Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Steve]

I wholly agree. I think (I've kind of lost track here, so forgive me if I get off track) my point was that competition favors the quicker development at all stages. So there's not much room in inter-style competition for a style that takes a plodding path, even for part of what they do. Someone doing something that stays focused on faster development against resistance will gain an irrecoverable advantage (unless they stop developinng, of course).

I think we're getting somewhere. I would expect that folks who are plodding along would see a much faster development at all stages if they competed. You seem to believe that some things are just intrinsically plodding. That may be so relative to other things. But every activity requires some kind of application in order to move out of a cursory understanding and into all of that higher level nuance you referenced earlier. And the more consistent the application is with the purpose of the activity, the faster and more predictable the development of skill.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think we're getting somewhere. I would expect that folks who are plodding along would see a much faster development at all stages if they competed. You seem to believe that some things are just intrinsically plodding. That may be so relative to other things. But every activity requires some kind of application in order to move out of a cursory understanding and into all of that higher level nuance you referenced earlier. And the more consistent the application is with the purpose of the activity, the faster and more predictable the development of skill.

i don’t know you guys, I don’t your background, your age, your experience level etc. Would those of you contributing to this discussion care to reveal anything like this? I ask because I believe it’s informative to the discussion. Are all of you instructors of your respective arts? Professional fighters? 10 years? 40 years? It matters for a variety of reasons.

 

[drop bear]

How very profound. Who knew?

Surprisingly not many.

Some people think a takedown works like a punch where say like you punch someone and they are knocked out or not. You throw someone and they fall over or don't.

But takedowns don't work that way as you take a dominant position. Which makes the takedown easier and so on.

But you takedown

 

[drop bear]

I honestly hope you start to mature your chase for conversational content.

Well yeah. So when you are young you want to risk loss and develop yourself and your martial arts.

Then at some point you are training for easy victory and recognition.

I mean you still take the belts but you gain them by doing activities that are subjective. Like gradings and what not. And of course nobody wants to fail an old guy. So then they have to nurse you through that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wouldn't a more accurate statement is that modern methodologies entered into the equation, thus forcing a more modern approach to training? For example, you don't really need to know how to use a sword if everyone is now using guns, and it's illegal to carry a sword.

That is a false equivalence, a sword and a gun are two different tools for two different applications. They each have a use, they each have a virtue, there is some overlap as they are both weapons. I think of competition and self defense in a similar fashion. Both are combat, in both instances the goal is to win. The terrain and methods differ significantly. In self defense, there may be multiple opponents, weapons, water, glass, etc. Going to the ground may be better in one situation, but there are no guarantees of anything in the street. This is where I will make my argument that if competition style “fighting” is all you learned, you may not come out on top. That is metaphorically and maybe even literally speaking, bringing a sword to a gunfight.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well yeah. So when you are young you want to risk loss and develop yourself and your martial arts.

Then at some point you are training for easy victory and recognition.

I mean you still take the belts but you gain them by doing activities that are subjective. Like gradings and what not. And of course nobody wants to fail an old guy. So then they have to nurse you through that.

And how old is old to you? Training for easy victory? is that how your school trains? Nursing old guys through the next belt because you don’t want to fail them? Are you joking?

 

[Hanzou]

That is a false equivalence, a sword and a gun are two different tools for two different applications. They each have a use, they each have a virtue, there is some overlap as they are both weapons. I think of competition and self defense in a similar fashion. Both are combat, in both instances the goal is to win. The terrain and methods differ significantly. In self defense, there may be multiple opponents, weapons, water, glass, etc. Going to the ground may be better in one situation, but there are no guarantees of anything in the street. This is where I will make my argument that if competition style “fighting” is all you learned, you may not come out on top. That is metaphorically and maybe even literally speaking, bringing a sword to a gunfight.

Going to the ground is actually better in multiple situations. If you're a teacher having to deal with a crazed student, taking them to the ground and pinning them is a good way to diffuse the situation without hurting them. Same applies if you need to control a loved one.

If you're dealing with a better stand up grappler, being a superior ground grappler may give you a chance, since excellent stand up grapplers like wrestlers rarely learn submissions.

Dealing with someone throwing strikes, closing the distance getting into the clinch and taking them down can reduce your chance of severe injury.

If you're a woman in an inferior position and getting attacked or sexually assaulted, learning BJJ escapes, sweeps, and especially chokes from inferior positions can be critical to stopping an assault and maybe even saving your life.

If you get knocked to the ground and have to fight off your back without much chance of being able to fully stand, you better learn how to get them to the ground (which is possible if you know the sweeps from that position).

There's more obviously, but going to the ground has a myriad of benefits.

As for the sword vs the gun, the point is there isn't much point in learning how to use a sword. You're not going to be carrying a sword around all the time, if ever, and you really can't replace sword application with a broom stick or a baton. It seems rather silly to spend a great deal of time learning sword work for self defense if it's something you're never going to really use. Given America's lax gun laws (if you live in the US) you're better off buying a gun and going to the range for target practice.

BTW, I always find it amusing when the multiple attacker argument pops up, because that's a worst case scenario REGARDLESS of what martial arts system you take. It's not about going to the ground is a bad idea in a multiple attacker situation, it's about the fact that a multiple attacker situation is very bad period. The discussion should be avoiding getting attacked by multiple attackers in the first place, because even if you're mister "I'm staying on my feet no matter what", you're going to lose in a multiple attacker situation. The only art that has a high chance of success in a multiple attacker situation is Run Fu taught by Sifu Nike and Sensei Adidas.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Wouldn't a more accurate statement is that modern methodologies entered into the equation, thus forcing a more modern approach to training? For example, you don't really need to know how to use a sword if everyone is now using guns, and it's illegal to carry a sword.

It's never illegal to carry a long stick, and even a child can wield one effectively.

How come we didn't need MMA to tell us anything about staff combat? Because we already knew it can be lethal. The "sport" version of many weapon martial arts would still lead to countless deaths. The combat sports are just safe enough to be legal, except where they aren't.

This child is displaying something far more powerful than the fixed set he's doing. That is kung fu in a nutshell. So is modern sport combat. It's the same thing because if this kid grows up to learn MMA, watch out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think we're getting somewhere. I would expect that folks who are plodding along would see a much faster development at all stages if they competed. You seem to believe that some things are just intrinsically plodding. That may be so relative to other things. But every activity requires some kind of application in order to move out of a cursory understanding and into all of that higher level nuance you referenced earlier. And the more consistent the application is with the purpose of the activity, the faster and more predictable the development of skill.

Some things can't be applied (in your sense) until they are developed sufficiently. I don't know any way a partially developed use of aiki tension can be leveraged in application. It's either there, or trying to use it becomes an opening for the opponent. So, for someone trying to compete, there's a disincentive to try to use it, and a strong incentive to avoid trying to use it and find something else that works in that context. So trying to use that tension in competition before it is properly developed will absolutely not speed it up, and is likely to help develop the habit of not using it.

Once it has been developed, it could be brought to competition.

EDIT: I guess what I forgot to say in this is that I mostly agree. Competition will be likely to develop the martial artist in their general skills (for that competition, of course), but not necessarily for some specific attributes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i don’t know you guys, I don’t your background, your age, your experience level etc. Would those of you contributing to this discussion care to reveal anything like this? I ask because I believe it’s informative to the discussion. Are all of you instructors of your respective arts? Professional fighters? 10 years? 40 years? It matters for a variety of reasons.

I don't think age is all that relevant. Years of experience is, but doesn't really get to to the heart of what you're wondering. I'll just say that everyone significantly involved in this (drop bear, Hanzou, Steve) has a significant level of experience, though their experiences are quite different.

 

[Oily Dragon]

If nothing else, it makes getting really good at using a sword very difficult, because you can't ever really use it anymore. Which leads to sport...

You can master a stick, carry a stick, ward off attackers with a stick, disarm people with a stick.

That's before we get to dancing with it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Musashi won one of his most famous duels with a boat oar.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Going to the ground is actually better in multiple situations. If you're a teacher having to deal with a crazed student, taking them to the ground and pinning them is a good way to diffuse the situation without hurting them. Same applies if you need to control a loved one.

If you're dealing with a better stand up grappler, being a superior ground grappler may give you a chance, since excellent stand up grapplers like wrestlers rarely learn submissions.

Dealing with someone throwing strikes, closing the distance getting into the clinch and taking them down can reduce your chance of severe injury.

If you're a woman in an inferior position and getting attacked or sexually assaulted, learning BJJ escapes, sweeps, and especially chokes from inferior positions can be critical to stopping an assault and maybe even saving your life.

If you get knocked to the ground and have to fight off your back without much chance of being able to fully stand, you better learn how to get them to the ground (which is possible if you know the sweeps from that position).

There's more obviously, but going to the ground has a myriad of benefits.

As for the sword vs the gun, the point is there isn't much point in learning how to use a sword. You're not going to be carrying a sword around all the time, if ever, and you really can't replace sword application with a broom stick or a baton. It seems rather silly to spend a great deal of time learning sword work for self defense if it's something you're never going to really use. Given America's lax gun laws (if you live in the US) you're better off buying a gun and going to the range for target practice.

BTW, I always find it amusing when the multiple attacker argument pops up, because that's a worst case scenario REGARDLESS of what martial arts system you take. It's not about going to the ground is a bad idea in a multiple attacker situation, it's about the fact that a multiple attacker situation is very bad period. The discussion should be avoiding getting attacked by multiple attackers in the first place, because even if you're mister "I'm staying on my feet no matter what", you're going to lose in a multiple attacker situation. The only art that has a high chance of success in a multiple attacker situation is Run Fu taught by Sifu Nike and Sensei Adidas.

I agree that run fu is always best. its not always obvious that there are multiple attackers initially. I have been in that situation more than once. It is more often the case where I grew up. People who train aren’t generally out there starting fights in the street. More often it’s a group of individuals pumping each other up to do that. Situational awareness to avoid is better than getting into a stand up or ground fight any day. I only rock Sifu adidas never sensei Nike.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Because resistance leads us to use what works against it (and away from what doesn't), relying on it for all aspects of the style would cause those slower-developing aspects to wither. Nothing wrong with that, of course, if you're trying to make the style more efficient for development. But it would intrinsically change what the style is, leaving out part that fascinates me more than 30 years into it.

I find this difficult to explain, frankly.

If all one is interested in is getting sustenance, they don't need to go beyond peanut butter & jelly and tuna fish sandwiches. It's effective and quick serves its purpose. So why spend time learning to cook? But one will never become a gourmet chef and appreciate complex flavors if expediency is the only concern.

It's possible now, it seems, to be happy communicating by text with LOL, WTF, OMG, and other shorthand (that I know nothing about). Quick and effective, so what is the incentive to actually learn to spell, use compound sentences and be able to write prose or poetry?

By short circuiting the "plodding path," the job may get done, but the art and its intricacies are lost. The style, which gave birth to the quick and effective techniques, suffers. Perhaps there should be a distinction between a fighting method and a martial "art." A method can be learned quickly, to learn an art may take decades. A method does not contain the full art. But the art will contain the method. However, nothing precludes one from following both paths simultaneously, if they wish.

It all depends on what you want to get out of the activity. I'm a creative cook and like to add subtle flavors of several ethnic cuisines. Time consuming and a lot to clean up, but I really enjoy the meal. But I can still make a peanut butter & jelly sandwich with the best of them.

Did I come close, GPS?

 

[Hanzou]

It's never illegal to carry a long stick, and even a child can wield one effectively.

Yeah, whacking someone with a stick is completely different than slashing someone with an edged weapon. Hence why Jo do and even Kendo is nothing like Kenjutsu or other sword arts. You're better off learning Filipino stick fighting than trying to replace sword slashes with hitting someone with a stick.

Even with that said, how often are you going to be carrying around a staff or a baton?

How come we didn't need MMA to tell us anything about staff combat? Because we already knew it can be lethal. The "sport" version of many weapon martial arts would still lead to countless deaths. The combat sports are just safe enough to be legal, except where they aren't.

Do you have some information and statistics from these underground bloodsports where people are slaughtered on a consistent basis with medieval weapons?

This child is displaying something far more powerful than the fixed set he's doing. That is kung fu in a nutshell. So is modern sport combat. It's the same thing because if this kid grows up to learn MMA, watch out.

I have a feeling that despite all of that pretty dancing with a stick, someone could just walk up and sock him in the face.....

Yeah, that's how low my opinion on kata/forms has become.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I have a feeling that despite all of that pretty dancing with a stick, someone could just walk up and sock him in the face.....

Few would dare, though. "Emotional content".

Here's another example of the same set.

Go on, Half Hidden...walk up and sock him in the face with your grappling prowess. Try not to get your skull caved in. Afterward he'll tell the authorities, without lying, that he defended himself with a walking stick.

 

[Hanzou]

Few would dare, though. "Emotional content".

Here's another example of the same set.

Go on, Half Hidden...walk up and sock him in the face with your grappling prowess. Try not to get your skull caved in. Afterward he'll tell the authorities, without lying, that he defended himself with a walking stick.

Do you have an example of someone defending themselves with a kung-fu staff style in modern times?

 

[Alan0354]

Do you have an example of someone defending themselves with a kung-fu staff style in modern times?

In the video, the stick is very long. Not only it's not practical to carry around, it's too clumsy to swing around in tight space. You need open space to use that long a stick.

But for short stick, why not, we call it walk cane. I am carrying a cane everywhere I go. I practice using a walking cane for self defense. I would take this over bare hand striking or even grappling.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do you have an example of someone defending themselves with a kung-fu staff style in modern times?

Do you have an example of someone defending themselves with a kung-fu staff style in modern times?

We have established that you feel Bjj is the be all, end all Martial art. Do You practice any striking? How do feel about a speed bag? Heavy bag? Calisthenics? Is that all a waste of time? It’s not fighting per se. I have no examples of defending in modern times with a jump rope. Although we do have a heavy weighted jump rope that the students have named Igor.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

By the way I have been defeated by Igor more than once lol.