Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[O'Malley]

I think any art that is calibrated based on actual performance is going to be better. For most of us, who don't work in a niche field where we get to be professionally violent, competition is the only context for application available.

We have had debates/arguments/discussions ad nauseum about the subtle differences between competing and not competing make on the overall learning and performance of the people who train in a style. You raise many good points, and I agree completely.

But the proof is in how reliably people can apply their skills within and outside of the context for which they train. I believe if you took 400 people in a study where their practical skills are evaluated at regular, the results would speak for themselves, and it wouldn't even be close. To be clear, I'm talking about evaluating relative performance within the specific trained context of the art, and also tested outside of the context of the art. Performance and application will always bear more consistent, reliable results than a perpetual training cycle.

400 people, all about the same age, all with average fitness levels and health, train x4 days per week for 2 hours each day:

• Group 1: 100 trained 100 in any competitive style (e.g., muay thai, boxing, bjj, sambo, judo)
• Group 2: 100 in any non-competitive style (ninjutsu, aikido, krav maga)
• Group 3: 100 who trained in a performance based fitness program (crossfit, parkour, etc), and
• Group 4: 100 who don't train as a control group.

I think after a year, I think Groups 1 and 3 would be most capable of defending themselves in a fight and would perform pretty similarly. Group 2 would, I believe, be functionally the same as Group 4.

After 3 years, I think Group 1 pulls clearly ahead of Group 3. Groups 2 and 4 would still be indistinguishable.

After 5 years, the lines keep going. Group 1 at this point would begin to display actual expertise in the area. Group 3 would be very fit, but would have plateaued. The only question at 5 years that I would be interested in is whether Group 2 performs better than Group 4. That's a real question.

And, you know what? I think we all know that this is true. I mean, does anyone question that this is how it would go?

Just to make sure I understand your post correctly, are you saying that training without competition is equivalent to not training at all?

 

[jobo]

Just to make sure I understand your post correctly, are you saying that training without competition is equivalent to not training at all?

no i dont think thats his point at all

he seems to be saying training with out competition is equivalent, to training another sport entirely

my feeling is if it free running against some of the sd training ive seen the sd trainibg will come off second best

 

[Steve]

Just to make sure I understand your post correctly, are you saying that training without competition is equivalent to not training at all?

Not exactly. To be specific, I'm saying if you took 100 average people training in a non-competitive style and 100 average people who don't train at all:

• After 1 year, I would not expect to see a measurable difference in fighting ability.
• After 3 years, I would not expect to see much, if any difference in fighting ability.
• After 5 years, I'm very curious whether there would be any measurable difference in fighting ability.

To be clear, this is my hypothesis based on a career in the field of training and skill development, teaching folks to do all kinds of things that we actually want them to be able to do well. I'm 100% in favor of actually seeing a study like this done.

Also, another important distinction, I would definitely expect the person to become more proficient in the martial art they are studying. So, a guy who trains 3 or 5 years in ninjutsu will certainly be better at ninjutsu than someone who never trains. But would that translate to fighting ability? I don't expect that it would.

And lastly, I think the training does matter. So, better training will result in more reliable transfer of skill between practicing fighting skills and actually fighting. I just don't think excellent training will even come close to the applied fitness guys (parkour, crossfit, etc). Fighting performance would clearly be group 1 (competition), group 3 (functional fitness), then... given enough time and an excellent training program... maybe group 2 (non-competition) over group 4 (control)?

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on what you mean by "superior".

What is clear is that sports martial arts offer an excellent way to safely apply techniques. That's pretty much unquestionable. And some TMA schools lack just that.

That said, depending on your benchmark, the answer might change.

Would Khabib beat my instructors if he walked into my dojo? Yes.
Would he win if he were their age? Don't know.
Would he fare better than them if there were weapons and/or multiple opponents involved? Don't know.
I've met masters who could easily break baseball bats with a kick. Would those guys be able to hit Khabib with that? Don't know. Would Khabib get hurt if he got caught by that? Don't know, but don't want to try it myself.
Would a karate master be able to maim Khabib with an eye/throat/groin strike coming from a weird angle (= one not used in MMA because regular strikes don't do much damage from there)? Don't know.
I've been on the receiving end of a lua technique that consists in throwing someone from a single or double "nipple grip" (like literally grabbing your nipple area and using it as if gripping your gi). Besides hurting a lot, it's a position that may not naturally happen in grappling, especially no-gi/MMA. And it's pretty surprising. Would it be enough to surprise and beat Khabib? Don't know.

How about we factor in the effects of competition? Would a punch-drunk boxer be "superior" to a healthy tai chi guy? How about someone who got a back injury from bad ukemi in competition? Muhammad Ali was an exceptional fighter for a few years but got diagnosed with Parkinson's disease at only 42. Was he superior to the master who could throw me around with ease in his 60's, a week before dying from late-stage cancer?

How about cross-training? Even if you train purely under one "karate" instructor, he may train you in light of his former judo experience.

Obviously I'm talking about a competitor at their prime, not someone with a debilitating illness or disease.

Would someone being able to break a baseball bat with their kick even be able to hit Khabib? I doubt it. I can break a brick with a downward punch. Could I sock a professional boxer in the nose with enough force to break it? Maybe. Would that pro boxer allow me to do that before he knocked my head off? Nope.

Would someone be able to submit Khabib with a nipple twist? I doubt it. Would some random TMA guy be able to beat Khabib by doing dirty tricks on him? Yeah, I doubt that too.

Why? Because a professional fighter like Khabib is simply better at fighting because he's fighting all the time. Your argument here is like saying Bob from the office can hit a homerun in Softball, so he can hit a homerun if a major league pitcher throws a fastball at him. Is there a chance he could do it? Sure. Is he likely to do it? No.

Those can be acquired by TMA practitioners as well. And yeah some traditional arts have a wider technical palette than, say, boxing.

A wider technical palette doesn't necessarily translate into a better pool of techniques to utilize. For example, while Boxing has 5 techniques, its still considered one of the best striking MAs to practice. Meanwhile, there's plenty of TMAs that teach a lot of stuff, but teaches none of it very well.

The style vs style debate has too many variables to reach a definitive conclusion. Also I find the "TMA" vs "sports" dichotomy artificial.

Well to be fair, this really wasn't a style vs style debate, it was more along the lines of schools with a "full contact" competitive aspect tend to have an elite tier of exponents.

Beyond that, I think its fairly easy to reach a definitive conclusion. Again, we do see TMA exponents not fairing too well in exhibition fights against sport/competitive fighters. Again, the exact same thing happens in the MMA-based arts where you have the standard practitioners and the elite fighters. As I said before, a standard practitioner like myself would get eaten alive by an elite fighter in my MA. Why would a TMA practitioner who more than likely practices at the same level I do fare any better?

Also, sports MAists may have more possibilities to practice professionnally, especially at elite level and in popular sports. In aikido, for example, there's generally a dearth of professional practitioners.

So when you consider that situation, which art would have the better pool of practitioners? If people are just doing their thing with no objective standard, how do we know what's a "good" example of the art in question? For example, no one in the world of Bjj would say that the winner of ADCC champion is a bad grappler. If someone asks me who the best Bjj practitioners in the world are, I just look at the competitors in that event.

What could we use as such a standard in Aikido?

 

[Hanzou]

Also, another important distinction, I would definitely expect the person to become more proficient in the martial art they are studying. So, a guy who trains 3 or 5 years in ninjutsu will certainly be better at ninjutsu than someone who never trains. But would that translate to fighting ability? I don't expect that it would.

Everyone is mean to Ninjutsu......

 

[Steve]

Everyone is mean to Ninjutsu......

LOL. It's the ginger of martial arts...

But to say out loud, nothing wrong at all with training ninjutsu, if that's what you like. While you may be learning how to be a terrific ninja, I just don't think you're learning how to fight. And to ground this in the actual point, if you are in a situation where you must fight, your chances of successfully transferring your ninja skills to this new context is very low. You may end up being no more capable of yourself than someone who has never trained in a martial art.

 

[Steve]

Depends on what you mean by "superior".

What is clear is that sports martial arts offer an excellent way to safely apply techniques. That's pretty much unquestionable. And some TMA schools lack just that.

That said, depending on your benchmark, the answer might change.

Would Khabib beat my instructors if he walked into my dojo? Yes.
Would he win if he were their age? Don't know.
Would he fare better than them if there were weapons and/or multiple opponents involved? Don't know.
I've met masters who could easily break baseball bats with a kick. Would those guys be able to hit Khabib with that? Don't know. Would Khabib get hurt if he got caught by that? Don't know, but don't want to try it myself.
Would a karate master be able to maim Khabib with an eye/throat/groin strike coming from a weird angle (= one not used in MMA because regular strikes don't do much damage from there)? Don't know.
I've been on the receiving end of a lua technique that consists in throwing someone from a single or double "nipple grip" (like literally grabbing your nipple area and using it as if gripping your gi). Besides hurting a lot, it's a position that may not naturally happen in grappling, especially no-gi/MMA. And it's pretty surprising. Would it be enough to surprise and beat Khabib? Don't know.

How about we factor in the effects of competition? Would a punch-drunk boxer be "superior" to a healthy tai chi guy? How about someone who got a back injury from bad ukemi in competition? Muhammad Ali was an exceptional fighter for a few years but got diagnosed with Parkinson's disease at only 42. Was he superior to the master who could throw me around with ease in his 60's, a week before dying from late-stage cancer?

How about cross-training? Even if you train purely under one "karate" instructor, he may train you in light of his former judo experience.



Those can be acquired by TMA practitioners as well. And yeah some traditional arts have a wider technical palette than, say, boxing.

The style vs style debate has too many variables to reach a definitive conclusion. Also I find the "TMA" vs "sports" dichotomy artificial.

What I can agree on, though, is that sports MA typically emphasise applicability in a live situation and that competition encourages innovation and quality control. Those are very valuable elements for any martial artist who trains with "fighting" in mind.

Also, sports MAists may have more possibilities to practice professionnally, especially at elite level and in popular sports. In aikido, for example, there's generally a dearth of professional practitioners.

Edit: I realised that it might look as if I'm saying that TMA is superior to combat sports. It's not my opinion, cf. bold part.

Edit2: additions.

You make some good points, and as a thought exercise, we can consider how individual instructors or elite athletes would fare. The danger here, though, is to put undue focus on exceptional performance within the style. If we're evaluating a training modality, we might be able to glean some useful information by pitting the top echelon against each other.

If the goal is to really get a sense of how effective one modality is vs another (e.g., non-competitive vs competitive), we really need to look at the non-exceptional students. The white collar couch potatoes who start off unconsciously incompetent. Then we can evaluate how long it takes for them to be proficient. What's the ceiling for their skill development? How reliably and repeatable are the results (in other words, how much is training vs individual aptitude?) Are they building practical and reliable skills?

Again, the proof is in the pudding. Take a bunch of out of shape computer programmers. Put half in a good "sport" school and half in a good "tma" school, and the results would speak for themselves. I don't think this is even a question, really. I expect we can all agree that after any given amount of time, the sport students will be more skilled.

 

[Hanzou]

LOL. It's the ginger of martial arts...

But to say out loud, nothing wrong at all with training ninjutsu, if that's what you like. While you may be learning how to be a terrific ninja, I just don't think you're learning how to fight. And to ground this in the actual point, if you are in a situation where you must fight, your chances of successfully transferring your ninja skills to this new context is very low. You may end up being no more capable of yourself than someone who has never trained in a martial art.

Well to be fair, there are Ninjutsu schools incorporating Bjj now and claiming that it is the ancient Earth elemental style from one of their katas. So I suppose there's some hope there....

 

[Buka]

"Pushing this up a notch, if Jon Jones or Khabib walked into your dojo, could your instructor beat them in a fight? Bringing this down a notch would your traditional karate instructor be able to stand toe to toe against an amateur boxer?"

I've never had a traditional Karate instructor, so I probably should exclude myself from the question. But that's no fun, especially on a Monday.

With Khabib or Jones, yeah, I think a couple of my teachers would do alright. (but then, I've had instructors on their level.) But I do know one thing, there would be no shortage of students in the dojo willing to fight with them. Everyone loved fighting and training with people of their incredible skill. How could you not? I mean, duh.

Amateur boxer - in what, boxing? Some of the guys would handle them, some might not. But that would be in boxing only. In free fighting the amateur boxer would either be looking for help - or for the door.

 

[drop bear]

easily break a base ball bat with their kick,??? now that id like to see

 

[jobo]

depends on the quality of the timber, and he is aiming at the thin bit and it looks suspious thin

 

[drop bear]

depends on the quality of the timber, and he is aiming at the thin bit and it looks suspious thin

Reject reality and insert your own.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also, another important distinction, I would definitely expect the person to become more proficient in the martial art they are studying. So, a guy who trains 3 or 5 years in ninjutsu will certainly be better at ninjutsu than someone who never trains. But would that translate to fighting ability? I don't expect that it would.

I can’t pretend to have the data that a large scale study would provide, but I can offer my personal experience.

I trained “ninjutsu” (Bujinkan) for about 8 years before moving on to arts like BJJ and Muay Thai and I am very sure that I was a better fighter as a result of that training than I would have been if I had sat on my butt and not done any training during that time. (And yes, I did get into a few scuffles which served to calibrate where my abilities were at.)

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent that time training in a more functional system? Certainly not.

Was I as good a fighter as I thought I was before I had those various scuffles as reality checks? Nope.

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent those years on strength training and playing some non-martial sport to develop my overall athleticism instead of training ninjutsu? Maybe, maybe not. Knowing my personal interests and motivation, I don’t know if any non-martial pursuit would have captured my interest well enough to drive me to put in the work.

Bear in mind that I started out as an extremely unathletic, uncoordinated, scrawny, physically timid bookworm who was completely out of touch with my own body and couldn’t hold my own in a pillow fight. My training in the Bujinkan greatly increased my balance, coordination, body awareness and control, got me used to a greater degree of physical contact than I was used to, increased my pain tolerance, got me more psychologically conditioned to seeing punches and kicks coming at me, taught me some valid tactical concepts and principles, and also a few workable techniques.

It’s true that someone who grew up playing contact sports and getting into fights might have gotten all those benefits to a greater degree than I did from my Bujinkan training, but I’m not comparing myself to them. I’m comparing myself after my training to myself before my training.

In addition, I think my Bujinkan experience was helpful as I moved on to other arts - the curriculum does include some widely applicable concepts, even if the training methods are ... suboptimal.

 

[jobo]

Reject reality and insert your own.

ive spent quite a lot of time considering wood technology, and there is as much differance between varius timber as there is between, cardboard and wrought iron,

 

[Steve]

"Pushing this up a notch, if Jon Jones or Khabib walked into your dojo, could your instructor beat them in a fight? Bringing this down a notch would your traditional karate instructor be able to stand toe to toe against an amateur boxer?"

I've never had a traditional Karate instructor, so I probably should exclude myself from the question. But that's no fun, especially on a Monday.

With Khabib or Jones, yeah, I think a couple of my teachers would do alright. (but then, I've had instructors on their level.) But I do know one thing, there would be no shortage of students in the dojo willing to fight with them. Everyone loved fighting and training with people of their incredible skill. How could you not? I mean, duh.

Amateur boxer - in what, boxing? Some of the guys would handle them, some might not. But that would be in boxing only. In free fighting the amateur boxer would either be looking for help - or for the door.

I don't doubt it, Buka, but you brought to mind a question. Is the training today the same as it was 20 years ago? 40? I mean, I know it was different in BJJ... even from the early 2000s to now.

I can’t pretend to have the data that a large scale study would provide, but I can offer my personal experience.

I trained “ninjutsu” (Bujinkan) for about 8 years before moving on to arts like BJJ and Muay Thai and I am very sure that I was a better fighter as a result of that training than I would have been if I had sat on my butt and not done any training during that time. (And yes, I did get into a few scuffles which served to calibrate where my abilities were at.)

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent that time training in a more functional system? Certainly not.

Was I as good a fighter as I thought I was before I had those various scuffles as reality checks? Nope.

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent those years on strength training and playing some non-martial sport to develop my overall athleticism instead of training ninjutsu? Maybe, maybe not. Knowing my personal interests and motivation, I don’t know if any non-martial pursuit would have captured my interest well enough to drive me to put in the work.

Bear in mind that I started out as an extremely unathletic, uncoordinated, scrawny, physically timid bookworm who was completely out of touch with my own body and couldn’t hold my own in a pillow fight. My training in the Bujinkan greatly increased my balance, coordination, body awareness and control, got me used to a greater degree of physical contact than I was used to, increased my pain tolerance, got me more psychologically conditioned to seeing punches and kicks coming at me, taught me some valid tactical concepts and principles, and also a few workable techniques.

It’s true that someone who grew up playing contact sports and getting into fights might have gotten all those benefits to a greater degree than I did from my Bujinkan training, but I’m not comparing myself to them. I’m comparing myself after my training to myself before my training.

In addition, I think my Bujinkan experience was helpful as I moved on to other arts - the curriculum does include some widely applicable concepts, even if the training methods are ... suboptimal.

This is very helpful, and I appreciate your comments. You have a unique perspective having trained for so long in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and then into other arts and training models.

Are you interested in sponsoring my study? Just kidding, of course. I'm not qualified to do this, but this is one of two studies I would genuinely love to see done.

 

[Bee Brian]

This was a question asked in my other thread and I thought it warranted its own thread. There is a slight disdain for sports and competition among traditionalists within the martial arts. It even pops up in my style Brazilian Jiujitsu, despite the fact that what brought Bjj to prominence was sport and competition. There is a group of people within Bjj who dislike what competition has done to the art, and like to hammer in the idea that sport dilutes the self defense aspect of the art.

While there is some merit to that point, there is another inescapable fact; Competition and sport (particularly MMA) have kept Bjj "honest" in that it forces the style to never drift too far into having its own head up its ****. For example, after Bjj exploded on the scene via the early UFCs, numerous other grappling systems emerged to try to supplant it as the main grappling art of the emerging sport. At first, Bjj exponents (mainly the Gracies) pushed a sort of purity message and refused to embrace other grappling styles, saying that their system of grappling was superior to all others. However, after the Gracies got beat by grapplers who had cross-trained in Bjj, other Bjj schools embraced other grappling forms. Over two decades later, it would be hard to argue that Bjj isn't an overall better martial art than it was when it first exploded on the scene in the 1990s.

Beyond general MA improvement, it would be a bit silly to believe that your average MA hobbyist is a better martial artist than a professional fighter. Again, when I look into my own martial art, I look at guys like Ryan Gordon, Keenan Cornelius, JT Torres, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, etc. and recognize that they would absolutely destroy me. There are videos of competitive Bjj players who roll against entire schools and submit students in that school within a matter of minutes if not seconds. Even the black belt instructors are easily dealt with, and considering that I would struggle with the average Bjj black belt, the fact that these people are several magnitudes better than them is something to think about.

Which brings us back to the general question; Are competitive sport martial artists superior to non competitive martial artists? I simply can't see how they aren't. Beyond grappling, look at the various showcases of traditional Chinese martial artists going up against MMA and sport fighters. Universally, the traditional martial artists lose, and many of the people they lose to aren't even professional fighters. Pushing this up a notch, if Jon Jones or Khabib walked into your dojo, could your instructor beat them in a fight? Bringing this down a notch would your traditional karate instructor be able to stand toe to toe against an amateur boxer? These are questions to consider because we continue to run across people who say that since their style includes wrist locks, throws, kicks, and kata, they have an advantage over a boxer because "the boxer only has punches".

I would argue that the boxer has more than punches. They have conditioning, durability, endurance, and fighting experience.

Anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Okay I see it clearly now after reading your post. lol. I thought you meant better in every way when you used the word "superior", but I see you are only referring to fighting ability.

Yes dude, they are. This field we call martial arts is a field of violence and physical supremacy. The ones who come out on top in fights are the superior ones. It's just that simple.

Modern MMA is the best thing we can have of style versus style. We once had gladiatorial boxing matches in Rome, bare-knuckle boxing in Britain, Vale Tudo in Brazil, and bare-knuckle boxing through Bare-Knuckle FC. None of those are as good as actual MMA. And if MMA dictates that kickboxers and wrestlers can beat the living hell out of traditionalists, then kickboxers and wrestlers are the best.

To me, it's that simple. Everything else is a lie. This is not anime or a hollywood movie.

 

[Bee Brian]

Here we go....

I rated this "informative" because I can.

 

[dvcochran]

I can’t pretend to have the data that a large scale study would provide, but I can offer my personal experience.

I trained “ninjutsu” (Bujinkan) for about 8 years before moving on to arts like BJJ and Muay Thai and I am very sure that I was a better fighter as a result of that training than I would have been if I had sat on my butt and not done any training during that time. (And yes, I did get into a few scuffles which served to calibrate where my abilities were at.)

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent that time training in a more functional system? Certainly not.

Was I as good a fighter as I thought I was before I had those various scuffles as reality checks? Nope.

Was I as good a fighter as I could have been if I had spent those years on strength training and playing some non-martial sport to develop my overall athleticism instead of training ninjutsu? Maybe, maybe not. Knowing my personal interests and motivation, I don’t know if any non-martial pursuit would have captured my interest well enough to drive me to put in the work.

Bear in mind that I started out as an extremely unathletic, uncoordinated, scrawny, physically timid bookworm who was completely out of touch with my own body and couldn’t hold my own in a pillow fight. My training in the Bujinkan greatly increased my balance, coordination, body awareness and control, got me used to a greater degree of physical contact than I was used to, increased my pain tolerance, got me more psychologically conditioned to seeing punches and kicks coming at me, taught me some valid tactical concepts and principles, and also a few workable techniques.

It’s true that someone who grew up playing contact sports and getting into fights might have gotten all those benefits to a greater degree than I did from my Bujinkan training, but I’m not comparing myself to them. I’m comparing myself after my training to myself before my training.

In addition, I think my Bujinkan experience was helpful as I moved on to other arts - the curriculum does include some widely applicable concepts, even if the training methods are ... suboptimal.

I really do not think that could have been better said. Good on you, mate.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay I see it clearly now after reading your post. lol. I thought you meant better in every way when you used the word "superior", but I see you are only referring to fighting ability.

Is there another criteria we should be applying to the Martial Arts?

 

[Bee Brian]

Is there another criteria we should be applying to the Martial Arts?

Yeah. Morality. A bully is a terrible martial artist compared to a kind-hearted newbie.

In EVERY arena of life, the criteria of ethics will always be there. I haven't discovered WHY, but it's always included.