Anti-grappling.

[Steve]

That's correct but it's far from a fact

I think it's a fact that the technique is questionable. Its my opinion that it shouldn't be taught.


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[ballen0351]

Get a partner and try that move sometime.

Naaa I'm good I don't roll around on the ground

So you actually believe that an untrained person can magically perform an effective guard that a person can't punch their way out of? Please tell me you're joking.

I don't assume anything since I know anything in the self defense world is possible. You feel free to underestimate people all you want.

I was saying "what" because that response had nothing to do with what I said.

Also only one branch of Bjj does online belts. Most of us aren't affiliated with that branch. Also you can only get to Blue belt. Blue belts in Bjj are hardly "experts".

Well not according to the website affiliated to your picture.

Now you're just trolling. Congratulations.

You have been doing that this entire thread so ummmm congratulations?

 

[ballen0351]

I think it's a fact that the technique is questionable. Its my opinion that it shouldn't be taught.


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Well that's Simple Then you shouldn't attend classes with him then huh? It's hardly a fact that is questionable since the guy teaching is thinks it's fine.


Why do you care what he teaches?

 

[K-man]

Here's another.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrOuoYwBqw

 

[Hanzou]

Naaa I'm good I don't roll around on the ground

So how would you know if the technique worked or not?

I don't assume anything since I know anything in the self defense world is possible. You feel free to underestimate people all you want.

Developing a skillful guard without training that is capable of neutralizing a trained opponent isn't possible.

Well not according to the website affiliated to your picture.

Draculino doesn't give out online belts;

Can you get awarded a belt through this site?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. We follow the IBJJF rules with regards to awarding belts and as such will never let you submit videos to be awarded a belt. However, if you have proof of training and want to come test with Draculino for a week, he may decide to award a belt. Again, we follow the Federation guidelines when awarding belts and see this site as a fantastic compliment to regular training.

You have been doing that this entire thread so ummmm congratulations?

Factually pointing out flawed techniques designed to (supposedly) dismantle one of the foundations of my art is considered trolling now?

 

[Steve]

Well that's Simple Then you shouldn't attend classes with him then huh? It's hardly a fact that is questionable since the guy teaching is thinks it's fine.


Why do you care what he teaches?

Because he thread is about anti grappling and the video was posted for discussion. Seems like a very reasonable reason. Why do you care so much about what I care about?


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[Steve]

Here's another.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrOuoYwBqw

Do you see how this technique is fundamentally different than the one in the Hayes video?


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[Hanzou]

Here's another.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrOuoYwBqw

It's not "another". That move actually works.

 

[K-man]

Do you see how this technique is fundamentally different than the one in the Hayes video?

No. I can see that he stood first but fundamentally the technique is the same.

It's not "another". That move actually works.

Great of you to acknowledge that. What it in fact means that the technique is not laughable or flawed. The way Steve Hayes was transitioning into it may have been. So instead of bagging the man and his technique you could have shown us how to make the technique work instead of suggesting it wouldn't.

Oh, and here is another.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRZowSbZbks

Seems to me lots of guys can make it work. Why not you and your three bar instructor?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

We all have to give Mr. Hayes credit for bringing groundwork into his system of To Shin Do. I have not trained with Steve but know several people who have and they had nothing but good things to say of his Taijutsu. Actually for the students of To Shin Do learning grappling is a good thing. I would as I have done throughout the thread advise anyone who is bringing grappling into their system to go out and train with competent grapplers so that they can adapt it to their system from a structural and fundamentally sound position. Whether those people are in Brazilian Jiujitsu, wrestling, etc. it does not matter. Learn from someone who understands what they are doing. If you are adapting and innovating things bounce it then off one of your grappling friends. Just my 02.

 

[drop bear]

No. I can see that he stood first but fundamentally the technique is the same.


Great of you to acknowledge that. What it in fact means that the technique is not laughable or flawed. The way Steve Hayes was transitioning into it may have been. So instead of bagging the man and his technique you could have shown us how to make the technique work instead of suggesting it wouldn't.

Oh, and here is another.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRZowSbZbks

Seems to me lots of guys can make it work. Why not you and your three bar instructor?

OK so it is the man that is at fault and not the move. Hence anti grappling needs to be taught by grapplers and Stephen Haynes needs to outsource his training instead of teaching his non working half concept.

This is ironically still consistent. Because you see a lot of fundamental escapes in anti grappling they are just broken by the instructor who does not understand what he is teaching.

And by teaching of course we mean selling.

And by the way there is still no reason to bash your uke. This goes double for leg locks as they don't have the wiggle room.

 

[drop bear]

We all have to give Mr. Hayes credit for bringing groundwork into his system of To Shin Do. I have not trained with Steve but know several people who have and they had nothing but good things to say of his Taijutsu. Actually for the students of To Shin Do learning grappling is a good thing. I would as I have done throughout the thread advise anyone who is bringing grappling into their system to go out and train with competent grapplers so that they can adapt it to their system from a structural and fundamentally sound position. Whether those people are in Brazilian Jiujitsu, wrestling, etc. it does not matter. Learn from someone who understands what they are doing. If you are adapting and innovating things bounce it then off one of your grappling friends. Just my 02.

And this is why with MMA you will see people grade to high ranks in the styles they are trying to incorporate. Not just attend a seminar or watch a YouTube video.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

No. I can see that he stood first but fundamentally the technique is the same.

Nope. Remember what I said in my earlier comment about moves that look superficially the same? The Hayes demonstration was missing everything which makes Dave's technique work in the video you linked to. I kind of suspect Steve may have watched a video like that one and invented his own version based on what he thought he was seeing without understanding the important parts that make it work.

Just to be clear, when we're saying Hayes video is seriously, seriously flawed, we're not saying the leg lock at the end isn't a valid submission. (Steve's execution could be improved, but that's not what we're talking about.) We're talking about the actual guard break and entry into the submission.

Oh, and here is another.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRZowSbZbks

Seems to me lots of guys can make it work. Why not you and your three bar instructor?

That version is definitely low percentage, but it isn't as fatally flawed as what Hayes was teaching. And no, it's not the same technique.

 

[drop bear]

I dont think anyone said it was good, or the prefered method. Even he said it was more of a last resort after other things have failed. Im just saying its not a "Fact" that its crap. Its not a"fact" it would never be effective and could "Never" work.

Reading his bio he seems to believe he is. So "should" he be? I have no Idea it may not be grappling in the style you know but it may be perfectly acceptable for his style

your taking abig leap thinking people in his audience dont know whats good or not. We are basing our judgement off of a small you tube clip not the entire class. Perhaps his form or posture or hand placement is off because hes busy talking while teaching, or maybe he was just having an off day, or maybe he just doesn't care and wants $. I dont know enough about him or the class

Reading some of the info on Hayes since I dont know much about him but it looks like he believes hes an expert in his style and in the grappling thats within his style. His style is different then yours. Grappling is a huge broad thing. BJJ grappling is different then Judo grappling which is different then Goju grappling which is different then Hapkido, wrestling, ect so whos to say he doesnt know what hes talking about? I never once heard him say he was teaching anything other then his ownstyle

It is not that big a leap. If the teacher does not have the basic tools to teach. Why would the student?

You are trying to suggest that stylistic difference is the same as works/doesn't work. I believe that is a misconception. I mean if you were to go learn a grappling style and had to choose wrestling,judo,bjj. There is an argument that you should choose for a stylistic reason. But they all have been made to work.

Very few bjjers will turn around and discount a top wrestlers advice because it is not their thing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You are trying to suggest that stylistic difference is the same as works/doesn't work. I believe that is a misconception. I mean if you were to go learn a grappling style and had to choose wrestling,judo,bjj. There is an argument that you should choose for a stylistic reason. But they all have been made to work.

Very few bjjers will turn around and discount a top wrestlers advice because it is not their thing.

Yep. I may be a BJJ practitioner, but I love having the chance to get advice from a good wrestler, judoka, or sambist.

 

[drop bear]

Something just occurred to me. Isn't self defense training a worst case scenario type thing? I just read this exchange and it seemed as though the two roles were reversed. I would expect the RBSD guy to be asking the what ifs and the non-self defense guy answering.

RTKDCMB: what if you couldn't drop your hips because the shot was too deep? What if you didn't "drop him?" What if you're now on your back and his hips are in front of yours (ie, you are bottom under mount), the mount is very high, limiting use of your arms and putting a tremendous amount of pressure directly on your diaphragm making it difficult to breathe, and he is using his forearm and elbow to strike your face?

No self defence isn't. It is an enough to get by thing. Sport is over engineered and why it looks unrealistic. And why I mentioned somewhere there just do the knee slide. You are teaching ninjers not grapplers.

Same as when I do knife. I don't learn advanced stuff. I make do with solid fundamental basics. And accept my limitations.

 

[K-man]

OK so it is the man that is at fault and not the move. Hence anti grappling needs to be taught by grapplers and Stephen Haynes needs to outsource his training instead of teaching his non working half concept.

This is ironically still consistent. Because you see a lot of fundamental escapes in anti grappling they are just broken by the instructor who does not understand what he is teaching.

And by teaching of course we mean selling.

And by the way there is still no reason to bash your uke. This goes double for leg locks as they don't have the wiggle room.

That's all I was trying to point out. When I saw the technique it looked ok as an end point, but there were numerous posts pointing out how bad it was. Whether the instructor demonstrating is right or not isn't the point. On this forum we have many knowledgeable martial artists and I like to think I can get some good advice when something like this comes up. Normally I wouldn't be wanting to do this type of technique because my philosophy is to get up and away, not go from one grappling position to another. However, I would like to try it out on some of my guys. Thank you for the advice, I will be careful of the knees. I just wish others had been as careful with my elbows.

I could put up dozens of videos that I believe show that people think they know what they don't. That is when we should be able to have our colleagues here explain how it could be done better, not just say it is a joke.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

That's all I was trying to point out. When I saw the technique it looked ok as an end point, but there were numerous posts pointing out how bad it was. Whether the instructor demonstrating is right or not isn't the point. On this forum we have many knowledgeable martial artists and I like to think I can get some good advice when something like this comes up. Normally I wouldn't be wanting to do this type of technique because my philosophy is to get up and away, not go from one grappling position to another. However, I would like to try it out on some of my guys. Thank you for the advice, I will be careful of the knees. I just wish others had been as careful with my elbows.

I could put up dozens of videos that I believe show that people think they know what they don't. That is when we should be able to have our colleagues here explain how it could be done better, not just say it is a joke.
:asian:

You could probably use that as a breakaway. Just don't hang on to the ankle.

Yeah they show the guard pass and the stand up and walk off on that video. And doing that will mean you won't unintentionally break someone's leg if both of you don't fully understand leg locks.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrOuoYwBqw

And I am serious about both of you. All your partner needs to do is try a "I wonder what happens if I escape like this? CRACK"

And you are driving the silly guy to the hospital.

 

[Hanzou]

Great of you to acknowledge that. What it in fact means that the technique is not laughable or flawed.

That isn't the same technique. Also, there was far more in Hayes' video that was laughable or flawed besides the actual technique. The stupid and pointless knee to the buttocks that left Hayes wide open for several horrible arm bars, shoulder locks, and sweeps for example.

The way Steve Hayes was transitioning into it may have been. So instead of bagging the man and his technique you could have shown us how to make the technique work instead of suggesting it wouldn't.

Plenty of people do that already, which is why I "bagged" on Hayes. There's no reason to create a half-baked technique when sound techniques that accomplish the same purpose already exist. There's no reason to embarrass yourself and your style when there's plenty of competent grapplers out there who would be more than willing to train with you and develop the ground fighting of your system. The only reasoning I can think of is that Hayes wanted to create a "ninja" version of the guard pass all on his own, and failed miserably. This, unfortunately makes people question his entire system of Martial Arts, and that's a shame.

Oh, and here is another.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRZowSbZbks

Seems to me lots of guys can make it work. Why not you and your three bar instructor?

Because again, that isn't the same technique. The technique includes the actual guard pass to hit the lock, not just the lock itself. Remember, the goal is to pass the guard. If your technique can't pass the guard, the entire technique is useless. Hayes' guard pass is a failure because it places you in an even worse position than you're trying to pass out of. You're never going to get to the Boston crab, because the grappler is going to be on top of you turning your face into hamburger.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Except the video is coming from a position of authority, so constructive criticism is pointless. Toshindo isn't going to change that technique because of criticism, they think it works fine against someone putting you in the guard. Constructive criticism is what happens when you're putting together that technique, and refining it into a sound product. We're way passed that point now, so all we can do now is point out how wrong it is.-

Constructive criticism doesn't have to only be constructive to the person showing the technique. If you have legitimate corrections and improvements (and I am sure you do) and you want people to take you seriously then rubbishing and belittling them is not the way to do it.