Anti-grappling.

[Hanzou]

Ballen, would you be so kind as to explain how this technique and posture would work against an advanced white belt or Blue belt in Bjj?

Hayes is saying that this technique helps disable someone in guard, causing them excutiating pain as demonstrated by the guy on the mat. This pain helps weaken the guard. However, to generate enough necessary striking power, you have to plant your hands on the mat in order to balance yourself.

 

[ballen0351]

Serphen haynes. More likely than the sun was in his eyes or that I am just not learning grappling correctly.

I'd agree if he was teaching BJJ but he's not he's teaching his own style so if you want to use his style you should lean it.


I think it's reckless to bash a style based on a 3 min YouTube clip. Especially when by most accounts Hayes is a good martial artist. I think without much more firsthand knowledge of the actual technique then he deserves the benefit of the doubt

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, would you be so kind as to explain how this technique and posture would work against an advanced white belt or Blue belt in Bjj?

Hayes is saying that this technique helps disable someone in guard, causing them excutiating pain as demonstrated by the guy on the mat. This pain helps weaken the guard. However, to generate enough necessary striking power, you have to plant your hands on the mat in order to balance yourself.

Well since I'm not a BJJ guy I'm not sure I know what would or wouldn't work against a blue belt. Also since every school has different requirements and standards to reach blue belts. I can say as someone that Broke his tailbone before slipping on the ice and falling onto stairs that it HURTS. If I were to use that technique I wouldn't aim for the meat of the butt I'd aim for the bone in the crack

 

[RTKDCMB]

If I were to use that technique I wouldn't aim for the meat of the butt I'd aim for the bone in the crack

And cause a crack in the bone.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Who are you or I to tell someone else what they can and can't teach ...

I would never tell Steve Hayes or anyone else what they can or cannot teach. He is free to teach it, I'm free to criticize it. Given that Steve himself has never been shy about criticizing techniques and training methods that he doesn't care for, I'm not particularly worried about hurting his feelings.

... and what's good or not.

If our training doesn't enable us to distinguish between what's effective and what is not, then we have a problem. If everything is equally valid, then why bother going to an instructor at all? Why not just stay at home and make up moves based on your favorite anime?

Yes grappling is grappling and again you may not like the technique but that doesn't mean it won't work. I once went to a call where a woman beat an armed robber with a canned ham. Is it the best technique nope but it worked. Would his technique be the best? Nope but it's also not the main focus of his style either so comparing his grappling to BJJ of course his will look less refined and less polished and even rudimentary but that doesn't mean it won't ever work.

If Hayes was just showing an unpolished move in need of some refinements, I wouldn't be worried about it. As you say, ground fighting isn't the main focus of Toshindo. If he just showed something simple that had a decent chance of success against an untrained grappler then I would give him credit for giving his students at least something to work with. You can see earlier in this thread where I gave credit to various Wing Chun and Aikido practitioners who did just that. The problem with this clip is that students who follow his instruction and imitate his movements are actually more likely to put themselves in a worse situation than if they had no instruction and just went on instinct. The martial version of the Hippocratic Oath should be: first, do no harm to yourself.

No thats an opinion. Im sure Hayes disagrees with your assessment.

Yep. Everything any of us says on here is an opinion. That said, not all opinions are created equal. If you want to know whether a certain ground grappling technique will work, you're better off trusting the opinions of people who over the years have had thousands of grappling matches with hundreds of opponents of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds (while learning from people who have had tens of thousands of grappling matches with thousands of opponents) than the opinion of someone without that sort of background who made up his own ground techniques and tested them only on his own compliant students.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Look, I understand that you are trying to steer us away from excess negativity, personal attacks and style bashing. I agree with all that. I'm not disparaging Toshindo as a whole. I'm not denigrating Steve Hayes as a martial artist or a person. (I've even said nice things about him.) I'm saying that in this particular case he is stepping outside of his expertise and doing his students a disservice.

 

[drop bear]

I'd agree if he was teaching BJJ but he's not he's teaching his own style so if you want to use his style you should lean it.


I think it's reckless to bash a style based on a 3 min YouTube clip. Especially when by most accounts Hayes is a good martial artist. I think without much more firsthand knowledge of the actual technique then he deserves the benefit of the doubt

Without first hand knowledge of guard passing? Your the one who bashed his style. I just said he had no idea what he was doing in that clip.

 

[ballen0351]

l

Without first hand knowledge of guard passing? Your the one who bashed his style. I just said he had no idea what he was doing in that clip.

I never based anyone's style. And I didn't say you were bashing his style others here have

 

[Steve]

No we still won't know of it works if you try it 20 times. Just because you can't get it to work doesn't mean somebody else can't get it to work

This is true; however, there is a difference between sound technique and unsound technique. There are some moves that an elite level athlete can get to work, that just don't work for anyone else. That doesn't make a technique sound. Rather, it's a testimant to that person's athletic ability.

Conversely, some techniques are sound, whether you can perform them or not. Given time to practice and train, a sound technique is one that will produce predictable and repeatable results. There are some gimmicky techniques in BJJ. But, and armbar from guard is fundamental, and anyone can do it reliably if you train for more than a year.

So, in the context of the Hayes video, his leglock is not sound technique if it requires extraordinarily rare and specific conditions in which to work. The sweep to mount, however, that he invites is solid technique.

And really, if you can't look at that video and the other one that Kman posted and see why one will work and one will not, you just lack the practical expertise. I lack the context to understand the nuances of many striking styles. It's just areas of expertise. And for a student, it's not a problem. An instructor, though, should really know what the heck he's talking about. And if Hayes doesn't understand why his technique is flawed (likely based upon the demonstration of the technique, including his explanation of what he's doing and why) he shouldn't be teaching it.

All of that leading to the larger point that anti-grappling is a subset of grappling. At some point, consulting with grapplers is critical. As we've seen, those wing-chunners who have done this are immediately apparent. Their techniques are more realistic and more likely to succeed, because they aren't invented in a vacuum.

 

[Steve]

I'd agree if he was teaching BJJ but he's not he's teaching his own style so if you want to use his style you should lean it.


I think it's reckless to bash a style based on a 3 min YouTube clip. Especially when by most accounts Hayes is a good martial artist. I think without much more firsthand knowledge of the actual technique then he deserves the benefit of the doubt

Just for clarity, I'm not bashing his style and I haven't seen anyone else in this thread do so, either. I am admittedly critical and skeptical of the specific technique shown in that video, as are others.

I don't know anything about Hayes as a martial artist, but as you say, by most accounts he's a solid guy. This technique, however, is crap.

 

[Buka]

As a little kid, all we did was fight and play fight in various forms. We played war, first with sticks then air rifles, we played with those little army men setting them up all over the place, then we bombed them, burned them whatever. We made spears and bow and arrows (the arrows went about a foot and a half but it was the thought that counts) we had rock fights, snowball fights, apple fights whatever. Everyone watched professional wrestling on Saturdays at 11 a.m. then went back out and wrestled with each other - using the same cool theatrics and noises.

(I actually have a point in all this, please bear with me)

We also fought for real, which sucked when you weren't big. Big kids pounded on everyone. The "mount" wasn't actually called anything, it was just what was done to smaller kids. Mount, pin their wrists to the ground or hold them in your grip, fill your mouth with saliva and slowly let it drip out so the little kid could watch it come towards his face real slow as he squirmed.(I was the bottom kid, not the top)

When we wrestled, those of us with strong legs (strong in the world of little kids) would wrap legs around the other kid and squeeze with all your might. It was called a "scissors" , never anything else, and sometimes it actually worked (little kids having skinny, weak ribs) It went by the wayside by the time we reached thirteen and started playing more sports and got interested in the oh so mysterious opposite sex.

I never heard the term "scissors" again until I was in Martial Arts, then it was a scissor takedown against the knees, ankles or waist. I don't hear it much anymore. Then that video went up. At the top of the video it says "scissor lock escape", which I found odd. Then at the start of the vid S Hayes says "he has this scissors lock on me here" but at the opening credit thing it says "Passing Guard Variation" that's the only time the word "guard" is used, Hayes never mentions it.

My point in all this - Hayes is the same age as me. Maybe he's referring to a scissors instead of a guard, because they are not the same thing and are not intended for use in the same way. I don't actually know anyone who uses a leg scissors as a hold, as I said, they are completely different. It would be like calling a headlock and guillotine the same thing. Might look similar to a civilian, but not to any of us on this forum whether we're grapplers or not.

At 1:45 of the video he says "he (opponent) may continue to push, trying to get me back where he can crush my ribs"

That statement isn't one used in BJJ, at least not in my experience, it's one used in conjunction with the old fashioned scissors lock I was talking about as kids. Maybe Tony, Steve or Hanzou can correct me - is any form of guard used as a squeeze against the ribs with the intention of hurting the ribs?

So, I'm not sure where anything was coming from in that class on that particular night. It's tough not having the entire context.

That being said, I love closed guard. I am somewhat an expert in people GETTING OUT OF MY GUARD, because I go to guard a lot. I've had people doing it the way of the second video, by elevating, dropping one knee and turning their body and MY hips (I release and scramble before any leg lock) but not in the way shown in the first, by laying back. I've had it tried a couple times, probably by accident on the part of my opponent, but I always ended up in mount. Always.

But against a scissors lock? Maybe, I don't know, I don't use a scissors lock, I use closed guard. And again, I ain't that good a grappler, I'm not a complete slouch, I can grapple, but that one there....not for me. And, again, I have no idea what context any of this was in. I just wish they hadn't had the opening credit of "passing guard variation."

The clip is four minutes long. Maybe the class or seminar was a couple hours long. Kind of a small, out of context thing to judge IMO. Especially if it wasn't meant against the game of guard.

 

[drop bear]

l

I never based anyone's style. And I didn't say you were bashing his style others here have

Only incidentally. The basic premise is non grapplers trying to counter grappling with bad grappling and calling that anti grappling. Which is dumb.

It is not a style thing it is solving the problem with half a solution thing.

It is not even a bjj is the answer thing. It is a do the job properly thing.

 

[drop bear]

Just for clarity, I'm not bashing his style and I haven't seen anyone else in this thread do so, either. I am admittedly critical and skeptical of the specific technique shown in that video, as are others.

I don't know anything about Hayes as a martial artist, but as you say, by most accounts he's a solid guy. This technique, however, is crap.

Well we kind of all are because we link bad grappling to styles. Ballen even did it that guard pass was what it was because Stephen Haynes is a ninja and not a bjjer.

But there is no reason everybody can't do good grappling it is cheap and available. Just some people are choosing not to.

 

[ballen0351]

This is true; however, there is a difference between sound technique and unsound technique. There are some moves that an elite level athlete can get to work, that just don't work for anyone else. That doesn't make a technique sound. Rather, it's a testimant to that person's athletic ability.

I agree totally. I've never said otherwise. My issues was someone posting his opinion as FACT that this could never work. That's simply not the case. I wouldn't try this technique because there are far better ways of accomplishing the same goal. The same could be said for many techniques. When I teach handcuffing I show several different ways some I like more then others. Some I teach and have never used in real life I teach it because the training commission says I must. Hayes himself said this wasn't the preferred technique. So even he agrees with you. However thay doesn't mean it can't work. It reminds me of the kids football game where the QB take the ball and slowly walks right past the defense. It was so unorthodox it should never work but it did because the other kids were like huh what's he doing. Sometimes crazy things work. I dressed like a clown once and picked up prostitutes. None of them thought I was a cop because I was dressed as a clown as stupid as it looked it worked.

Conversely, some techniques are sound, whether you can perform them or not. Given time to practice and train, a sound technique is one that will produce predictable and repeatable results. There are some gimmicky techniques in BJJ. But, and armbar from guard is fundamental, and anyone can do it reliably if you train for more than a year.

So, in the context of the Hayes video, his leglock is not sound technique if it requires extraordinarily rare and specific conditions in which to work. The sweep to mount, however, that he invites is solid technique.

And really, if you can't look at that video and the other one that Kman posted and see why one will work and one will not, you just lack the practical expertise. I lack the context to understand the nuances of many striking styles. It's just areas of expertise. And for a student, it's not a problem. An instructor, though, should really know what the heck he's talking about. And if Hayes doesn't understand why his technique is flawed (likely based upon the demonstration of the technique, including his explanation of what he's doing and why) he shouldn't be teaching it.

Again it's not my place to tell him what he should and shouldn't be teaching. His style his rules if I disagree I would not learn his style.

All of that leading to the larger point that anti-grappling is a subset of grappling. At some point, consulting with grapplers is critical. As we've seen, those wing-chunners who have done this are immediately apparent. Their techniques are more realistic and more likely to succeed, because they aren't invented in a vacuum.

I agree but it doesn't makenit a fact that what he taught can't work

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen even did it that guard pass was what it was because Stephen Haynes is a ninja and not a bjjer.
.

He isnt a BJJer at least according to his bio. Im not sure what your point is?

 

[ballen0351]

I would never tell Steve Hayes or anyone else what they can or cannot teach. He is free to teach it, I'm free to criticize it. Given that Steve himself has never been shy about criticizing techniques and training methods that he doesn't care for, I'm not particularly worried about hurting his feelings.

Im not worried about his feelings either there are some that have said he shouldn't be teaching it. Its none of our concern what he teaches unless we are his students

If our training doesn't enable us to distinguish between what's effective and what is not, then we have a problem. If everything is equally valid, then why bother going to an instructor at all? Why not just stay at home and make up moves based on your favorite anime?

Well there is something to be said for not reinventing the wheel so thats why we go to an instructor. But yes in my opinion one could make up their own movesif they wanted to. After all every style started in that very way someone decided to make up moves.

If Hayes was just showing an unpolished move in need of some refinements, I wouldn't be worried about it. As you say, ground fighting isn't the main focus of Toshindo. If he just showed something simple that had a decent chance of success against an untrained grappler then I would give him credit for giving his students at least something to work with. You can see earlier in this thread where I gave credit to various Wing Chun and Aikido practitioners who did just that. The problem with this clip is that students who follow his instruction and imitate his movements are actually more likely to put themselves in a worse situation than if they had no instruction and just went on instinct. The martial version of the Hippocratic Oath should be: first, do no harm to yourself.

Again I think your worried about nothing. The chances anyone in that class will ever need to use that move in real life are slim to none.

Yep. Everything any of us says on here is an opinion. That said, not all opinions are created equal. If you want to know whether a certain ground grappling technique will work, you're better off trusting the opinions of people who over the years have had thousands of grappling matches with hundreds of opponents of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds (while learning from people who have had tens of thousands of grappling matches with thousands of opponents) than the opinion of someone without that sort of background who made up his own ground techniques and tested them only on his own compliant students.

I agree but the only reason I entered this thread was someone claiming their opinion was fact and that is just not the case. Ive never said all opinions are equal. Thats a different topic all together

Look, I understand that you are trying to steer us away from excess negativity, personal attacks and style bashing. I agree with all that. I'm not disparaging Toshindo as a whole. I'm not denigrating Steve Hayes as a martial artist or a person. (I've even said nice things about him.) I'm saying that in this particular case he is stepping outside of his expertise and doing his students a disservice.

He may be but thats not really our concernthats between him and his students

 

[ballen0351]

Bottom line is I agree its not the best move. I wouldnt try it. BUT I also not willing to write it off as total crap either off a 3 min youtube clip. Esp when the background of the man is generally accepted as positive. You want to technically critique what hes doing that good we can all learn from it. But to laugh or make fun of, or belittle the man or the style which some have done here isn't acceptable in my opinion. With that we can go round and round here as long as you want but I think I just agree to disagree.

 

[Hanzou]

But against a scissors lock? Maybe, I don't know, I don't use a scissors lock, I use closed guard. And again, I ain't that good a grappler, I'm not a complete slouch, I can grapple, but that one there....not for me. And, again, I have no idea what context any of this was in. I just wish they hadn't had the opening credit of "passing guard variation."

The clip is four minutes long. Maybe the class or seminar was a couple hours long. Kind of a small, out of context thing to judge IMO. Especially if it wasn't meant against the game of guard.

I think you're giving them far too much credit. That clip was pretty heavily advertised by Toshindo as a guard pass variation until it was ridiculed throughout the web, and the comments were disabled. It's also supposedly featured in Hayes' DVD series on Toshindo ground fighting (Earth) techniques. So clearly, Toshindo and Hayes thought it was a super-awesome Ninja technique that the world should see.

I'm not sure the distinction between the guard or body scissors matters a whole lot. I've squeezed people in the ribs with the guard before, just to add a bit more pressure. Usually only against untrained people. Also pushing them backwards with your hips is a method of posture control while in the position, so while you typically want to pull someone into guard, pushing them away is a strategy as well.

I would just note that Hayes was kind of blending aspects of the two together. Maybe he views the guard as being the same thing as the scissor hold? Either way, its a very flawed technique.

 

[Hanzou]

I can say as someone that Broke his tailbone before slipping on the ice and falling onto stairs that it HURTS. If I were to use that technique I wouldn't aim for the meat of the butt I'd aim for the bone in the crack

:lol:

Yeah, that's about the response I anticipated.

 

[geezer]

Jeez Louise, enough about that Hayes clip already. We've established that Hanzou is a rude son of a gun, whereas others are more careful and condsiderate in their comments. Still if you are teaching stuff that isn't right-on, you have to expect criticism. Once in a while I've essentially done what Hayes did. You know, strayed from what I knew well and showed stuff that I only had a half baked grasp of. And it was wrong to do that, at least without doing as Danny T. suggested and presenting openly as "stuff I'm still just working on". One time I even injured myself. Guess I got my come-uppance, eh?

Anyway, I'm kinda glad Hanzou posted the Hayes clip and the follow-up with the other ninja group. It really opened my eyes, and made this thread really lively! Admit it guys, Hanzou is a little edgy, but give him some credit. He makes this place interesting.

 

[geezer]

:lol:

Yeah, that's about the response I anticipated.

OK Hanzou, that was totally uncalled for. --I just snorted my coffee out my nose and all over my monitor. :lol2: