Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Hanzou]

This is simply not true in the bigger picture. You do go on to clarify this somewhat, but then you close by confining your argument to a takedown.

It is a head scratcher that you seem to think a striker's mindset it that every strike Has to be a knock out.
In proportion to the number of boxing matches there have been, how many have finished with only one punch?

The point is that if a grappler takes you down, and you have little to no grappling experience, your chances of success are greatly diminished. This is especially the case if you're dealing with a submission grappler. Thus, if you're someone whose martial arts completely revolve around punching and kicking and remaining on your feet, you're only real chance is to end the encounter as quickly as possible. Why? Because if you're allowing repeated takedown attempts, at some point (sometimes the first attempt) the grappler will be successful.

 

[Hanzou]

If it's the goal, probably. If it's a goal, then it depends. What's most important, in my experience, is that the student keep training and developing skills. For some folks, that means training in a system that particularly captures their attention, even if it's not the fastest method of developing fighting skill.

I shifted that starting portion of my curriculum specifically because of the point you're making. I felt folks could develop basic skills (striking, controlling distance, simple groundwork, controlling structure) much more quickly, then have those to practice and sharpen while they are working on the more difficult and time-consuming portions of the curriculum. If I were teaching solely for self-defense (the goal), I'd stick mostly to those parts.

I suppose the point I'm getting at is that a training methodology that encourages fast progression and rapid development doesn't ONLY benefit competition goals, it also benefits goals that revolve around self defense, fitness, and other MA goals.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some folks around here who are really into kata are going to be surprised to learn that they don't really understand it. That might be worth another thread. Because the karate folks seem to have some real opinions on the topic.

The arguments between the "kata is great" crowd and the "kata sucks" crowd are nothing compared to the arguments that kata lovers can have among themselves about what kata is actually for and how it's supposed to work.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think a lot of it comes down to efficiency for the context, if nothing else. Being competitive in something like MMA means developing skill as fast as (or faster than) the next guy. Systems that are designed for a plodding approach don’t convert well.

Because competition isnt always the focus, mastery of the self is higher on the list than mastery of others in some “plodding” systems. I have said as much earlier, and in other threads than this. I realize that younger guys typically do need to test their abilities in as close to real world situations as possible. That is an important part of training and growth as a martial artist. I also believe there are other worlds than these to explore and learn from in the process or journey or whatever you concieve as your reasons for training. In other words, there are many things on the list, fighting is only one of them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not just that, the whole system favors grapplers. Think of this, typically when grappler first shoot, they wrap their hands around your body. The head is right there. BUT rules do NOT allow you to hit the back of the head, you have to hit in certain way that is a big disadvantage to strikers. Just think if you are allowed to elbow to the back of the head, it will be a big game changer. Pushing the striker against the fence and work to pull the striker down is not very practical if they allow you to hit the head unlimited.

Hell, I keep reminding myself if I ever face a grappler on the street, BITE and look for the eyes. I will never go into the octagon anyway.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Biting and eye gouging may not relieve the choke. Many guys will hang on through a bite or a gouge. Best to get some ground training or you may find yourself in a bad situation. A leg lock will ruin your life if you are ankle biting the guy and he goes full tilt. As much as i prefer to strike, I realize the importance of ground game. As Hanzou has stated, you can get some jiu jutsu basics fairly quickly. A DLT on the street can kill you if your head gets slammed on concrete. A sub dural bleed is serious business.

 

[drop bear]

This is simply not true in the bigger picture. You do go on to clarify this somewhat, but then you close by confining your argument to a takedown.

It is a head scratcher that you seem to think a striker's mindset it that every strike Has to be a knock out.
In proportion to the number of boxing matches there have been, how many have finished with only one punch?

That is because Striking and grappling work differently.

 

[drop bear]

Because competition isnt always the focus, mastery of the self is higher on the list than mastery of others in some “plodding” systems. I have said as much earlier, and in other threads than this. I realize that younger guys typically do need to test their abilities in as close to real world situations as possible. That is an important part of training and growth as a martial artist. I also believe there are other worlds than these to explore and learn from in the process or journey or whatever you concieve as your reasons for training. In other words, there are many things on the list, fighting is only one of them.

So as you mature you start to chase other things than honesty?

 

[drop bear]

Biting and eye gouging may not relieve the choke. Many guys will hang on through a bite or a gouge. Best to get some ground training or you may find yourself in a bad situation. A leg lock will ruin your life if you are ankle biting the guy and he goes full tilt. As much as i prefer to strike, I realize the importance of ground game. As Hanzou has stated, you can get some jiu jutsu basics fairly quickly. A DLT on the street can kill you if your head gets slammed on concrete. A sub dural bleed is serious business.

Ironically I think a heel hook would be super effective against a biter/eye gouger as it attacks the other side of their body.

I do a kasegetami and a gift wrap to prevent that kind of silliness from people. Although if I wanted to bite or eyegouge them. I would be in a good position to do so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is similar to the old canard that MMA and BJJ only teach the simple techniques which explained why they were able to apply them so quickly. Personally, I believe that when you apply skills, your skills improve fairly predictably. And when you don’t, skill development is very unreliable.

So, I’m a nutshell, if people become skilled in a plodding manner… that is a pretty good indication something is up with application, a disconnect between what they are learning and what they are doing.

I can see where you're coming from on this. But there are some things that are not sped up by resistive application. I'll go back to my core art in this. There is a lot of nuance to be explored - this is a big part of what I've always loved about the art. I've never seen that nuance show up for a relatively new practitioner (even the really quick learners) when doing any kind of free randori. The reason for that is pretty straightforward: there are other skills and principles within what we do that are much easier to apply against resistance. It takes a long time to get good enough at the nuanced stuff for it to be directly usable.

This is why I give more expression to the Judo in what we do than a lot of instructors. That portion is more directly applicable in the first few years, while the other parts (the aiki stuff) is developing. Resistance does (in my experience) improve the ability to deal with resistance. But it doesn't necessarily speed up the development of all factors. Because resistance leads us to use what works against it (and away from what doesn't), relying on it for all aspects of the style would cause those slower-developing aspects to wither. Nothing wrong with that, of course, if you're trying to make the style more efficient for development. But it would intrinsically change what the style is, leaving out part that fascinates me more than 30 years into it.

I find this difficult to explain, frankly. It's something I've been discussing with someone else in DMs, and it's something I know how to develop, but am still learning how to explain well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So as you mature you start to chase other things than honesty?

That’s just rude, and ignorant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I completely disagree. Drilling a single technique and saying that is the same as kata is a highly dubious statement, because kata is highly complex and intricate. Judo 2-person kata is a prime example of this.

I would say that the above is nothing remotely similar to drilling a single technique with a partner.

Not all kata are. The kata (what I refer to as "Classical forms") in NGA are static-start fed single techniques with a passive partner. In a few of them, they aren't passive, because they are feeding the technique (stepping in to shove, deliveirng a front kick, etc.). Mind you, the original versions (as I understand them) from Daito-ryu were a bit more....stylized.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ironically I think a heel hook would be super effective against a biter/eye gouger as it attacks the other side of their body.

I do a kasegetami and a gift wrap to prevent that kind of silliness from people. Although if I wanted to bite or eyegouge them. I would be in a good position to do so.

That’s literally what I said.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ironically I think a heel hook would be super effective against a biter/eye gouger as it attacks the other side of their body.

I do a kasegetami and a gift wrap to prevent that kind of silliness from people. Although if I wanted to bite or eyegouge them. I would be in a good position to do so.

Its ironic that you think you understand irony.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I suppose the point I'm getting at is that a training methodology that encourages fast progression and rapid development doesn't ONLY benefit competition goals, it also benefits goals that revolve around self defense, fitness, and other MA goals.

I wholly agree. I think (I've kind of lost track here, so forgive me if I get off track) my point was that competition favors the quicker development at all stages. So there's not much room in inter-style competition for a style that takes a plodding path, even for part of what they do. Someone doing something that stays focused on faster development against resistance will gain an irrecoverable advantage (unless they stop developinng, of course).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I really try to keep a civil tone here. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So as you mature you start to chase other things than honesty?

So, you find anything other than fighting dishonest?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This

So, you find anything other than fighting dishonest?

It seems to me that he wants to interject hyperbole into whatever discussion the adults are having.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That is because Striking and grappling work differently.

How very profound. Who knew?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So as you mature you start to chase other things than honesty?

I honestly hope you start to mature your chase for conversational content.