counter or escape. Attempting to go for an eye poke in an inferior position is good way to get punished. Also blinding a grappler is no guarantee that they're going to let up. I personally know a lot of guys who grapple with their eyes closed for example. You poking their eyes escalates the violence and you're still in a bad situation. Poking a striker in the eye would just piss them off, and I'm willing to bet that quite a few fighters with ring experience have had their eyes poked before in practice.

3. Because like I said, the only real knife defense I believe is you actually practicing with a live blade and cutting yourself up. I think I'll take my chances.

4. We know when to let up, and we know when to not let up. The thing is that if you're in some stupid drunken brawl with someone outside a bar, you can't snap limbs or choke people out at will, because there could be legal consquences. If someone is trying to murder you and your family and you have them in a chokehold, there's zero chance that you're going to let up on them.

I'm sorry you think that my argument is that training for anything other than sport is a waste of time. That actually isn't my point at all.

 

[skribs]

1. That's fair, I suppose. I don't know why you feel the need to take the contrarian view, but okay.

2. The other option would be to find an actual counter or escape. Attempting to go for an eye poke in an inferior position is good way to get punished. Also blinding a grappler is no guarantee that they're going to let up. I personally know a lot of guys who grapple with their eyes closed for example. You poking their eyes escalates the violence and you're still in a bad situation. Poking a striker in the eye would just piss them off, and I'm willing to bet that quite a few fighters with ring experience have had their eyes poked before in practice.

3. Because like I said, the only real knife defense I believe is you actually practicing with a live blade and cutting yourself up. I think I'll take my chances.

4. We know when to let up, and we know when to not let up. The thing is that if you're in some stupid drunken brawl with someone outside a bar, you can't snap limbs or choke people out at will, because there could be legal consquences. If someone is trying to murder you and your family and you have them in a chokehold, there's zero chance that you're going to let up on them.

I'm sorry you think that my argument is that training for anything other than sport is a waste of time. That actually isn't my point at all.

Excuses as to why other strategies are inferior or a waste of time. You're just proving my point about the narrow mindedness of the typical combat sport fighter.

 

[Hanzou]

you were usibg it as a club to beat us with, i saw some mma guy the other night explainibg how the earth was flat and gravity doesnt exist, im not using that to sugest that all mma profesionals are brain dead morons, or this means that delusion must run through out the profesional mma rank, that would just be dishonest and thats what your doing.

That's quite a false equivalency you got going there. Believing the Earth is flat doesn't really pertain to martial arts.

Believing that you can escape a grappling hold by biting someone in the junk because your sensei supposedly pulled it from an unrelated move in your kata/form does pertain to martial arts, and it's quite common.

so with we rule out the complete idiots,what have you got that shows tmaers are more subject to delusion than the general poulation?

I've already addressed that with the Dillman question. I suppose you missed it so I'll ask again;

Do you think someone like Dillman could thrive in the MMA community? Again, keep in mind, he thrived within the TMA community and had a fairly large following.

 

[jobo]

1. That's fair, I suppose. I don't know why you feel the need to take the contrarian view, but okay.

2. The other option would be to find an actual counter or escape. Attempting to go for an eye poke in an inferior position is good way to get punished. Also blinding a grappler is no guarantee that they're going to let up. I personally know a lot of guys who grapple with their eyes closed for example. You poking their eyes escalates the violence and you're still in a bad situation. Poking a striker in the eye would just piss them off, and I'm willing to bet that quite a few fighters with ring experience have had their eyes poked before in practice.

3. Because like I said, the only real knife defense I believe is you actually practicing with a live blade and cutting yourself up. I think I'll take my chances.

4. We know when to let up, and we know when to not let up. The thing is that if you're in some stupid drunken brawl with someone outside a bar, you can't snap limbs or choke people out at will, because there could be legal consquences. If someone is trying to murder you and your family and you have them in a chokehold, there's zero chance that you're going to let up on them.

I'm sorry you think that my argument is that training for anything other than sport is a waste of time. That actually isn't my point at all.

this always seem to hinge on you beibg in an out of ring encoubter with a ring fighter, thats not impossible but unlikely in my exsperiance,


eye pokes work, they do, even better if you get both eyes together, fighting a blind man is substantial easier than one with 20 20 vision, they dont even know you left

 

[Hanzou]

Excuses as to why other strategies are inferior or a waste of time. You're just proving my point about the narrow mindedness of the typical combat sport fighter.

Yes, attempting to poke out someone's eyes to get out of a hold is vastly inferior to actually learning how to escape a hold and actually putting yourself in a position to counter.

Crazy right?

 

[Hanzou]

this always seem to hinge on you beibg in an out of ring encoubter with a ring fighter, thats not impossible but unlikely in my exsperiance,

Not really. There's plenty of young men who have taken Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, MMA, and other ring sports who are not professional fighters, but have a great deal of ring time. Some places actually have these sports as scholastic options for athletes in secondary school and college.

So no, you don't have to be Conor McGregor to have experienced getting your eyes poked in a ring.

 

[jobo]

That's quite a false equivalency you got going there. Believing the Earth is flat doesn't really pertain to martial arts.

Believing that you can escape a grappling hold by biting someone in the junk because your sensei supposedly pulled it from an unrelated move in your kata/form does pertain to martial arts, and it's quite common.



I've already addressed that with the Dillman question. I suppose you missed it so I'll ask again;

Do you think someone like Dillman could thrive in the MMA community? Again, keep in mind, he thrived within the TMA community and had a fairly large following.

your still flooggibg the same dead chi ball horse. its false equivency in just the same way as the flat earth is, and lets face it very few pro mmaers look like they would have earnt a good honest living if they hadent decided to get roid up and punch people for a living, it would be intrestibg to know what the mean iq is, it seems odd to sugest they have a greater intellectual capacity than tmaers, some of whom are extremly well qualified

i know nothibg about Dillon, nothing at all, never heard of him till you decided to call me dulusion for not having the same objectives as you

why dont you tell me in what way he prospered in the tma community? and how that in any way relates to me

 

[Buka]

I don't doubt it, Buka, but you brought to mind a question. Is the training today the same as it was 20 years ago? 40? I mean, I know it was different in BJJ... even from the early 2000s to now.

I don't know, Steve, I think every era, every place, every group of people train a little differently. There's so many factors involved I don't know how to list them all. And like I've said before, everything was kind of handed to me on a silver platter. I was fortunate enough to be at the right places at the right times with the right people. And no matter how I might have screwed that up through being a damn fool, it just kept happening.

I had a conversation with an old friend last week and we got around to a discussion about training. He brought up a point I hadn't thought of before. He said, "Back in the eighties we didn't have the net, the UFC on TV all the time, we didn't have YouTube, we didn't have all these things to ease our Jonses about fighting, about fight sports, fight training. We had to create those environments ourselves. Actual brick and mortar places that had high energy, crazy training fools that wanted to do advanced Martial Arts every single day."

So....I dunno', maybe he's on to something there.

 

[jobo]

Not really. There's plenty of young men who have taken Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, MMA, and other ring sports who are not professional fighters, but have a great deal of ring time. Some places actually have these sports as scholastic options for athletes in secondary school and college.

So no, you don't have to be Conor McGregor to have experienced getting your eyes poked in a ring.

plenty as what % of the population?
ive never met any one who does mt till a few weeks back, the odss of being randomly attacked by one seem slight

 

[Steve]

I think this thread is taking a turn. We've entered the stage of the thread where some folks start just writing fan fiction.

 

[Hanzou]

your still flooggibg the same dead chi ball horse. its false equivency in just the same way as the flat earth is, and lets face it very few pro mmaers look like they would have earnt a good honest living if they hadent decided to get roid up and punch people for a living, it would be intrestibg to know what the mean iq i it seems odd to sugest they have a greater intellectual capacity than tmaers, some of whom are exremtemly well qualified

i know nothibg about Dillon, nothing at all, never heard of him till you decided to call me dulusion for not having the same objectives as you

why dont you tell me in what way he prospered in the tma community?

The belief in flat earth has nothing to do with martial arts.

Chi, No touch KOs, No touch throws, Ki Balls, etc. are an occasional occurrence in various traditional martial arts.

So again, false equivalence.

plenty as what % of the population?
ive never met any one who does mt till a few weeks back, the odss of being randomly attacked by one seem slight

Why would the exact percentage be relevant? The point is that there are plenty of young men who take up ring sports and never go pro. Those individuals more than likely have experience getting their eyes poked.

Also the person I was responding to was specifically talking about fighting against a trained sports fighter, not a rapist in a dark alley.

 

[jobo]

The belief in flat earth has nothing to do with martial arts.

Chi, No touch KOs, No touch throws, Ki Balls, etc. are an occasional occurrence in various traditional martial arts.

So again, false equivalnce.

it has to do with cognative abilities they both do , stupid is stupid

are you saying a belief in chi balls is worse that flat earth, clearly if he belives that there is no bottom on what stupidity he will belive, its possibly beibg kicked in the head that impaired him, so yes related to ma

tell me about dillion, how he prospered and how that relates to me